Chuck Britz stereo mixes of Today and Summer Days

[Andrew G. Doe]

I've just posted the distilled essence of that I've said here over on the relevant thread on the Hoffman board. I am now sitting back and waiting to see what transpires. 

[c-man]

Summer Days Tracks recorded (either inst or vox) @ Columbia:
California Girls
Summer Means New Love
Your Summer Dream

I think you mean "And Your Dream Comes True," not "Your Summer Dream," which was on Surfer Girl.

And add to the list:

You're So Good To Me
The Girl From New York City
I'm Bugged At My Ol' Man
Amusement Parks USA
Salt Lake City
Let Him Run Wild

Pretty sure "The Girl From NYC" was recorded entirely at Western, vocals and all.  The final vocal overdubs for this one are included in the "Unsurpassed Masters" series, where those for the other tracks mentioned are not ("Amusement Parks USA" and "Let Him Run Wild" both had an original set of vocals recorded at Western, which are included on the "UM" set, but those vocals were later ditched in favor of new vocals recorded on Columbia's 8-track).

[DonnyL]

was PET SOUNDS mixed in one session at the same studio?  if so, it would have to have been Columbia unless the 8-track tapes were dubbed to 4-track and mixed elsewhere.  And MOST of the songs (the ones with the final multi-tracks on 4-track) would have been mixed from a 4-track machine, not 8-track.  I'm assuming that Columbia had a 4-track machine as well.  incidentally, the machines of this era are customizable, meaning you can change a 8-track machine to a 4-track by changing the tape guides and headstack and using only 4 of the electronics channels.  

[Andrew G. Doe]

was PET SOUNDS mixed in one session at the same studio?  if so, it would have to have been Columbia unless the 8-track tapes were dubbed to 4-track and mixed elsewhere.  And MOST of the songs (the ones with the final multi-tracks on 4-track) would have been mixed from a 4-track machine, not 8-track.  I'm assuming that Columbia had a 4-track machine as well.  incidentally, the machines of this era are customizable, meaning you can change a 8-track machine to a 4-track by changing the tape guides and headstack and using only 4 of the electronics channels.  

In 'that era' (1965-66) there was only one 8-track, and as Columbia engineers built it, essentially, out of Ampex spares, I doubt they designed a head-change facility into it. 

Mark's piece makes it quite clear - most of the time Brian took the Western/Gold Star multitracks to Columbia and mixed them down to mono on one track of the 8-track. Columbia had 4-track consoles too, of course.

The final Pet Sounds session was on April 13th 1966, and the album was mastered on the 16th (a Saturday), so the album was mixed (the previously released singles excepted) in two days at the most... unless, of course, Brian was mixing as he went along, but Steve Douglas's statements argue against that. That said, according to Badman (I know, I know...), Brian held mixing sessions on 2/16, 3/3 and 3/13.

Y'know what ? I need to:

win the lottery...
fly to LA...
set up camp in the Capitol archives...

Dream on, baby. 

[Mikie]

Regarding the final stereo mixes for songs in the Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Masters Series. Can those tracks be considered the original “Chuck Britz” stereo mixes for each song or were the takes and vocal over-dubs compiled by the bootlegger to make one final stereo mix?  And stuff like the entire Party album in stereo. Was that Britz’s stereo mix or somebody else’s?

Were those SOT’s the same multi-track masters that Mark Linett used for his stereo mixes? ‘Cause some of them sound damn good!

As an aside:

Al Jardine: “I saw it. There would be people rolling tape behind people rolling tape, secret tape machines running in different rooms when you're mastering. People were running two-track machines while we were mastering in another room, and they were taking it. They were just as good as masters. It's gotta drive poor Capitol Records crazy. I feel sorry for them, but well, hell, they made a shitload of money anyway."

[Beach Head]

Pretty sure "The Girl From NYC" was recorded entirely at Western, vocals and all.

