50th Anniversary, The SMiLE box, the reunion, new material and things to come

[Nicko]

Cretinous and I mean everything down to the last dot on the i. Call me what you want-I could care really care less. Yes the Beatles did have Paul and John but they didn't have Dennis Wilson and that is all the they needed to have "stage presense"-not some rooster struttung around on stage, who thought he was God's gift to women.

Dennis absolutely was an important part of the appeal of the live shows. But, as mentioned before, he was stuck behind the drums most of the time. John and Paul had Ringo and George anyway.

It can't be argued though that having a frontman was right for The BBs. Almost 50 years as a successful live act says it all.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

[Jason]

I think it's safe to say that if Michael ever wore out his welcome in the Beach Boys, the other voting members of BRI would have fired him. But let's remember that Brian and Dennis were the only ones on record to ever have been fired from the Beach Boys. God love them both, but...

If Brian was really that hurt by Michael with regards to Smile, and Carl couldn't put up with Michael's antics onstage, both of them were quite upstanding and certainly would have had the balls to get the other voting entities of BRI to force Michael out of the group. Fact is, it never happened.

This isn't a pro-Michael post. If the other members really wanted him out, they would have thrown him out. It never happened. Blood does run thicker than water. The reason Dennis was banned for the better part of 1979 to 1983 was due to his inability to control himself on and off of the stage and as a reason to force him into getting help. And Brian was fired in order to cut him off from everything as a last-ditch attempt to force him to get help. They were a family. Family sticks together.

[Sheriff John Stone]

To really assess the importance or value of Mike Love, you almost have to do something difficult - forget about what you know about the group and just be a typical fan at a Beach Boys' concert. I've seen The Beach Boys about twenty times since 1978, and one thing always stands out - Mike Love is the star of the show. From the time Mike comes out singing, "Well East coast girls are hip..." to the ending "and we'll have fun, fun, fun...", Mike is the highlight of the show for most in attendance.

Yeah, that's MY opinion, and, no, I'm not trying to slight the other guys. I've watched the crowds; I've seen their smiles, heard their laughs. Mike is the one who talks to the people, the others barely utter a syllable. People on this (and other boards) criticize Mike's jokes, but I see the majority of the audience laughing at them. People also criticize Mike's wardrobe, but I think (other than the bed sheets and the suspenders) Mike always looked like a Beach Boy. I thought Mike looked the best in the striped shirts; I liked the gold vest era, and he popularized the Hawaiian shirt look. I also found his hats to be fine; I confess to going out and buying some like Mike's after seeing a BB show. And I say this in a totally heterosexual way - Mike looked the best in shorts.

People on boards criticize the cheerleaders, but EVERYTIME they came out, they were greeted by loud applause. Interesting. Give the people what they want? Did you ever listen to people as they were leaving the concert, walking to their cars? Who are they talking about? Who will they remember? What will they remember? I'll bet Mike Love is a part of it. Most fans at Beach Boys concerts didn't really know the stories behind the group; I get the feeling they came to see THE BEACH BOYS, not specifically Carl or Al or Dennis. And, again, I'm talking about the casual fan (which were most) at a Beach Boys' show. How many of those fans at BB concerts in the late 70's owned Pacific Ocean Blue? How many knew if it was Brian Wilson or Carl Wilson they were watching on guitar? How many knew Al Jardine's name?

Whether it was the jokes, the prancing around on stage, the corny sax solo, the car medley, the surf medley, the intros to the songs, or just hearing the nasal tone live - Mike was and is the most important Beach Boy on stage. It's no secret he is able to STILL tour successfully - with no Wilsons in attendance. And, again, I'm not slighting Brian, Dennis, or Carl. Or Al. But, simply, they couldn't do what Mike did, and, yes, I think what Mike did/does is important.

[Runaways]

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time. 

