Why fans rejecting Smiley Smile or Love You bothers me.

[Mike's Beard]

Much of "Love You" sounds like the musical equivalent of someone hit by a car learning how to walk all over again. That's the only way I can describe it. 

[grillo]

I've said it a million times on here, but Love You's songwriting is at least as technically interesting as anything on Today or PS. He's got major 7ths moving into minor 7ths with a 9th in the bass, which is pretty Bacharachian, and strange clustery chord sequences, so I cannot understand how these songs are frowned upon. Yeah, the productions aren't particularly dynamic, but the songs hold up.

[Mr. Cohen]

I've said it a million times on here, but Love You's songwriting is at least as technically interesting as anything on Today or PS. He's got major 7ths moving into minor 7ths with a 9th in the bass, which is pretty Bacharachian, and strange clustery chord sequences, so I cannot understand how these songs are frowned upon. Yeah, the productions aren't particularly dynamic, but the songs hold up.

I agree completely. In terms of chord changes and melodies, Brian's writing was as strong as it had ever been around the time of Love You (excepting maybe the Smile era). The difference is that he wasn't as interested in realizing his songwriting as a full production. So, instead, he built upon his basic piano "demos" with synthesizers and drum machines. He added a few real instruments in as overdubs, but it wasn't a common practice. Carl Wilson probably added most of the electric guitar parts without much, if any, oversight from Brian.

The very nature of synthesizers, being somewhat rigid sounding instruments (especially in the 70s), necessitated that Brian make simpler sounding arrangements. The crazy horn parts on some of the 15 Big Ones material (some of which wasn't released), as well as tracks like "Had To Phone Ya" or "Michael Row the Boat Ashore",  make me think that Brian could have come up with more complex arrangements if he wanted to. He just didn't feel like it. For whatever reason, it didn't excite him.  He was content to work with synthesizers. I also think that he avoided more intricate harmonies because that sweet sound hearkened back to the BBs early days, and I don't think Brian was eager to return to that sound. Things like the fade out to "Melt Away" or "One For the Boys" make me feel like Brian never really lost that ability, at least as much as some people thought.

What people don't know is that much of Smiley Smile, for example, was recorded in a similar manner. Brian would lay down a demo of a song on his detuned piano , after which he and the group would add various instrumental parts. Then, when they were finished, Brian would wipe most of, if not all of, the piano track off from the finished song. That droning Baldwin organ usually was all that was left to hold the tracks together after that, giving Smiley Smile it's characteristic sound. Basically, the piano functioned like a click track for the group to record to.

On some Love You tracks it was possible for Brian to wipe out the piano track, like on Airplane, but other songs needed it still to fill out the song. Again, though, you see that Brian hadn't really changed as much as you thought. He was basically already working that way as early as '67, when he was 'still' a genius.

So, ultimately, for me, it's easy to see how this is a natural extension of what Brian had always been doing, and not as out there as you might first be tempted think.

[Paulos]

The first time I heard Love You I thought 'what the foda is this?'  

It took until maybe the third or fourth listen when it suddenly clicked and I started grinning like a maniac, such a whacked out, sad, funny and intruiging album. Lyrically it sucks bad yet the naive charm of the lyrics somehow overcomes this.

As for Smiley Smile I think it was the second of the twofers that I got and I liked it immediately - trippy, sparse, funny and eerie all at once. When reading the booklet I was impatiently waiting for Leaf to shut up about whatever this SMiLE album was and to just tell me about Smiley! (I knew next to nothing about The Beach Boys back then  ).

Oh and it's probably blasphemy to say this but I far prefer Smiley Smile to Wild Honey.

[buddhahat]

I've said it a million times on here, but Love You's songwriting is at least as technically interesting as anything on Today or PS. He's got major 7ths moving into minor 7ths with a 9th in the bass, which is pretty Bacharachian, and strange clustery chord sequences, so I cannot understand how these songs are frowned upon. Yeah, the productions aren't particularly dynamic, but the songs hold up.

I agree completely. In terms of chord changes and melodies, Brian's writing was as strong as it had ever been around the time of Love You (excepting maybe the Smile era). The difference is that he wasn't as interested in realizing his songwriting as a full production. So, instead, he built upon his basic piano "demos" with synthesizers and drum machines. He added a few real instruments in as overdubs, but it wasn't a common practice. Carl Wilson probably added most of the electric guitar parts without much, if any, oversight from Brian.

