What happened...

[MBE]

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer.

Peter I think this is your best post ever.

[SurferGirl7]

I think it would be sad if people left because of the old Brian/Mike thing. The fact is that in any group activity such as a music group, group dynamics are complicated and often driven by the needs of the moment. I think this is especially true of The Beach Boys, who are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot business wise. I don't see this as a Brian versus Mike problem, but as a group problem. All one needs to do is follow the group's history over the years to verify this pattern. Not that any of this particularly matters any more, because The Beach Boys died when Dennis passed in my opinion. That some of the group are still touring is nice to keep the music in front of people. I used to think that it was a problem that so many people were touring Brian's music, but not any more. It's good to expose a new generation to Beach Boys music. It's about keeping the music alive these days, not the summer.

Peter I think this is your best post ever.

And best use of smileys! 

[TdHabib]

Don't mean to drag up anything at all just responding...

Yeah, this is pretty sad and immature stuff from ALL involved.

I'm not taking this as an attack, but personally I don't think I did anything wrong, sad or immature I was slightly involved in that I criticized one comment I didn't see fit (if you didn't like or want my opinion, that's too bad as most of the posts on the Mike/Brian thread were "opinion") and defended Rob and Clay (which I will do without apology and will always continue to). I find these a) just an opinion and b) just being kind and defending friends.

So I'll say it: Rob, Clay, DON'T LEAVE.  

Too late in Rob's case apparantley, but in Clay's case I will echo this.

Bringing up PM's, unacceptable. Comments against one's partner, male or female, unacceptable. Strong opinions on Mike or Brian that are still on the "respectful" side of things, fine.

Not to give myself too much credit (and yes, I have 3 different names on here because I keep forgetting my password) but I almost feel that I'm responsible for all this in a way. I know I can be very very annoying with my unwavering defense of Mike Love, so whatever responsabilty I hold for starting little fires and then stepping back and watching them spread.... I accept and apoligize.

You did absolutely nothing wrong at all except for liking "Looking Back with Love."

I must agree with Stone about the mental illness card being overplayed and a cop-out. A point I'd like to add meekly and humbly is that there is a certain kind of inbalance in the Wilson/Love blood as far as I know that would be, I don't want to say hereditary but certainly handed down...remember Murry's father was a very harsh man which carried to Murry and Murry stayed in bed for long periods. Brian was known to do this. Dennis and Murry had a lot in common and more than once Carl was described as a slighter version of Murry without the shouting and temper (which I only agree with for small periods). Stan beat up his cousin Dennis very badly, and Dennis married his cousin's daughter. Mike had 8 children and Brian has (adopted and natural) 6 children total. Brian and Carl had a difficult relationship later in life. Also remember Mike was institutionalized for a period, has not been on speaking terms with his father for a considerable amount of time and also doesn't talk to Stan now (I believe it's Stan although it could be Steve). There are definite patterns and you have to keep this is mind when discussing the whole saga.

[MBE]

TdHabib you bring up some good points. I feel bad for all the Wilson's and Love's to some extent. It seems none of them had a great upbringing and it hurt them all in one way or another. I think Tim White traced it back to Buddy Wilson who seems by far to be the least sympathetic character in the whole family.

[SMiLE-Holland]

This thread is slowly turning into a valuable one (a few exceptions excluded). I'd like to thank all of you for your thoughts on this awkward situation. A lot of valuable advise for ALL of us, and that includes us moderators. Billy, Joe, Jason and I have been talking a lot on the whole sitation of the last few days, and most of our conclusions are similar to those you have mentioned here. As for our role here. We realise very well that (being the enthousiastic fans we are, just like you all) sometimes it's not easy to simultaneously join a discussion and keep that role of supervisor in mind. All I can promise is that we'll do our very best to do a proper job as moderators.

That being said: the "History of Mike's reputation"-thread is about to be moved back to the main forum.

Please try to keep that thread "on-topic", and continue "that other discussion" in this topic in the Sandbox... thus far no-one came out as a winner here, at least let us try to gain that what (and maybe those who) we have lost back again.

[Cam Mott]

This belong over there but I don't want to violate the treaty.