Based on the evidence on UM 9, I think you're right.  But that's not what AGD says on Bellagio 10452:

 May 24 - Summer Days... session: You're So Good To Me/The Girl From New York City/
       I'm Bugged At My Ol' Man /And Your Dream Comes True vocals [Columbia]

 

[DonnyL]

was PET SOUNDS mixed in one session at the same studio?  if so, it would have to have been Columbia unless the 8-track tapes were dubbed to 4-track and mixed elsewhere.  And MOST of the songs (the ones with the final multi-tracks on 4-track) would have been mixed from a 4-track machine, not 8-track.  I'm assuming that Columbia had a 4-track machine as well.  incidentally, the machines of this era are customizable, meaning you can change a 8-track machine to a 4-track by changing the tape guides and headstack and using only 4 of the electronics channels.  

In 'that era' (1965-66) there was only one 8-track, and as Columbia engineers built it, essentially, out of Ampex spares, I doubt they designed a head-change facility into it.  

Mark's piece makes it quite clear - most of the time Brian took the Western/Gold Star multitracks to Columbia and mixed them down to mono on one track of the 8-track. Columbia had 4-track consoles too, of course.

The final Pet Sounds session was on April 13th 1966, and the album was mastered on the 16th (a Saturday), so the album was mixed (the previously released singles excepted) in two days at the most... unless, of course, Brian was mixing as he went along, but Steve Douglas's statements argue against that. That said, according to Badman (I know, I know...), Brian held mixing sessions on 2/16, 3/3 and 3/13.

Y'know what ? I need to:

win the lottery...
fly to LA...
set up camp in the Capitol archives...

Dream on, baby.  

so columbia put together their 8-track?  i ask because ampex did build custom 8 tracks 1965 and before and most of their machines are modular -- you can change pretty easily from 4 to 8 track.  but in any case, i assumed that they had 4-track decks as well.

so no one knows when and where exactly PET SOUNDS was mixed?  which means the original story from Steve Hoffman could be partially true.  Chuck Britz could have very well made stereo mixes from the 4 track tapes for a foreign market, at least for a few songs.  the story about mixing SUMMER DAYS to stereo doesn't make much sense though.

another idea is that hoffman might be wrong in that britz mixed them ... he might just assume that it was britz.  maybe they were done at western by someone else per capitol's request?  it would make sense that they were done in the britz style of inst. center, vocals hard left and right due to the limitations of the backing track locked in mono.  also, most consoles did not have panning, so the only options were LEFT - CENTER - RIGHT

[Beach Head]

I think we've collectively proven (at least to my satisfaction) that, purely from the evidence of the prevailing technical conditions at the time, Chuck couldn't have mixed down parts of Summer Days... and Pet Sounds at Capitol, or indeed anywhere else except Columbia.

Ummm ... that's not actually what Hoffman said.

Quoting directly from his comments, these were his main points:

(1) "Chuck Britz mixed TODAY in stereo, but Brian refused to OK the test cut."

(2) "The SUMMER DAZE album was mixed to stereo AT CAPITOL FROM THE WESTERN MULTIS."

(3) "Chuck Britz did make a stereo tape of four songs from PET SOUNDS for a Jukebox disk for another country. Unissued but the stereo was: MUSIC CENTER, VOICES LEFT/RIGHT."

Now, point-by-point:

(1) Hoffman's claim about a stereo TODAY mix seems perfectly reasonable. No parts of TODAY were recorded on 8-track, so there would have been no great difficulty in mixing the album to stereo, just as every previous Beach Boys album had been. And if it was mixed to stereo, it seems logical that Brian would have had Britz do it at Western, just as he did with every previous Beach Boys album.

(2) Hoffman never says Britz did the SUMMER DAYS stereo mix. He simply says it was done at Capitol. I've never seen anything about Capitol having an 8-track in 1965, so that part of Hoffman's claim seems doubtful. But if he's simply mistaken about where it took place, then it seems reasonable that it could have been done - only at Columbia and probably not by Britz.