The very nature of synthesizers, being somewhat rigid sounding instruments (especially in the 70s), necessitated that Brian make simpler sounding arrangements. The crazy horn parts on some of the 15 Big Ones material (some of which wasn't released), as well as tracks like "Had To Phone Ya" or "Michael Row the Boat Ashore",  make me think that Brian could have come up with more complex arrangements if he wanted to. He just didn't feel like it. For whatever reason, it didn't excite him.  He was content to work with synthesizers. I also think that he avoided more intricate harmonies because that sweet sound hearkened back to the BBs early days, and I don't think Brian was eager to return to that sound. Things like the fade out to "Melt Away" or "One For the Boys" make me feel like Brian never really lost that ability, at least as much as some people thought.

What people don't know is that much of Smiley Smile, for example, was recorded in a similar manner. Brian would lay down a demo of a song on his detuned piano , after which he and the group would add various instrumental parts. Then, when they were finished, Brian would wipe most of, if not all of, the piano track off from the finished song. That droning Baldwin organ usually was all that was left to hold the tracks together after that, giving Smiley Smile it's characteristic sound. Basically, the piano functioned like a click track for the group to record to.

On some Love You tracks it was possible for Brian to wipe out the piano track, like on Airplane, but other songs needed it still to fill out the song. Again, though, you see that Brian hadn't really changed as much as you thought. He was basically already working that way as early as '67, when he was 'still' a genius.

So, ultimately, for me, it's easy to see how this is a natural extension of what Brian had always been doing, and not as out there as you might first be tempted think.

This is really interesting thanks for the info.

Yes I hear a lot of complex quality in the Love You songs. Even the ones that sound dumb and out there like Johnny Carson have a lot of hidden depth and stand up to repeated listening imo. The more melancholy numbers from solar system on move me as much as his most brilliant pet sounds/smile era stuff - perhaps more as they just have so much sadness i them.

If Adult/Child had been released it may well have a similar reputation but again it was another symptom that Brian wasn't doing well and neither were the group. Terribly halfhearted productions on some songs and abysmal lyrics.

I don't agree at all. I think adult Child is clearly a weak set of songs with very few high points. Love You has a lot to offer if you can get past the production (which personally I enjoy).

[DSamore]

Oh and it's probably blasphemy to say this but I far prefer Smiley Smile to Wild Honey.

No way! Smiley is WAY better.

[Paulos]

Oh and it's probably blasphemy to say this but I far prefer Smiley Smile to Wild Honey.

No way! Smiley is WAY better.

Thats what I'm saying, Smiley Smile is great! It's just that it seems in Beach Boys fandom that Wild Honey is untouchable and someone on the shutdown board once described me not liking Wild Honey as 'horrific'!

[drbeachboy]

Love You is supposed to sound the way it does. The songs were recorded that way on purpose. There wasn't slip shod production, etc.  No wonder The Beach Boys were never able to progress in the 70's.  You try to change your sound, give your vocals a bit of an edge and try to stay current, but you can't, because everyone expects your songs and your vocals to be a certain way. No wonder they soon became a traveling jukebox of hits. We caused it to happen. The main reason why I love the album so much is because it was raw, fresh and new sounding. It was the last really creative and exciting album that they made. This kind of thinking happens once you get pigeon-holed.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Love You is supposed to sound the way it does. The songs were recorded that way on purpose. There wasn't slip shod production, etc.  No wonder The Beach Boys were never able to progress in the 70's.  You try to change your sound, give your vocals a bit of an edge and try to stay current, but you can't, because everyone expects your songs and your vocals to be a certain way. No wonder they soon became a traveling jukebox of hits. We caused it to happen. The main reason why I love the album so much is because it was raw, fresh and new sounding. It was the last really creative and exciting album that they made. This kind of thinking happens once you get pigeon-holed.

Another spot-on post about Love You, drbeachboy. The songs were recorded that way on purpose. I believe Brian was going for THAT sound - synthesizers, moog bass, minimal potato chip can drums, rougher vocals (which I don't especially like), adult/child lyrics, with an ATTITUDE. When I listen to Love You, which is more of a Brian Wilson solo album than his actual solo albums, I hear Brian's interpretation of what LOVE is to him - at that moment in time.  It's real. It's honest 1976 Brian Wilson - warts, craziness, heart, "fun", recovery, Beach Boys, and all. He laid out his soul on Love You. Yeah, he did it fast, probably didn't finish it, and split.

But, Brian always had a particular "sound" which he was going for in all of his albums. That's why they all sounded so different, so fresh, so new.  From the surf & turf rock & roll to the Spectorian Today/Summer Days/Pet Sounds trilogy to SMiLE. Even Wild Honey, Friends, and his his early 70's stuff had a unique "sound". He kept changing his sound all the way through to Love You. Then it stopped...