One of Rob's and my replys might give the impression I meant Rob when I told about someone insulting my wife. I did not. Rob and I have always had passionate but respectful debates without insulting each other or our families, as far as I remember, and will continue to somewhere I'm sure.

Maybe this was un-neccesaary but there it is anyway. I hope Rob comes back here.

[SMiLE-Holland]

This belong over there but I don't want to violate the treaty.

One of Rob's and my replys might give the impression I meant Rob when I told about someone insulting my wife. I did not. Rob and I have always had passionate but respectful debates without insulting each other or our families, as far as I remember, and will continue to somewhere I'm sure.

Maybe this was un-neccesaary but there it is anyway. I hope Rob comes back here.

Cam Cott: if you feel uncomfortable on how a specific post you wrote might be judged you can edit it yourself (or add abovementioned information). Apparently I didn't edit it, so I didn't see any harm in it anyway.


And I agree with you: I hope Rob (and others that have decided to turn their back on this forum) will eventually turn back. We don't have to become friends with everybody, or act like nothing has happened. But I can perfectly live with it, if we succeed in avoiding/ignoring those we'd rather not discuss with, and continue the discussions in a positive way.

[The Heartical Don]

TdHabib raised very valuable points.

Depression, and also impulsivity, have a strong genetic component to them. It 'runs in the family', often. Murry sought to alleviate his problems with alcohol; Brian did likewise (and with 10,000 other substances). Bud Wilson probably did. It is quite possible that Grandpa and Dad almost immediately regretted their violence after having perpetrated it; that is what impulsivity does to one. It's a lack of control. But it is also possible that they were absolutely unable to express regret, or difficult feelings in general. I can see a parallel between Murry becoming a soft chicken when hearing his boys making fine music, and Brian watching 'Flipper' on TV and weeping. It's a form of sentimentality that compensates for emotional problems.
Mike seemed (seems) to have been (be) in better control of his tempers... he limited (limits) himself to hurtful verbal remarks, and also lawsuits (well, the more ludicrous ones, anyway). Methods that avoid direct damage, but are harmful nonetheless. He's a more sly person. But I can well accept that he has some sort of tendency towards emotional instability as well. On the other side, he's a really disciplined trooper.

[Cam Mott]

Cam Cott: if you feel uncomfortable on how a specific post you wrote might be judged you can edit it yourself (or add abovementioned information). Apparently I didn't edit it, so I didn't see any harm in it anyway.

Will do, didn't want to disrupt the uncertain balance of the restored thread.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I am truly sorry for repeating myself (it's a character flaw, I'm working on it), but I think a point should be clarified.

I am seeing mental illness/heredity/parental influence being discussed - and the way some apply it directly to Brian's behavior - and that's a good thing. If you truly believe that is the case, and you need this issue to make your case/argument, go for it. But, if somebody does not agree with the "mental illness affect" as strongly as you, or at all, please do not resort to name-calling and derogatory comments.

Because you don't put as much emphasis on mental illness, as it applies to a Wilson's behavior, that does not make you ignorant, insensitive, or BEING MEAN TO THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED! Come on, give me a break. It is nothing personal against Brian or anybody else, so don't play that card either.

I will repeat this, too. This blowup occured because of name-calling, getting personal, and using profanity. It was done as a response, just because somebody didn't agree with a post. One poster responded to another poster WHO TRIED TO MAKE BRIAN ACCOUNTABLE AND DIDN'T BUY INTO THE MENTALL ILLNESS THEORY. If you become THAT upset with a post that causes you to lash out like that, maybe it is best to step away for awhile and re-evaluate things.

[Irwin M. Fletcher]

Sheriff, I believe firmly that the content of the post was not what was found objectionable...rather the person (me) who made the comment. You would have been merely laughed at for the same post. The reactions to my post are down to personal bias inherent in the individuals who responded as they did. And that is now, as it was then, their problem and not mine.