[Runaways]

cause he's a massive jerk who's behavior never showed much love for music except in how it'd get him money.  and his stage behavior/attire is a joke.  

but i give him credit for everything he's done.  and i don't think it's entirely his fault, i feel like Carl tried too hard.  there wasn't a fashion fad that he didn't miss out on. 

Care to elaborate what you mean specifically by Carl trying too hard? Sounds intriguing to me.
[/quote]

well first off, i love carl.  But i look at his fashion choice through the years after around 1967 and they're so bad.  it was like every cliche of rock n roll fashion he was into.  i mirror with dennis who eventually stayed away from the cliches and looks much better for it.  and i don't know where his creative edge went.  I remember an interview where he's asked the name of the new album and he says "still cruisin" and i swear i could see "eeeeyeaah..." on his face. 

[Nicko]

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time. 

Huh? I think you are replying to something that wasn't written there.

Mike hasn't sued for The BBs name as far as I know. Brian (or his management) have always been happy for him to use it. Mike just didn't want Al to use it and not to pay for it.

SJS was also talking about what the average concert-goer (rather than hardcore fan) thinks.

[oldsurferdude]

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time. 

absolutey correct-a legal decision does not necessarilymake it correct or true. No Wilsons no Jardine equals no Beach Boys. With the deaths of Dennis and Carl the real Group was long gone.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

cause he's a massive jerk who's behavior never showed much love for music except in how it'd get him money.  and his stage behavior/attire is a joke.  

but i give him credit for everything he's done.  and i don't think it's entirely his fault, i feel like Carl tried too hard.  there wasn't a fashion fad that he didn't miss out on.  

Care to elaborate what you mean specifically by Carl trying too hard? Sounds intriguing to me.

well first off, i love carl.  But i look at his fashion choice through the years after around 1967 and they're so bad.  it was like every cliche of rock n roll fashion he was into.  i mirror with dennis who eventually stayed away from the cliches and looks much better for it.  and i don't know where his creative edge went.  I remember an interview where he's asked the name of the new album and he says "still cruisin" and i swear i could see "eeeeyeaah..." on his face. 


Well, consider yourself lucky that nowadays you have a choice and can go see either Brian or Mike's Beach Boys! Or, you can live in a universe where the pluses of BOTH options are allowed to present themselves! Imagine that?

As for Carl: would you mind providing some photographic evidence of his jumping onto every rock fashion cliche bandwagon? Keep in mind, when we're talking about 1967-1998 that's almost 30 years. Fashion trends DO tend to happen and unhappen. You can't blame a rock star for fluctuating a bit fashion-wise. Who cares anyway? If you're looking at The beach Boys as a fashion critic, you're bound to be left scratching your head.
[/quote]

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time.  

absolutey correct-a legal decision does not necessarilymake it correct or true. No Wilsons no Jardine equals no Beach Boys. With the deaths of Dennis and Carl the real Group was long gone.

Jesus!!!! I hardly think Mike is out there presenting himself as "THE REAL BEACH BOYS! THE SAME BEACH BOYS AS 1965 AND IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE THAT DENNIS AND CARL ARE DEAD AND BRIAN ISN'T HERE"

Mike and Bruce's Beach Boys is just a version of The Beach Boys for live purposes so that they can keep touring/playing/making money/and doing what they do best! It's not supposed to be the end all be all...... And it's only a matter of time before Mike and Bruce (and Brian) will either be dead or infirm and there won't be ANY Beach Boys varient/or Brian out there at all.... Then we can all be happy, I guess!

[Runaways]

no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully). 

but what some believe is that even if they're using the name, it's not the beach boys.  actually i saw a commercial for them cause they were coming to my area and all the photos were of the early mid 60's band. the classic beach boys i guess.  i found that funny since only mike would be there.

