Why didn't Brian just release Smile as a solo album back in '67?

[Erik H]

Mike wrote the lyrics and bass vocal hook for Good Vibrations after Tony Asher had already contributed.

Yes, Van Dyke was gone and Brian wasn't including Mike.

These are things that didn't help,

[mikes beard]

But what I find perplexing is that other than the missing VDP lyrics being slotted into place on a few songs, I really can't find virtually any difference between most BWSP tracks and many of the more polished outtakes from the Smile sessions (in particular the ones on the Good Vibrations boxset) in terms of arrangements.  Of course they sound light years apart in terms of recording equipment advances in the past 40 years, and Brian's voice sounds nothing like it did back in '66 but in terms of pure arrangements many of them are identical.  Which makes me wonder just how "unfinished" Smile really was.  I think a better word might be "abandoned"

[Chris Brown]

But what I find perplexing is that other than the missing VDP lyrics being slotted into place on a few songs, I really can't find virtually any difference between most BWSP tracks and many of the more polished outtakes from the Smile sessions (in particular the ones on the Good Vibrations boxset) in terms of arrangements.  Of course they sound light years apart in terms of recording equipment advances in the past 40 years, and Brian's voice sounds nothing like it did back in '66 but in terms of pure arrangements many of them are identical.  Which makes me wonder just how "unfinished" Smile really was.  I think a better word might be "abandoned"

You make a good point, but you're functioning under the assumption that Brian had finished writing by the time he abandoned Smile in '67.  I think that had he seen it through to completion, there would have been a lot more to it that we never got to hear.  A lot would have been the same, yes, but there likely would have been new sections for some of the songs, or perhaps completely new songs all together.  We obviously don't know, but I don't think finishing it in '67 would have been as (relatively) easy as recording some lead vocals and splicing pre-existing sections together.  This, of course, leads us back to the question of whether a '67 Smile would have been comprised of "movements" like BWPS or 12 standalone tracks.  I tend to lean towards the latter, which is why I don't look to BWPS for answers about the original work.

BWPS, at its essence, was compiled from what they had to work with, and not necessarily reflective of what the final product may have sounded like in '67.  The arrangements are mostly identical because, at the outset, there wasn't really the idea to do any significant new composition, but to merely polish what was already there.

[Sheriff John Stone]

We don't know exactly what was recorded in 1966-67, so, it's conjecture. But, based on BWPS being a representation of the SMiLE songs, which songs needed to be completed and how long do you think it would've taken to record it?

I don't think it would've taken terribly long, and some of the vocals might've already been recorded - we just never heard them.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

It's pretty clear that after the beginning of the new year 1967, Brian for the most part stopped working on pretty much all of the titles associated with SMiLE to work solely on 'H&V' and 'Veggies'.  Whether or not this is because he felt the other titles were complete (or awfully close), or because he knew he needed to get out a single (and Heroes and Veggies were the two most, I guess 'obvious' candidates for this) I don't know.  What would be the reason that he would work on only two songs for 4 months?

[Cam Mott]

I agree we don't really know how close or if he was done with SMiLE. He could have been, he may have burned the masters. It seems to me some of the people around felt he was at least close if not done.

I'm going to guess Good Vibrations is the reason he spent so much time on H&V and Vt. I personally think the H&V Pt II sessions aren't for the radio single but that supposed b side of the 45 single. So possibly [I didn't count] compared to GV Bdub had spent the same or less energy on the SMiLE H&V single and even less on a supposed SS Vt single.

[Meade]

I know in the Les Chan interview from late in the 70's, Brian is asked if he'd ever considered, or ever will consider going solo, and he said then pretty adamantly "no, I don't believe in doing solo albums. I don't believe in spreading it too thin. Keep it in the group." Of course one decade later he was vamping up an awkward solo career with Landy... but such is the tale of Brian's life. It's likely that Brian didn't hold himself in such a high regard in '67 that he fancied himself "solo"... he needed to be wrapped in something close to home. It's just that that wrapping (The Beach Boys) wasn't as "inspired" as he found himself, so he had to always look outside. At the time of Smile, he got to a point where he says he feared his name... he feared what people were trying to pump him up into, so the only safe thing he felt he could do was retreat into the background.

I'm also reminded of an interview he did in '64 regarding his singing on the song "Blue Christmas" when the reporter asks, "could this be the start of a whole new career for you?" And at that point Brian said "I don't know." or something to the effect, "We'll see."

What's obvious is that these days he doesn't seem to really believe in the current Beach Boys lineup, and has said many times that on the basis of that, "I'm doing my own thing now. More interested in my own thing."