(3) Since only five of the PET SOUNDS tracks were recorded using 8-track technology, there's no reason that a stereo EP couldn't have been mixed and assembled by Britz (at Western) from the remaining eight tracks. Even without the five 8-track songs, you could assemble a great stereo EP. Start with "Sloop John B" and "Caroline No," then pick any two of "You Still Believe In Me," "That's Not Me," "Don't Talk," etc. Even one of the instrumental tracks wouldn't have been out of place on a stereo EP. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me!

[Andrew G. Doe]

1 - No idea why you're raising this point, as I haven't before. I've limited my comments purely to Summer Days... and Pet Sounds. PS: Surfin' Safari was not mixed to stereo, by anyone, anywhere.

2 - The original poster introduced Chuck into the equation and I picked it up and ran with it, spuriously of course (mea culpa): but as you rightly point out, whoever the engineer was, it couldn't have been done anywhere on the west coast except Columbia. From his statement about the Western multis being used, it seems possible Hoffman has either forgotten, or didn't know, about Brian using Columbia.

3 - Again, basically true: however, I find that an EP which would of necessity omit two of the best tracks, indeed the two tracks that were to comprise the next single, to be somewhat less than 'perfectly reasonable'. I also find the vague phrase "for another country", and that there seems to have been no documentation of exactly which tracks were mixed, curious. Hoffman's writing is quite clever here: he states "I only go by the actual Capitol Studio files and they tell me that Capitol had a standing order for every Beach Boys recording to be sent to Capitol in a mono and stereophonic form.", from which one might assume that subsequent statements about stereo mixes by whomever, wherever were also sourced from Capitol files. Maybe they were, maybe not, which is why I'd dearly love to see those files. There's too much gray in this picture, but one thing has emerged: whoever mixed the 8-track multis had to have done it at Columbia.

[petsite]

As to stereo mixes from Pet Sounds, Bruce Johnston talked about fooling around (probably with Curt Becher) and making some stereo mixes of songs in the early 80s. Because the band tracks were mono on one track, the stereo mixes were mostly inst track dead center with the vox panned left and right. Kind of like some of the SOT mixes of this material.

[Myk Luhv]

Why did Brian stop doing stand-alone mono mixes in 1968 with Friends, anyway? Did he like the possibilities of recording in stereo at that point and decided to move to that from mono, or did he get strong-armed into doing it by someone (or groups of someone) else?

edit: Regarding Brian's use of Columbia's mixing board: For what it's worth, Desper chimed in [from this old archive of a message board (2002)] that "Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date."

[Andrew G. Doe]

edit: Regarding Brian's use of Columbia's mixing board: For what it's worth, Desper chimed in [from this old archive of a message board (2002)] that "Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date."

That's a very odd statement... given that during Desper's tenure, the only live dates they did with Brian were in Hawaii, and for those they rented 2 3M 8-tracks from Wally Heider, and the Whiskey shows, which I don't believe were recorded. Brian didn't use Columbia, as far as we know, after 4/7/67. Odd.

[the captain]

I think that's an accidental misstatement by Mr. Desper. In context, he doesn't see to be referring to live performances as in concerts, but possibly just "live" as in "recording: the light is on." More complete context is:

Now let's bring this discussion back to Brian Wilson. When he started, all the studios were unionized, including the engineers. (I myself am a member of IATSE, local 695 Hollywood.) He could deal with the musian's union. He was even part of that. But a typical Columbia or Capitol studio session would find the union engineers mercilessly stopping a session for their break when the red-second-hand hit the 12 o'clock mark exactly. I mean, they didn't care if you were recording the best lead since sliced bread. Even if you only had three notes to go -- BANG -- the recording engineer would press the stop button, the mixer would close the master fader, and walk away to their smoke and coffee. This would drive poor Brian up the wall. I mean, you can't turn on creativity like a faucet. As a musician, you know what "getting into a groove" is all about. So Brian has a studio full of musicians or even full of his BB group of singers -- they have finally, after fifty minutes of rehearsal, found their "groove" and -- BANG!! It's break time for the engineers. The musician's will continue (into overtime of course) but not the union engineers. You may have lost that "groove" forever.