[hypehat]

Well, you can't honestly say THE BEACH BOYS DIDN'T NEED MIKE LOVE OR A FRONTMAN, simply because Mike was always there! We have no way of speculating what The Beach Boys live career would have been without him. We certainly know they were able to succesfully get through countless shows without Dennis and several without Carl, tons and tons without Brian, and tons without Bruce! The Beach Boys really didn't need anyone or anything but the songs themselves! BUT they chose to tour relentlessly with Mike as a frontman and were mightily successful at it! Mike was just one aspect of a functioning machine: warts n all.

eh.  that band out there is the beach boys only cause Mike sued for the name.  you give me a choice and i'll choose to see Brian 100% of the time. 

absolutey correct-a legal decision does not necessarilymake it correct or true. No Wilsons no Jardine equals no Beach Boys. With the deaths of Dennis and Carl the real Group was long gone.

Absolutely wrong. Why is Al Jardine a beach boy and Mike Love not? if you're going on the no-wilsons-no-band stance, Love has more claim to be a Beach Boy than Al, seeing as he's related.

And Mike and Bruce's band is harmless anyway. If they were releasing new material under the name, that would be different. But they're just touring and giving the fans what they like, from orchestral shows to county fairs. Who cares?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

"no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully)."



What are you talking about? Mike co-wrote many many many Beach Boys songs! Many that are beloved. Some are big big huge hits! Correct: he is not THE songwriter, but he is certainly an important creative force in The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys in fact have no THE songwriter. Brian and Mike (as well as Gary Usher/Roger Christian/Tony Asher/Van Dyke Parks) dominated the sixties, while Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce AND Mike dominated the 70's ..... along with Brian!

None of this is secret or takes an insane amount of research to dig up!

Ok, I'm done. I'll leave this battle to someone else  

[Jason]

I highly, highly agree with the Good Sheriff.

From our earliest memories of the Beach Boys, more often than not we remember Michael's voice. Sure, Brian, Dennis, Carl, Al, Bruce, and Blondie featured vocally on many of their popular songs and I certainly do not deny them their deserved credit, but most times on the radio, if a Beach Boys song was played, it was usually a song with Michael on lead vocal. For me personally, as a young fan growing up with the hits on oldies radio back in the late 1980s, Michael was my favorite singer in the group. He had a certain cockiness about him that made those records he sang lead on very cool. It made the Beach Boys, as a hitmaking band, more than a mere pop vocal group. They were more rock 'n roll. In short, Michael had the arrogance required to be a great rock 'n roll frontman. Dennis had it as well, but his role as the main drummer unfortunately limited the exposure he would receive as a presence at the front of the stage.

As far as Brian, Carl, Al, and Bruce, having had the chance to front their own bands in a live setting, the results are very hit or miss.

With Brian, it would vary wildly depending on his mood that night. Certainly, in recent memory, while he's never really been hugely charismatic like Michael or Dennis, Brian was a more vocal presence beyond just introducing the next song, and he has been raucously funny and profane, even poking fun at himself, which is a LOT of fun to watch. I enjoy the fact that he does seem a lot more at ease in recent history - even during the Smile shows, where he supposedly "exorcised his demons", he wasn't as animated or spontaneous. His recent concerts, though...man. Amazing stuff. He's on fire. The recent shows have been a nice reminder of the spontaneity that Brian was known for, although at nearly 68, obviously he'll never recapture that same kind of mystique that he had at 23, 28, or even 34. But still...there's something there, and he's really been amazing lately in concert. And more power to him for it.

Carl...God love him to death. For all of his sheer, raw talent as guitarist, singer, and occasional writer, his solo career being little more than a hiccup on the radar is truly sad. His first LP consists of good songs but is ruined by the totally braindead production values, and Youngblood suffers from being too overproduced with some really embarrassing filler. As a live act, the poor man sounded nervous as hell fronting his own band. Perhaps that was to be expected, as he was so used to merely playing guitar or keyboards and singing the occasional lead with the Beach Boys, being on his own he was definitely out of his element. Ideally, he most likely preferred to be mainly anonymous onstage with the Beach Boys, deferring the attention to Michael, Dennis, and Brian when he was around. I seem to imply that Carl's modesty and humbleness are both some kind of a character flaw, but I don't mean that at all.