[drbeachboy]

I remember interviews with both Carl & Mike, and how they explained how Brian heard everything in his head before he even went in the studio.  He knew exactly what he was going for when he recorded Love You. As for vocals, on songs like Let Us Go On This Way, with the arrangement that was used, I can't imagine the vocals being smooth and clean on this song. This is a punchy song that needed an edgy vocal. Even Roller Skating Child needs those edgy background vocals, especially the way the chorus rolls along. I think Brian & Dennis' background vocals sound is very cool on Honkin' Down The Highway. Brian's rough vocals keep I Bet He's Nice from becoming corny. He makes me believe he is singing from his heart and emotions. Same thing with Let's Put Our Hearts Together, only he and Marilyn could pull that song off. A sweet vocal on that tune has cornball written all over it. Brian's vocal makes me believe he meant every word in that song.  I would have took similar types of albums like Love You over anything they released after that point. All of their post Love You albums had their moments and flashes of genius, but were never as fun and inventive as this one. I wish The Beach Boys had moved a little toward New Wave; as most of it really is nothing more than a harder version of 60's 3 chord rock and roll. A New Wave album from The Beach Boys would have sold a million units. ;-)

[Reverend Rock]

Great post, drbeachboy!

Love You has been praised by a number of music critics as being musically prophetic of the synth-driven directions of 80s pop.  And interestingly enough, Brian in some ways took up right where Love You left off for his first official solo album.  He likes electronic keyboards, simple as that.  You can still hear it on that cute little "Love You-esque" snippet at the end of the Lucky Old Sun project.

I'd be not at all displeased to hear him do a whole new album of stuff like that.  It'd be fun.

(I'm listening to Love You as I add a few lines to this post.  It's strange how this album can either sound insane or sound like a work of sheer genius depending on your mood.  This is one of those times that it smacks of genius to me.  It's amazing, really.)

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Brilliant posts, guys!

My thoughts on Smiley Smile are pretty well known for long-term viewers of BB message boards. Suffice it to say, it is the album that turned me on to the Beach Boys (after previously buying the 1988 solo album on cassette for 99 cents back in 1995).

Love You...well...I love it. In fact, the only thing that made me like it less was hear the Adult/Child tracks (esp. Everybody Wants to Live) and the cover of You've Lost that Lovin Feeling. Those tracks should have been released. And yeah, the vocals are part of its charm. But then I'm a fan of Tom Waits, so yeah...

[Mr. Cohen]

Love You has been praised by a number of music critics as being musically prophetic of the synth-driven directions of 80s pop.

Strangely, the simplistic synth melodies used on a lot of rap songs released in the last few years remind me of Love You. I'll hear them on the radio and just be astonished. It really makes Brian seem like some kind of crazy trailblazer, so crazy you could never follow him.

[Reverend Rock]

...And yeah, the vocals are part of its charm. But then I'm a fan of Tom Waits, so yeah...

Yep.  Once you manage to get over the idea that Beach Boys always have to sound like Choir Boys, it begins to all make sense...

[sockittome]

It should never bother anyone when someone states their opinion.  I happen to dislike both albums.  That's my opinion.  I've tried for many years to like Smiley.  Every so often I go back to it, just to make sure I'm not missing something, but to this day, it just doesn't cut it for me.  IMO, "Wonderful" and "Wind Chimes" on Smiley don't even come close to the SMiLE versions.  I do prefer the Smiley version of "Vegetables" though.  It sounds more cohesive than the demo-sounding SMiLE cut.  

Give me "Wild Honey" any day.  It rocks!

P.S. I would never discredit anyone for liking the above mentioned albums.  Diff'rent strokes, ya know!

[Reverend Rock]

Love You has been praised by a number of music critics as being musically prophetic of the synth-driven directions of 80s pop.

Strangely, the simplistic synth melodies used on a lot of rap songs released in the last few years remind me of Love You. I'll hear them on the radio and just be astonished. It really makes Brian seem like some kind of crazy trailblazer, so crazy you could never follow him.

Yes...and has anyone compared BWPS to Sufjan Stevens' last three projects?  I think the "crazy trailblazer" has a new follower in Sufjan.  Not that Sufjan sounds like a retread of Brian Wilson, but he seems to be taking a general artistic direction that further explores the "Americana" aspect of SMiLE in it's completed form, finding his inspiration from distinctly vintage American sources and creating a fresh lyrical and musical expression thereby.