[Chris Brown]

We don't know exactly what was recorded in 1966-67, so, it's conjecture. But, based on BWPS being a representation of the SMiLE songs, which songs needed to be completed and how long do you think it would've taken to record it?

I don't think it would've taken terribly long, and some of the vocals might've already been recorded - we just never heard them.

Naturally it's conjecture, but given that Brian has said that he would have needed "another year" to finish, it's reasonable to assume (if you believe his comment, of course) that the finished product in '67 would have contained elements that had yet to be composed when he abandoned the project.   

As others have alluded to, the fact that he only focused on a few songs from January on would have definitely delayed the completion of other songs.  Some were obviously near complete, such as "Worms," possibly "Wonderful," and "Cabinessence," but others were in need of more work, either additional writing, recording, or both.  Specifically, I'm thinking of things like "Barnyard," "I'm In Great Shape," and "The Elements."  I just think there was a lot more to do than just record some lead vocals and make some splices.

[mikes beard]

Some really good points being shared.  It just occurred to me while reading the last few posts that it took Brian 6 months to make "Good Vibrations".  Now as he was applying the same type of writing and recording style to Smile if he had carried on at that rate Smile would have taken approximately 9 years to complete!!  Brian may have fell victim to his own self imposed,impossibly high sense of perfectionism. Makes me think of the story of the painter who paints a masterpiece then spends years adding more stokes to it until it is ruined.  I hope that doesn't come off as pompous as I am well aware my own songwriting abilities are about 1,000,000nth of that to Brian's and who knows just what tricks Brian had up his sleeve in regards to the Smile material.  I just wish in hindsight somebody like Carl had took him to one side (when he wasn't high) and told him he had a masterpiece on his hands, now finish it up and get it out to the masses - pronto!  Of course the thing with hindsight is its never available at the time!!

[Sheriff John Stone]

We don't know exactly what was recorded in 1966-67, so, it's conjecture. But, based on BWPS being a representation of the SMiLE songs, which songs needed to be completed and how long do you think it would've taken to record it?

I don't think it would've taken terribly long, and some of the vocals might've already been recorded - we just never heard them.

Naturally it's conjecture, but given that Brian has said that he would have needed "another year" to finish, it's reasonable to assume (if you believe his comment, of course) that the finished product in '67 would have contained elements that had yet to be composed when he abandoned the project.   

As others have alluded to, the fact that he only focused on a few songs from January on would have definitely delayed the completion of other songs.  Some were obviously near complete, such as "Worms," possibly "Wonderful," and "Cabinessence," but others were in need of more work, either additional writing, recording, or both.  Specifically, I'm thinking of things like "Barnyard," "I'm In Great Shape," and "The Elements."  I just think there was a lot more to do than just record some lead vocals and make some splices.

I don't put much stock into Brian's comment about needing another year to finish SMiLE. That comment was taken from one of his BWPS interviews, which I personally don't put much credence in. Two years to finish an album? Brian Wilson? In 1966-67? No way.

Yeah, "Good Vibrations" took a while to complete, and I do think that was the start of Brian's "tinkering" (and I say that respectfully); but he was still composing at a very fast pace. Composing fast, finishing not as fast I'll grant you. I don't think, however, that you can use "Good Vibrations" as the rule; I think it's more an exception, "Heroes And Villains" also being an exception.

But, I'm from the 12 separate songs SMiLE school of thought, as opposed to movements and link tracks. I put a lot of stock in Brian's ability to compose/produce great fades, and I also put a lot of stock in the song list submitted to Capitol Records (whoever did the handwriting). If I take each SMiLE song a track at a time, I see a project that was 80-85% finished, with some lead/backing vocals needed, and some tying together of some segments. How long would've that taken? Well, Brian did the Smiley Smile album in three weeks. Just one man's opinion, doesn't mean much...

[BJL]

The real tragedy, in my opinion, is that it seems like the most significant missing piece on a number of songs are the lead vocals.  We have a basically finished Prayer (intro).  We have a basically finished version of wonderful (which would have had that fade from the box set vegetables, perhaps, and some missing link into it).  We have a basically finished "Old Master Painter" - the fade of which was appropriated, but then likely unappropriated, so we can call that essentially finished.  We have a basically finished Wind Chimes, which just needs to be "produced," by which I mean cut up and put together so that the chorus repeated twice (which it seems was the original intent).  We have a basically finished cabinessence, which was until 68 missing only the lead vocal .  We have Do You Like Worms, missing only a lead vocal (and sounding woefully incomplete for it's absence).  We have a basically finished Child is the Father of the Man, again, missing the lead vocal.  Based on that tantalizing interview segment where Dennis played a version of the song with lyrics for a reporter, this lyric and vocal existed on tape once upon a time.  We almost certainly have a finished or nearly finished 6 minute version of heroes and Villians intended to be spread over two sides of a 45 and played for a reporter by mike love, referenced by other Beach Boys and participants.  This is, again, tragically missing.  We have a basically finished vegetables.  So this leaves us with only Surf's Up (which thank god was finished in the early 70s.) and the Elements, which seem to be the only two major tracks which Brian had left unfinished. 