Al also sounds very nervous when he's fronting his band live. Occasionally he can be a lot of fun, but mostly when he's joking around with his sons. Like Carl, he preferred to be in the background. Nothing wrong with that. He wanted the innocence.

And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.

Honestly...my all-time favorite "frontman" moment wasn't from Michael, but from Dennis. I have a recording of the last 40 minutes of a gig in Cincinnati in April of 1979, and Dennis, as usual, came out for his You Are So Beautiful spot. By this point in any show, Dennis most likely was a sweaty mess and had a towel around his neck while he sang You Are So Beautiful. After he finished singing it this night, he said this -

"Thank you very much. What songs do you want to hear? Whaddaya wanna hear? (Riotous applause) Come on! (Even more riotous applause) LOUDER! (Even even more riotous applause) You're crazy!"

That gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. Dennis knew how to get the fans going in a way that Michael didn't.

[Runaways]

"no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully)."



What are you talking about? Mike co-wrote many many many Beach Boys songs! Many that are beloved. Some are big big huge hits! Correct: he is not THE songwriter, but he is certainly an important creative force in The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys in fact have no THE songwriter. Brian and Mike (as well as Gary Usher/Roger Christian/Tony Asher/Van Dyke Parks) dominated the sixties, while Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce AND Mike dominated the 70's ..... along with Brian!

None of this is secret or takes an insane amount of research to dig up!

Ok, I'm done. I'll leave this battle to someone else  

ugh...buddy, this is so  obvious you should know i meant more than just lyrics.  and don't start listing songs (without brian) where he wrote the main melody cause they're probably not very good.  and definitely don't mention the solo albums.

i give him full credit for his lyrics though.  he def had a hand in some of my favs.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Agreed with Richard on all points with a tad bit of disagreement in regards to Carl!

I think Carl actually matured (quite young, btw) into something of a commanding stage prescence. Sure, Mike was the dominant personality, Dennis was Dennis (nuff said) Al and Bruce were somewhere there on-stage, but Carl...... Carl had that great great speaking voice. A bit whispery, with this lovely so.cal lilt to it. Almost feminine, but very sensual and appealing. Don't even get me started on his singing voice (my fave singer ever) but he also had this way of singing into the microphone with hooded eyes peering out like he's imparting some timeless secret! He was definatly someone to swoon over in a sensetive guy mode that was much different than Dennis. He was also very gracious to audiences and was the musical focal point concert-wise.

Thing about the Beach Boys is, there was simply almost too much talent there to be understood and taken in! it's almost sad.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

"no i understand.  I don't have problem with them touring using the name obv.  They need to make money so they use the name.  mike was never the songwriter so can't expect new beach boys albums (thankfully)."



What are you talking about? Mike co-wrote many many many Beach Boys songs! Many that are beloved. Some are big big huge hits! Correct: he is not THE songwriter, but he is certainly an important creative force in The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys in fact have no THE songwriter. Brian and Mike (as well as Gary Usher/Roger Christian/Tony Asher/Van Dyke Parks) dominated the sixties, while Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce AND Mike dominated the 70's ..... along with Brian!

None of this is secret or takes an insane amount of research to dig up!

Ok, I'm done. I'll leave this battle to someone else  

ugh...buddy, this is so  obvious you should know i meant more than just lyrics.  and don't start listing songs (without brian) where he wrote the main melody cause they're probably not very good.  and definitely don't mention the solo albums.

i give him full credit for his lyrics though.  he def had a hand in some of my favs.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! Very well put and I respect where you're coming from!

Sumahama and Big Sur are two of my BB faves, but, ok, ok, I won't venture down that path!