This is the reason that Brian ventured over to Western (at 6000 Sunset Blvd.), one of the first non-union or "independent" studios to spring up in Hollywood. There he met Chuck Britz and fell in love with Studio 3. No more stopping just because the clock said 12:00. Now when he found his "groove" he could play it out. I would venture to say that one of the reasons the so called "smile sessions" came to be incomplete was because of all the false starts from union rules of those studios. And to top things off -- Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date. Very frustrating for talent such as Brian's. Over at Western, Chuck welcomed Brian's involvement -- and they both went on to make many great records.

Today, most union shops are now motion picture and television or broadcasting facilities. The independent recording studio deals with R&R, Jazz, and that kind of stuff.

http://surfermoon.com/essays/desperarchive.html

[Beach Head]

I find that an EP which would of necessity omit two of the best tracks, indeed the two tracks that were to comprise the next single, to be somewhat less than 'perfectly reasonable'.

You mean, kinda like the Japanese Party EP not including "Barbara Ann"? (For the record, it included "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away," "Hully Gully" and the Party versions of "I Get Around" and "Little Deuce Coupe.")

And then there's 4-By The Beach Boys, which doesn't include the best track ("I Get Around") from the All Summer Long album.

We don't know when in 1966 Britz is supposed to have assembled a stereo Pet Sounds EP. If it were done after the "Wouldn't It Be Nice"/"God Only Knows" single, it might have been intended to further promote the album, perhaps with an eye toward breaking other Pet Sounds tracks for airplay (much like 4-By The Beach Boys did for All Summer Long). Therefore, it wouldn't have included those two "best tracks."

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think that's an accidental misstatement by Mr. Desper. In context, he doesn't see to be referring to live performances as in concerts, but possibly just "live" as in "recording: the light is on." More complete context is:

Now let's bring this discussion back to Brian Wilson. When he started, all the studios were unionized, including the engineers. (I myself am a member of IATSE, local 695 Hollywood.) He could deal with the musian's union. He was even part of that. But a typical Columbia or Capitol studio session would find the union engineers mercilessly stopping a session for their break when the red-second-hand hit the 12 o'clock mark exactly. I mean, they didn't care if you were recording the best lead since sliced bread. Even if you only had three notes to go -- BANG -- the recording engineer would press the stop button, the mixer would close the master fader, and walk away to their smoke and coffee. This would drive poor Brian up the wall. I mean, you can't turn on creativity like a faucet. As a musician, you know what "getting into a groove" is all about. So Brian has a studio full of musicians or even full of his BB group of singers -- they have finally, after fifty minutes of rehearsal, found their "groove" and -- BANG!! It's break time for the engineers. The musician's will continue (into overtime of course) but not the union engineers. You may have lost that "groove" forever.

This is the reason that Brian ventured over to Western (at 6000 Sunset Blvd.), one of the first non-union or "independent" studios to spring up in Hollywood. There he met Chuck Britz and fell in love with Studio 3. No more stopping just because the clock said 12:00. Now when he found his "groove" he could play it out. I would venture to say that one of the reasons the so called "smile sessions" came to be incomplete was because of all the false starts from union rules of those studios. And to top things off -- Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date. Very frustrating for talent such as Brian's. Over at Western, Chuck welcomed Brian's involvement -- and they both went on to make many great records.

Today, most union shops are now motion picture and television or broadcasting facilities. The independent recording studio deals with R&R, Jazz, and that kind of stuff.

http://surfermoon.com/essays/desperarchive.html

Agreed.  By "live" Desper means "not an Overdub session or Mixing session."

