BEACH BOYS PBS 'AMERICAN MASTERS' SPECIAL IS IN THE WORKS

[MBE]

the way Brian's solo career has been handled, manipulated, and "sold", has directly affected the way I view- and ultimately enjoy - his music.

All pop music, by its nature is handled, manipulated and sold. That's part of what makes it pop music. The image is often inseparable from the musical content -- and it has been since before the days of Elvis.

Yes, and I don't know why Brian's situation bothers me more than the rest. But I'll try to explain it anyway.

One of the most endearing qualities in Brian's Beach Boys' music is honesty. I can literally hear it or feel it. I'll hear a song or a line and think, "That's so Brian." And I don't even know the guy! But you know what I mean....Even with an album like MIU, I can appreciate Brian's work. It wasn't Pet Sounds or Love You, but it was a true picture of where the guy was at that particular time - trying to make some nice, pleasant, Beach Boys-type music. And I appreciate(d) that. It might be a lightweight vibe, but it was a vibe nonetheless. It WAS a Brian Wilson vibe. It was a 35 year-old Brian Wilson sitting a piano and CREATING SONGS - in the moment. I felt he had an idea - his idea - of what he wanted to say musically, and did it, mostly if not entirely by himself. And that's all I ever wanted. What the record company or spinmeisters said after the fact in promoting the album (or Brian) meant nothing to me. THere wasn't very much anyway. I had a new Brian-involved Beach Boys' album and that's all I cared about. Whether you liked it or not, it was The Beach Boys, warts and all.

I don't feel that way about Brian Wilson, solo artist. I'm not gonna rehash all of it - you know how I feel. But, after Brian emerged from Landy's intervention in 1983, a helleuva lot changed - forever. Now, I don't hear that honesty, I don't feel the honesty. I don't hear Brian. I feel like I should apologize or something, but I just don't get it. Now, the spin does bother me. I DO care what it is being said and sold. Like you said, over time, maybe it won't matter. I sincerely hope you're right!

Brian has changed so much since 1983 and it is disturbing in some ways. The closer you get the worse it seems but again I try to take a step back with the music and simply say "do I like it" or "do I not like it". I like the Paley tapes. TLOS, half of the 88 , BWPS, and even the Xmas for what it is, but I don't like his other solo work or post 82 work much at all. I do feel better hearing or watching the old stuff in many ways, but when I hear good music it's hard for me to put it down because the circumstances behind it aren't ideal. I can't know what goes on day to day with Brian, I don't like a lot of what I do know, but I do hope he's happy as possible given his circumstances.

[Wirestone]

I think in Brian a lot of us mourn age and wasted potential. He has changed much since '83, yes, and he's also three decades older. A man in his early 40s is not a man in his late 60s. Even if he were unaffected by drugs and mental illness, he would be less vital than he was.

Things change, and the past cannot be recaptured. What we had once, we cannot have again.

[BarbaraAnn]

Okay, let me set the record straight, YES, I have been to a Mike Love "Beach Boy" concert.  I enjoyed the concert and was excited when Mike, in my mind, looked right at me and winked, when he sang Barbara Ann.  It was good and I give Mike credit for co writing so many hits and his contribution to the band.  But all of the guys contributed.  Mike just seems the only one who feels he can call himself the Beach Boys.  Brian and his band sounded dead on, like all the original songs, without Mike.  Brian did not and does not act like he's ALL THAT!  Mike always wanted to be thought of as the sex symbol of the band, I think that is probably one of the many reasons Mike had no use for Dennis.  Years ago I read an article on a Beach Boy concert, as I recall the reviewer loved the music but said that Mike tried so hard to get the ladies attention that he looked and danced like a "constipated Mick Jagger".  I think that was about right.  Other artists that went on without their group did  not take the name with them.  {Diana Ross, Smokey Robinson etc. }  The Beach Boys would have been The Beach Boys with or without Mike.  They all added to the sound, look, and success.  But, without Brian the Beach Boys would have never been.

[KokoMoses]

I just can't agree with that!! Weren't Mike and Al the guys who were pushing Brian to start a band in the first place? Wasn't Dennis the guy who suggested they write a song about surfing? Wasn't it Dennis' lifestyle they all envied and were tryin to emulate in song? Wasn't it Carl who was a guitar playng Chuck Berry obsessive? Brian was a 4 Freshman guy (and a rock n roll guy) Wasn't Mike a great bass singer, and didn't Brian have a killer falsetto? Didn't those two elements compliment each other magically?