Btw, we really don't know who wrote the main melody to what. That's where it gets tricky. Someone starts pounding out chords and another guy comes up with lyrics and starts singing them and of course, he has to sing them in some sort of melody, and when he does this, it's likely he's coming up with the main melody! Or, someone starts pounding out chords and mumbling nonsense to a vocal melody and another guy turns that vocal melody into words! It happens in all sorts of tricky little ways. So, we honestly don't know who did what each song-wise.

[donald]

""And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.""

It is duly noted that the Bruce solo LP wa entitled "Going Public".

Having said that I like/d Bruce's role in the band.  I like EH, Nearest Faraway Place, and Disney Girls.  Sweet stuff.

[oldsurferdude]

""And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.""

It is duly noted that the Bruce solo LP wa entitled "Going Public".

Having said that I like/d Bruce's role in the band.  I like EH, Nearest Faraway Place, and Disney Girls.  Sweet stuff.

Bruce-squeeky clean buttercream-all sugar no salt-    b o r i n g

[Jason]

Bruce is a talented performer, even if his kind of music doesn't sit too well with us rock 'n rollers on here. He's always been a great keyboard player, and his sweet tenor is nice to hear, even though it's quite frightening nowadays. In the early 1970s with the Beach Boys he was very good at getting the crowd involved along with Michael and Dennis, if only because he was the one besides those two who actually talked to the crowd.

I do enjoy Bruce's songs a lot. Disney Girls and I Write The Songs are classic in my eyes. Tears In The Morning and Deirdre, while overly "sweet" are certainly a good example of the maturity evident on Sunflower. The Nearest Faraway Place is a great instrumental, although the Van McCoy string arrangement does more harm than good in my opinion; I much prefer the master without the string arrangement that goes around. She Believes In Love Again is so openly 80s that I can't help but love it, but it's a nudge nudge wink wink kind of love. Slow Summer Dancin' is pleasant enough, but it's really half a song. Endless Harmony works, if only for the complete irony it offers after years of hindsight, and it's one of two inoffensive tracks on Keepin' The Summer Alive, which I consider their all-time worst LP (other is Goin' On).

Brand New Old Friends is an unacknowledged classic, in my opinion. He wrote that one for Curt Boettcher's aborted California Music project in 1977, and it's a true hidden gem. It was later ruined by Terry Melcher as Happy Endings.

[Jonathan Blum]

I'm saying the evidence tells me that Brian was not unbalanced by lack of enthusiasm or even insult [from the Boys, or VDP, or Capitol, or some guy off the street], the bit about enthusiasm, insult, and mental illness is sort of speculation it seems to me. To my mind, neither was he confused, aimless, or obsessive but confident, prepared and selective.

But...  I think the point The Don made in his great post is that you can't tell from the outside evidence what's going on on the inside.

If you saw my wife, you'd never know she has all sorts of social phobia.  See her on a discussion panel at a convention or something, and she looks like a star -- outgoing, funny, confident, bold, take-no-prisoners.  But then get her away from that setting... and she's shaking.  And it lingers...  Bits of confrontation from these things stay with her -- we're about to go off to another convention next weekend, and she's dreading seeing some people she disagreed with vehemently about a year and a half ago.  Bitchy things people have said about her on the internet have eaten away at her for years.  She may have sailed through the confrontation fine at the time, but in the long term it takes a huge toll.

I'm not keen on long-distance diagnosis, but I think I see a similar pattern in Brian.  The dichotomy inside the self-confident king in the studio who's already had a nervous breakdown about going on tour, and whose confidence in his own rightness even there gradually erodes.  My wife tells me that that kind of behavior -- learning how to keep up a confident or even pushy I-know-what-I'm-doing front while going to pieces inside -- is extremely common among people who were bullied extensively as kids; they may have learned how to stand up for themselves, but inside the blows have still landed.  I'm not sure how growing up in the Wilson family compares to that, but that blend of outgoing confidence and underlying insecurity sounds common to both Brian and Dennis.