[DSamore]

I wish I could get into Stevens. As for Smiley, it is so mellow/trippy/odd/spooky sounding at times I thought I'd re-read this thread and play it again on vinyl before I teach. I teach middle school and have been playing the Pet Sounds A Capella stuff for the kids (especially "Wouldn't It Be Nice?", "Sloop John B", and "I throw in "Our Prayer") I have converted many of the younger generation! They ask for more...which I always oblige them of course.

[Mr. Cohen]

It should never bother anyone when someone states their opinion.

Well, I'll admit that the topic post was a drunken screed of Lutherian proportions. It doesn't even really make sense to me. Why I wound up here when I was drunk I'll never know....

[Mr. Cohen]

One last thing I'll say: imagine if "Roller Skating Child" had been released as a single like Brian wanted? Although I sincerely doubt it would have been a hit, I love that mental image of the song blasting out of people's car radios late at night.

[Mike's Beard]

Music is subjective so there is no right or wrong answer for if you like something or not (unless it's shite like The Black Eyed Peas). Having said that.....  

I'm stunned whenever I hear all this praise for "Love You". Half of it I find good to great but the other half............   Believe me I have tried over and over to appreciate the thing as a whole but the bad stuff I really just cannot stand. I think I have only physically been able to reach the end of "I Wanna Pick You Up" and "Solar System" about 3 times in my life. As I was particularly harsh on Love You not so long ago on a post, when this thread started I listened to the whole thing from start to finish for the first time in well over a year to see if my perspective had altered. It had. For the worse. I used to tolerate "Johnny Carson" but it had me positively cringing. I think I'll stick with my 8 song mini album I've created for my mp3 in the future and pretend the rest never existed! I just cannot see what others find endearing about lumpy, half finished 70's synth clunkers written by a mentally ill man who was often only writing so his shrink would let him take a hit off a joint. Enjoy!

[drbeachboy]

mikes beard. Is that like John Oates mustache? ;-) Not everything is brilliant on Love You. Nothing cringe worthy to me as you put it, but it is not perfect. Don't forget, this was Group Therapy.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Believe me I have tried over and over to appreciate the thing as a whole but the bad stuff I really just cannot stand. I think I have only physically been able to reach the end of "I Wanna Pick You Up" and "Solar System" about 3 times in my life.

There's still time. There will come a time when you want a dose of Brian Wilson in the 70's (most of Sunflower was recorded in 1969) and you'll turn to Love You. The album will slowly creep up your personal charts, eventually sitting nicely in the Top 5, comfortably resting behind Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Today, and Summer Days....

[Reverend Rock]

Believe me I have tried over and over to appreciate the thing as a whole but the bad stuff I really just cannot stand. I think I have only physically been able to reach the end of "I Wanna Pick You Up" and "Solar System" about 3 times in my life.

There's still time. There will come a time when you want a dose of Brian Wilson in the 70's (most of Sunflower was recorded in 1969) and you'll turn to Love You. The album will slowly creep up your personal charts, eventually sitting nicely in the Top 5, comfortably resting behind Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Today, and Summer Days....

If not before senility, then certainly by then, you will become a total Love You fan!

[MBE]

Believe me I have tried over and over to appreciate the thing as a whole but the bad stuff I really just cannot stand. I think I have only physically been able to reach the end of "I Wanna Pick You Up" and "Solar System" about 3 times in my life.

There's still time. There will come a time when you want a dose of Brian Wilson in the 70's (most of Sunflower was recorded in 1969) and you'll turn to Love You. The album will slowly creep up your personal charts, eventually sitting nicely in the Top 5, comfortably resting behind Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Today, and Summer Days....

I don't know I've been a fan 22 years and have had people tell me this before. If anything I like it less then I used to. I like some of the goofy oddball stuff Brian has done like "My Solution" or "Rollin Up To Heaven" but songs like "I Wanna Pick You Up" just don't do it. I will say getting back to the original topic that Smiley has grown on me a lot over time.

If I had to pick one album that is unfairly overlooked it would be "Surfin' USA". 

[Mr. Cohen]

I guess the goofiness of the lyrics don't bother me because I never found the BBs lyrics to be very good. I don't relate to their lyrics at all, except for the odd song or two. I mean, let's be honest, The BBs  don't hold much water from a literary perspective. I enjoy the BBs for their musical talents. At the least, the Love You lyrics are interesting in the sense that they are totally unique. I'll take that of the over the Jack Rieley 'stream of nonsense' style that dominated the BBs lyrics in the years prior to Brian's much ballyhooed return. Except, that is, for "A Day in the Life of a Tree". You have got to love that one.