[c-man]

I think that's an accidental misstatement by Mr. Desper. In context, he doesn't see to be referring to live performances as in concerts, but possibly just "live" as in "recording: the light is on." More complete context is:

Now let's bring this discussion back to Brian Wilson. When he started, all the studios were unionized, including the engineers. (I myself am a member of IATSE, local 695 Hollywood.) He could deal with the musian's union. He was even part of that. But a typical Columbia or Capitol studio session would find the union engineers mercilessly stopping a session for their break when the red-second-hand hit the 12 o'clock mark exactly. I mean, they didn't care if you were recording the best lead since sliced bread. Even if you only had three notes to go -- BANG -- the recording engineer would press the stop button, the mixer would close the master fader, and walk away to their smoke and coffee. This would drive poor Brian up the wall. I mean, you can't turn on creativity like a faucet. As a musician, you know what "getting into a groove" is all about. So Brian has a studio full of musicians or even full of his BB group of singers -- they have finally, after fifty minutes of rehearsal, found their "groove" and -- BANG!! It's break time for the engineers. The musician's will continue (into overtime of course) but not the union engineers. You may have lost that "groove" forever.

This is the reason that Brian ventured over to Western (at 6000 Sunset Blvd.), one of the first non-union or "independent" studios to spring up in Hollywood. There he met Chuck Britz and fell in love with Studio 3. No more stopping just because the clock said 12:00. Now when he found his "groove" he could play it out. I would venture to say that one of the reasons the so called "smile sessions" came to be incomplete was because of all the false starts from union rules of those studios. And to top things off -- Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date. Very frustrating for talent such as Brian's. Over at Western, Chuck welcomed Brian's involvement -- and they both went on to make many great records.

Today, most union shops are now motion picture and television or broadcasting facilities. The independent recording studio deals with R&R, Jazz, and that kind of stuff.

http://surfermoon.com/essays/desperarchive.html

Agreed.  By "live" Desper means "not an Overdub session or Mixing session."

Early on, and maybe even sometimes later on, Brian had to mix backikng tracks "on the fly" while they were being recorded "live" (meaning everyone playing at once).  That's what's meant here by "live date".

[Andrew G. Doe]

4-By The Beach Boys[/b], which doesn't include the best track ("I Get Around") from the All Summer Long album.

Indeed it doesn't... for the outstanding reason that it was originally a US release (other markets merely followed suit) and "IGA" had already been a #1 hit two months before it was released (said EP, btw, was the first in a new Captiol product line, "4-By (insert Capitol artist here)", which never really took off: EPs back then were much more of a non-US thing). In fact, according to Capitol, "the new product will be complementary to the singles and albums by the artists and not be competitive with any of a performer's hot single product" [Billboard 9/12/64].

However, we're venturing into the realms of personal opinion here, as opposed to structured discussion, and the very vague nature of this whole thing is what makes me long to actually see those documents, or at least an abstract thereof.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think that's an accidental misstatement by Mr. Desper. In context, he doesn't see to be referring to live performances as in concerts, but possibly just "live" as in "recording: the light is on." More complete context is:

Now let's bring this discussion back to Brian Wilson. When he started, all the studios were unionized, including the engineers. (I myself am a member of IATSE, local 695 Hollywood.) He could deal with the musian's union. He was even part of that. But a typical Columbia or Capitol studio session would find the union engineers mercilessly stopping a session for their break when the red-second-hand hit the 12 o'clock mark exactly. I mean, they didn't care if you were recording the best lead since sliced bread. Even if you only had three notes to go -- BANG -- the recording engineer would press the stop button, the mixer would close the master fader, and walk away to their smoke and coffee. This would drive poor Brian up the wall. I mean, you can't turn on creativity like a faucet. As a musician, you know what "getting into a groove" is all about. So Brian has a studio full of musicians or even full of his BB group of singers -- they have finally, after fifty minutes of rehearsal, found their "groove" and -- BANG!! It's break time for the engineers. The musician's will continue (into overtime of course) but not the union engineers. You may have lost that "groove" forever.