So my thesis, I guess, is that a number of smile songs only needed lead vocals/sweatening.  oh that Carl had taken it in his head to put Child is the Father of the Man on 20/20!  Or that Do You Like Worms had made it to LA Light Album.  Then those tracks would prob now be thought of as as finished as Cabinessence!  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery in terms of song structure, but was probably, in my opinion, a song made up of the fragments (barnyard, Im in Great Shape, perhaps others) thrown out of Heroes by the time of the Cantina Mix (a companion piece to the similarly thrown out of Heroes "You Were My Sunshine."  And therefore possibly mostly recorded, if we just knew what order to put the fragments in.  And, ofcourse, missing the lead vocals! 

With a Brian Wilson-sound alike to record lead vocals, and the help of a few more demos/lyric sheets/missing acetates which I pray will someday come to light, we could one day have an incredibly finished sounding Smile Album, missing only The Elements!

The other part of my thesis, that Brian was fully capable of finished the album, he just didn't want to. 

wow that was long winded. 

[runnersdialzero]

The real tragedy, in my opinion, is that it seems like the most significant missing piece on a number of songs are the lead vocals.  We have a basically finished Prayer (intro).  We have a basically finished version of wonderful (which would have had that fade from the box set vegetables, perhaps, and some missing link into it).  We have a basically finished "Old Master Painter" - the fade of which was appropriated, but then likely unappropriated, so we can call that essentially finished.  We have a basically finished Wind Chimes, which just needs to be "produced," by which I mean cut up and put together so that the chorus repeated twice (which it seems was the original intent).  We have a basically finished cabinessence, which was until 68 missing only the lead vocal .  We have Do You Like Worms, missing only a lead vocal (and sounding woefully incomplete for it's absence).  We have a basically finished Child is the Father of the Man, again, missing the lead vocal.  Based on that tantalizing interview segment where Dennis played a version of the song with lyrics for a reporter, this lyric and vocal existed on tape once upon a time.  We almost certainly have a finished or nearly finished 6 minute version of heroes and Villians intended to be spread over two sides of a 45 and played for a reporter by mike love, referenced by other Beach Boys and participants.  This is, again, tragically missing.  We have a basically finished vegetables.  So this leaves us with only Surf's Up (which thank god was finished in the early 70s.) and the Elements, which seem to be the only two major tracks which Brian had left unfinished. 

I'm really not sure about those, and even on the other songs, it's a little shakey. Like others are saying, with more time, a lot of these songs could have been taken places none of us could even begin to dream of - BWPS and later edits of the material generally only make use of existing sections.

I think Brian still had ideas as to where things were headed with some of these songs, but we'll never really know. The "needed another year" claim doesn't sound too far fetched - Brian worked fast in those days, true, but it was becoming clear that he was wanting to devote more time to music. He was spending more time on his music over the year or two before it, so wanting to take another year for it doesn't seem like too much, to me.

[johnnyhypothesis]

I'm just wondering now, would it have been possible for them to stall by putting out an alternate album full of left overs?

Obviously the music scene was changing, and Good Vibrations presented a new direction; but plenty of record buyerswould still be slow to catch up to the new sounds.

I'm wondering if they could've passed off a new album with cuts like "Graduation Day" "Little Girl I Once Knew" "All Dressed Up For School" "Their Hearts Were Full of Spring", finish the track for what later became "Sherry She Needs Me", and include "Good Vibrations". That's half an album right there.

I'm not an expert, but hey, that kind of idea worked with the Party album. Maybe Brian could've got another 6-12 months out of it to work on SMiLE. Thoughts?