THESE were the elements that gave birth to The Beach Boys! Not Brian all alone!!!!

As for Mike being jealous of Dennis over the attention/sex symbol nonesense: Do we really think Mike is the only guy in rock history to have such issues with another band member? Honestly? And the guy was a great frontman, constipated Mick Jagger, or not! Let's face it, (and YES, the music was the THING) no one else on a Beach Boy stage was much to look at ...... well, aside from Dennis.

[Alex]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

Hell, I love both the 60s Who and 60s Stones, but can't stand either band's 70s work...I love Syd Barrett, but have a huge disdain for Waters and Gilmour... Sorry, but some of us just can't accept the entire package...we'd prefer to pick and choose!

[Wilsonista]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

Hell, I love both the 60s Who and 60s Stones, but can't stand either band's 70s work...I love Syd Barrett, but have a huge disdain for Waters and Gilmour... Sorry, but some of us just can't accept the entire package...we'd prefer to pick and choose!

I hate to say this, but "you either like a group or you don't" sounds Bush-like.  I get the factionlization with groups like the BB. What appeals to one person doesn;t necesarily appeal to someone else.  To suggest that just because one doesn't like a particular BB that they aren't a true fan is almost offensive. 

Mike did do good work during the 60's but I don;t like a lot of what he's done since the 70's. His most overrated talent is his so-called commercial savvy. If he was good at that aspect of their career, Kokomo would have been the start of a string of 80's/90's hits for the BB instead of a fluke. Pointing that out shouldn't be a fan crime.

[KokoMoses]

Fair enough, I suppose, but where then is the string of Brian hits from Good Vibrations onward? We can't simply blame Mike!

[Wirestone]

You missed Rob's point. He was saying Mike is supposedly renowned for commercial savvy. Brian has been renowned for his artistry -- which isn't always rewarded by commercial success.

[Wilsonista]

Fair enough, I suppose, but where then is the string of Brian hits from Good Vibrations onward? We can't simply blame Mike!

I'm not talking about Brian, I am specifically addressing Mike.  What I was saying is that Mike's sense of what connected to the masses got worse and worse the older he got yet he always insisted that only he knew what sold. Of course that's what you get when you are a follower rather than a bold risk taker (something Mike was never going to be).

But since you asked, I'll give you my opinion, take it for what it's worth. I do believe he lost a lot of confidence when his new direction was questioned. Even if one questions the Priore/Leaf version of the SMiLE story and see Smiley as Brian beining innovative, one might also conclude that Smiley's lack of sucess was a confidence crusher. In any event, risk takers are, generally, confident. By his own admission, Brian wasn't trying to knock people out by the late 60's. He had become, by whatever standards he had, a follower. As he aged and deteriorated, I think he lost just enough of his talent that even if he wanted to be bold and daring, he couldn't do it.  Don't get me wrong,  unambitious Brian can still be a blast. But let's not kid ourselves. Friends, wonderful that it is will never knock out people in the way that Pet Sounds does.

EDIT: Clay got it.

[KokoMoses]

Perhaps I did miss the point, but just who renowns Mike for his commercial savvy? Whatever noise he himself makes about it shouldn't count as "renown" .... And I'm sure Brian's never minded having a big hit himself! Every musician (well, there are exceptions) wants to be successful be it commercially or artisticaly. Though I'll make the leap and say the real jackpot is to be successful in both ways. And I'll bet both Brian and Mike would agree. I also see nothing wrong with what we assume is Mike's idea of commercial and successful. Uh, does he mean the awe inspiring string of successes both commercially and artistically The Beach Boys scored for such a stretch? If so, who the hell can argue with him? And Kokomo a fluke? Who cares? A hit is a hit!

[KokoMoses]

And Robmac: I completely agree that Brian can still be a blast when he wants to. To me, the man has a great sense of humor that really shines through at times. I think we all tend to take him too seriously! I don't mean too seriously as an artist, but just too.... of portent! I dunno!

[Wilsonista]

There are many people in the BB world who champion Mike's "commcerial savvy".  Bruce, to give one example. Terry Melcher, to give another one.  

Erik: Love You is the perfect Brian as a blast album.

[KokoMoses]

Ha, shouldn't both Bruce and Terry fall under the "employees of Mike" catagory?  