This is the reason that Brian ventured over to Western (at 6000 Sunset Blvd.), one of the first non-union or "independent" studios to spring up in Hollywood. There he met Chuck Britz and fell in love with Studio 3. No more stopping just because the clock said 12:00. Now when he found his "groove" he could play it out. I would venture to say that one of the reasons the so called "smile sessions" came to be incomplete was because of all the false starts from union rules of those studios. And to top things off -- Brian could not touch the console at a union studio. I have seen a Columbia Studio engineer actually slap Brian's hand when, out of desperation, he would reach to make a fader move for a cue that the engineer forgot, while recording a live date. Very frustrating for talent such as Brian's. Over at Western, Chuck welcomed Brian's involvement -- and they both went on to make many great records.

Today, most union shops are now motion picture and television or broadcasting facilities. The independent recording studio deals with R&R, Jazz, and that kind of stuff.

http://surfermoon.com/essays/desperarchive.html

Agreed.  By "live" Desper means "not an Overdub session or Mixing session."

Early on, and maybe even sometimes later on, Brian had to mix backikng tracks "on the fly" while they were being recorded "live" (meaning everyone playing at once).  That's what's meant here by "live date".

I need a glossary of 60's studio argot. 

[XY]

Well, a PET SOUNDS EP was released in Europe in November 1966 with
God Only Knows, Here Today, Sloop John B & Wouldn't It Be Nice.

[Beach Head]

Well, a PET SOUNDS EP was released in Europe in November 1966 with God Only Knows, Here Today, Sloop John B & Wouldn't It Be Nice.

Coming that long after the release of the "God Only Knows"/"Wouldn't It Be Nice" single (July), would anybody have even blinked if it didn't include those two hits? 

[Beach Head]

the very vague nature of this whole thing is what makes me long to actually see those documents, or at least an abstract thereof.

Heartily agreed!

I wonder if Alan Boyd might have seen anything of the sort ...

Alan, you out there?

[Mikie]

Regarding the final stereo mixes for songs in the Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Masters Series. Can those tracks be considered the original “Chuck Britz” stereo mixes for each song or were the takes and vocal over-dubs compiled by the bootlegger to make one final stereo mix?  And stuff like the entire Party album in stereo. Was that Britz’s stereo mix or somebody else’s?

Were those SOT’s the same multi-track masters that Mark Linett used for his stereo mixes?

[DonnyL]

Regarding the final stereo mixes for songs in the Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Masters Series. Can those tracks be considered the original “Chuck Britz” stereo mixes for each song or were the takes and vocal over-dubs compiled by the bootlegger to make one final stereo mix?  And stuff like the entire Party album in stereo. Was that Britz’s stereo mix or somebody else’s?

Were those SOT’s the same multi-track masters that Mark Linett used for his stereo mixes?

the sea of tunes stuff are not proper "mixes" ... nothing like mixes that Chuck Britz would have done.  they are really just "transfers" of individual tracks to 2-track.  basically like listening to the raw multi-tracks.  some of those bootleg dubs sound like the levels were randomly adjusted.

[Andrew G. Doe]

the very vague nature of this whole thing is what makes me long to actually see those documents, or at least an abstract thereof.

Heartily agreed!

I wonder if Alan Boyd might have seen anything of the sort ...

Alan, you out there?

Just went on a short vacation. I'll ask, but he's more on the BRI archive side of things, not Capitol files. However, he might know a man who can...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, a PET SOUNDS EP was released in Europe in November 1966 with God Only Knows, Here Today, Sloop John B & Wouldn't It Be Nice.

Coming that long after the release of the "God Only Knows"/"Wouldn't It Be Nice" single (July), would anybody have even blinked if it didn't include those two hits? 

In Europe, and especially France, EP's were the dominant non-LP format. Not so much in the UK, to the extent that the separate EP chart was discontinued 12/16/67 (at which point the #1 was... The Beach Boys Hits EP, at the end of a continuous 84-week run, over 30 of those at #1).