[Cam Mott]

To me the problem does not seem to be how long it would take, if Brian wanted to do more and take longer he just did and Capitol would deal with it; especially since they had drug Capitol into court wanting to break their contract at the time. To me the bottom line would look like, Brian stopped working on almost everything except the singles because he already had everything else as far along as he wanted. When what he had didn't work for him anymore, as dictated by his muse  and tastes and expectations, he scrapped it. If Brian wanted to take it up again later, he just would have without coaxing. Anyways, imo it was just a straight forward deal for Brian: this'll be cool - I'm doin' it - whoops, doesn't grab me - dump it - new direction and mood - boom - done a year from beginning. Not to say I'm one of those SS is SMiLE types, I'm one of those SS instead of SMiLE types.

[Paul]

I have at times wondered if he had done Pet Sounds as a solo, "Featuring The Beach Boys", and followed that with Smile as a solo, again "Featuring The Beach Boys", and in the interrim done proper Beach Boy albums, if perhaps that might have worked.   

[Dr. Tim]

I would say Cam basically has it right but there's a little more. We had a firestorm here a few years back (with Fire music!) after BWPS came out when one of the BB insiders (Alan Boyd?) told us that some lead vocals had been tracked, but then were erased, possibly by Brian himself to prevent anyone else from finishing Smile without his OK.   No overt confirmation from anyone else that anything was deliberately erased, or personally erased by Brian, as I recall at the time.  Big food fight over the truth of that, except that Darian sort-of confirmed there might be something to it. In one interview he says he heard - and was able to suss out - "ghost" vocals bleeding in on a Smile session track, but there being no existing vocal track on that reel where you could hear the vocals full volume.  Thus suggesting they may have been there at one point, then were erased, but not completely.  (This can happen if the multi-track is not perfectly aligned, so that the erase/recording heads do not fully record over the erased track).  But: Erased deliberately?  Were the vocals bounced to another reel which remains unfound so that something else could be tracked in their place?  The Shadow knows...

No need to go there again - just go back and check the prior discussion.  Maybe one of the mods can post the path to that thread.

[Bicyclerider]

The "ghost" vocals were backing vocals not on the multitracks/mixdowns, not lead vocals.

As for putting out an alternate album of left overs to buy time - that was Smiley Smile, wasn't it?  Remember, there was still talk of putting out Smile after Smiley came out.  But Brian had lost interest.

As for which tracks were completed, or completed with the exception of some lead vocals: Good Vibrations, Worms, Wind Chimes, Child is Father, Wonderful, Old Master Painter, Heroes and Villains, Cabinessence, and Vegetables seem to fit the bill - but it's not clear, despite Dennis playing Child to a reporter (probably on the piano) that lyrics had been written for the verses.  He was dissatisfied with Wonderful, rerecording it twice (January and April, both incomplete), and he was still tinkering with Heroes despite the fabled five to six minute mix that was done and played by Mike to a reporter.  And Old Master Painter had been cannibalized to finish Heroes, so was now without a third section/ending.

That leaves incomplete I'm in Great Shape, The Elements, and Surf's Up as needing the most extensive work.  He even mentions in May that finishing the track the Elements was giving him problems, seemingly making that track an important roadblock, psychologically (with the fire thing) as well as musically.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

While we're discussing what exactly Brian had complete and what was left to mix/record/etc., where the hell does Domenic Priore come up with this idea that at one of the May sessions that were cancelled, Brian was going to do the final mix of the album? In that last SMiLE book he did, he even went so far to say 'several musician accounts of this particular cancellation suggest that this session was for the purpose of editing together the SMiLE album'.  I've never heard anybody other than him suggest this. Anyone have any idea what he's talking about?

[Sheriff John Stone]

While we're discussing what exactly Brian had complete and what was left to mix/record/etc., where the hell does Domenic Priore come up with this idea that at one of the May sessions that were cancelled, Brian was going to do the final mix of the album? In that last SMiLE book he did, he even went so far to say 'several musician accounts of this particular cancellation suggest that this session was for the purpose of editing together the SMiLE album'.  I've never heard anybody other than him suggest this. Anyone have any idea what he's talking about?

I have no idea whether this proposed "mixing session" was scheduled or not, but....

I do believe that Brian could've finished SMiLE with a couple of those sessions with all of the guys there, busting their tails, including the Wrecking Crew and The Beach Boys. Again, Brian could record a lot of things in a short period of time, and, even if he just took one song a day for a week, I believe he could've completed it. Twelve or thirteen stand-alone songs that is.

[Paul]

12 stand alone tracks is what I believe it would have been (with The Elements being the suite), and isn't Brian quoted as saying at the time (to paraphrase), "There won't be any jokes per se, but somebody might say something in between tracks"?   This always gave me the impression of stand a lone tracks with odd little bits inbetween.
But I'd agree with the assertion that had they put in the effort, it could have been completed.