[TdHabib]

TdHabib raised very valuable points. Depression, and also impulsivity, have a strong genetic component to them. It 'runs in the family', often. Murry sought to alleviate his problems with alcohol; Brian did likewise (and with 10,000 other substances). Bud Wilson probably did. It is quite possible that Grandpa and Dad almost immediately regretted their violence after having perpetrated it; that is what impulsivity does to one. It's a lack of control. But it is also possible that they were absolutely unable to express regret, or difficult feelings in general. I can see a parallel between Murry becoming a soft chicken when hearing his boys making fine music, and Brian watching 'Flipper' on TV and weeping. It's a form of sentimentality that compensates for emotional problems. Mike seemed (seems) to have been (be) in better control of his tempers... he limited (limits) himself to hurtful verbal remarks, and also lawsuits (well, the more ludicrous ones, anyway). Methods that avoid direct damage, but are harmful nonetheless. He's a more sly person. But I can well accept that he has some sort of tendency towards emotional instability as well. On the other side, he's a really disciplined trooper.

Good post Don. I'm very proud of my post.

One more point is that some people rightly take offense when people blame Mike for Brian's problems. But just a thought that I'll add in a humble, meek voice that it is possible that Mike hurt Brian without knowing he was doing so. I was thinking of a personal situation where I had an argument with someone which played out with several other people, she really hurt my feelings, and then about a year later she told me half of the things I thought she said she never did and people were exaggerating and/or I was coming to the wrong conclusions at the time. I think this is what happened with Mike and Brian. They had arguments, Brian's feelings got hurt and he probably made it worse than it was. Mike probably was just saying/doing what he thought was right and what he felt strongly about. Brian in 1965-1967 (and then 10x so in the following years) was a fragile person easily upset. Hell, he cried at "Flipper" and didn't have a lot of patience in general. Mike could've easily upset Brian without knowing he was doing so or as bad as he was. Just a theory.

[Cam Mott]

I think that is very possible, because I believe that most if not all hurt these guys caused each was not intentional. Another thing that I think gets overlooked is the hurt Brian and Dennis caused or put the Boys through over the years.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Sheriff, I believe firmly that the content of the post was not what was found objectionable...rather the person (me) who made the comment. You would have been merely laughed at for the same post. The reactions to my post are down to personal bias inherent in the individuals who responded as they did. And that is now, as it was then, their problem and not mine.

I totally agree, that's what I'm saying! Somebody objects to a post, but instead of responding by addressing the point(s) that they disagree with, they throw out insulting, personal comments. Then the person who was insulted retaliates and all hell breaks loose.

Not that I'm condoning insults to someone's family, or profanity, I'M NOT CONDONING IT, but your point (I think it was your point) and Dancing Bear's point is well taken. This is a rock & roll message board, and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Irwin M. Fletcher]

Well, that's the way it's always been on here...obviously the kitchen now has fewer cooks. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

[MBE]

Having read through the censored versions of the posts I honestly don't think Jason did anything wrong in sharing his view. I look at this and say that I may not agree with what someone says but I would rush to defend their right to say it. I see opinions here all the time that I don't share. It's never ruined my day or caused my blood pressure to go up.

My own views are pretty in the middle. If I have a bias it is one for the group as a whole not just Brian and/or Mike. Honestly I don't  go too far either way because I see the good and bad in all the Beach Boys. I'm just a fan/researcher interested in the Beach Boys. I'm here because I like to read what others have to say. If people get personally hurt or offended by what I or anyone else says I think that's for them to deal with. The only thing I don't want to see is name calling and personal attacks. Frankly people who get so invested in a message board post need to really step back and try to find some balance in their lives.

[Not Dick Dale]

One more point is that some people rightly take offense when people blame Mike for Brian's problems. But just a thought that I'll add in a humble, meek voice that it is possible that Mike hurt Brian without knowing he was doing so. I was thinking of a personal situation where I had an argument with someone which played out with several other people, she really hurt my feelings, and then about a year later she told me half of the things I thought she said she never did and people were exaggerating and/or I was coming to the wrong conclusions at the time. I think this is what happened with Mike and Brian. They had arguments, Brian's feelings got hurt and he probably made it worse than it was. Mike probably was just saying/doing what he thought was right and what he felt strongly about. Brian in 1965-1967 (and then 10x so in the following years) was a fragile person easily upset. Hell, he cried at "Flipper" and didn't have a lot of patience in general. Mike could've easily upset Brian without knowing he was doing so or as bad as he was. Just a theory.

Well said.