So basically, I don't have a problem with the idea that the eroding support from the band could well have been what broke Brian, even if he didn't immediately scrap Smile the moment Mike argued about the lyrics or whatever.  That could easily have been the turning point he remembers even if it didn't sink in for a while after it happened; he could easily win the battle and lose the war.  Basically?  People are complicated, they change gradually, and going by "the evidence" is tricky when you don't and can't have anywhere near all the evidence...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[the captain]

These nuanced posts are ruining the storyline. Just stick with Mike = greedy bastard, Brian = troubled (innocent) genius. If you must expand, you are allowed to say Carl is angelic, Bruce is lame, Dennis is sexy, Al is a short would-be dentist, and David was a temporary replacement. Please go no further. Thank you for your cooperation.

[runnersdialzero]

And there's Bruce. Well, if you're one of the two or three of us who have actually heard the Surfer's Pajama Party album...'nuff said. The man doesn't have a rock 'n roll bone in his body. If he went to a public school he would have been the victim of atomic wedgies from the real rock 'n rollers on a daily basis.

MACHO RRRRR

[Sheriff John Stone]

Jonathan Blum made some good points. It is possible that Mike's/the group's disenchantment with the SMiLE material could've had an adverse effect in the end - even though the real conflict might've begun several months and several sessions prior. But, I can't get past Smiley Smile.

Smile Smile is always there. It won't go away. If Brian truly scrapped SMiLE because of Mike's/the group's/his own/anyone's doubt about the material, he would've avoided Smiley Smile like the plague, and gone directly into Wild Honey. Smiley Smile is a weird album, there is NO question about it. And, whether the credit says "produced by Brian Wilson" or "produced by The Beach Boys", that doesn't erase the fact that the material is "out there".

Again, if Brian was truly concerned about the group's concerns for the appropriateness of the material, he could've instantaneously brought smiles (no pun intended) to everyone's faces by going into "Darlin'". That would've solved THAT problem immediately. He (and the group) could've knocked out Wild Honey in a couple of weeks and the debate about the weirdness of the SMiLE material is put to bed, and life as usual goes on. But he didn't....

[BJL]

Jonathan Blum made some good points. It is possible that Mike's/the group's disenchantment with the SMiLE material could've had an adverse effect in the end - even though the real conflict might've begun several months and several sessions prior. But, I can't get past Smiley Smile.

Smile Smile is always there. It won't go away. If Brian truly scrapped SMiLE because of Mike's/the group's/his own/anyone's doubt about the material, he would've avoided Smiley Smile like the plague, and gone directly into Wild Honey. Smiley Smile is a weird album, there is NO question about it. And, whether the credit says "produced by Brian Wilson" or "produced by The Beach Boys", that doesn't erase the fact that the material is "out there".

Again, if Brian was truly concerned about the group's concerns for the appropriateness of the material, he could've instantaneously brought smiles (no pun intended) to everyone's faces by going into "Darlin'". That would've solved THAT problem immediately. He (and the group) could've knocked out Wild Honey in a couple of weeks and the debate about the weirdness of the SMiLE material is put to bed, and life as usual goes on. But he didn't....

I think I agree with you that it wasn't Mike's fault, but to play devil's advocate for a moment...

I don't think anyone's arguing that Brian abandoned Smile to "give in" to mike.  I think the point is that the band's criticisms made him doubt the project, which led to the long, slow, unravelling, culminating in "foda it lets just get high and cut some sht and put it out and move on with our lives."

Also, in a way, Smiley Smile could be seen as giving in to the bands wishes in a very clever, somewhat manipulative way.  By making his new music purposefully underwhelming, he could move into Wild Honey without looking like he was giving up; make it look like "well, that didn't work out, guess we'll just have to go back to the formula" which is a much craftier way of making that shift than going straight from cabinessence to darlin.