Yes, yes, LOVE YOU is a riot from start to finish. There is so much Brian that is pure joy despite the circumstances. Shortnin Bread, for instance, gets written off as a drug induced horror, but it's hell of a lot of fun, and you know Dennis had a blast with that bass vocal!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think in Brian a lot of us mourn age and wasted potential. He has changed much since '83, yes, and he's also three decades older. A man in his early 40s is not a man in his late 60s. Even if he were unaffected by drugs and mental illness, he would be less vital than he was.

Things change, and the past cannot be recaptured. What we had once, we cannot have again.

Yes, claymcc, I think ALL of us on this board experience the feelings you listed above, in varying degrees of course. I think the length of time we have been BW/BB fans is a big factor in the degree, also. For myself, I've been knocked down a peg with each release starting with The Beach Boys 1985 album. There haven't been too many upward spikes, just the occasional moment that keeps the spark alive. For newer fans, they still have a reserve of patience. They haven't been through enough "Brian Is Back" campaigns yet!

That being said, you hit on part of the points that I attempted to make with my above posts, and I don't think I articulated them well enough. Or maybe I did....You stated  "he has changed much since '83", "A man in his early 40's is not a man in his late 60's", "Things change, and the past cannot be recaptured", and finally, "What we had once, we cannot have again". EXACTLY!!!

I'm not specifically singling you out, but, then don't tell me that Brian COULD finish something as brilliant as SMiLE, that he could succeed as a solo artist (like he might've been able to do 40 years ago), continue to call him a genius (present tense), or dare I say that he is capable on finishing a composition on the same level as George Gershwin. It's like people want it both ways. On one hand, they will say that it's unrealistic to expect this and that out of Brian. Then they'll go on to defend the hell out of him when he's fairly criticized. On a side note, if this current tour was so impressive, then what does that tell you about the previous 9-10 years of shows? Do you feel cheated, like maybe he was holding back, didn't really care about communicating with his audience, didn't really care about bantering with his bandmates, didn't really care about playing the piano? Did he need to be reprimanded by someone to put out more, to give a better effort? Teleprompter: Sing this song nicely, Brian. I was ripped for the analogy, but it does make his previous shows look more like karaoke night, doesn't it?

"What we had once, we cannot have again." I know many people on this board think that I support a Beach Boys' reunion for that reason, and am not in touch with reality. And that would be absolutely false. Conversely, I'm looking for something NEW. The solo Brian bores me. I'm looking for the honest Brian - good or bad. I'm looking for some real emotion. I want to see how Brian relates to his cousin and friends, musicians closer to his age. I want to see him in a different setting than this planting in front of a piano. This potential Beach Boys lineup intrigues me; I think it has a lot of promise. And, what I think I would really like about the return of The Beach Boys is that it would be ABSENT of hype. Most expectations would be low. I guess that's when Mike would step in to raise them.

[Dancing Bear]

Brian's last top 10 hit ever was Good Vibrations. He came up with the next bunch of material - a top 12 single and that was it - before being questioned by anyone. I wouldn't mind if he wrote 25 #1 hits after '66, but he didn't, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I just hope no one felt clobbered by this simple statement of facts.  

[Wilsonista]

Ha, shouldn't both Bruce and Terry fall under the "employees of Mike" catagory?  

Ha! I'm glad someone else made that crack!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Ha, shouldn't both Bruce and Terry fall under the "employees of Mike" catagory?  

Yes, yes, LOVE YOU is a riot from start to finish. There is so much Brian that is pure joy despite the circumstances. Shortnin Bread, for instance, gets written off as a drug induced horror, but it's hell of a lot of fun, and you know Dennis had a blast with that bass vocal!

You have a copy of Love You with "Shortenin' Bread" on it ? My man, your financial woes are ended - you can name your price ! 

[MBE]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

Hell, I love both the 60s Who and 60s Stones, but can't stand either band's 70s work...I love Syd Barrett, but have a huge disdain for Waters and Gilmour... Sorry, but some of us just can't accept the entire package...we'd prefer to pick and choose!

Well about The Who and The Stones I agree to some extent (although I would say it was the eighties when I really lose interest), but that doesn't mean I get pissed off at someone who likes Ron Wood or Kenny Jones. All I'm trying to say is that I'm tired of things like Mike bashing for the sake of doing it.

[Wirestone]

Time passes. We age. Things change. We can't recapture the past.

This is all true.

But neither are we powerless. Neither are we without resources, from within ourselves and from those who love and care for us. And while vitality may fade, wisdom may be gained.

For while, as I just posted, we find much to mourn in Brian Wilson's story -- for it is a story that we tell and retell for our own purposes -- there is much to celebrate. For he has finally been able to experience, however fitfully, the love of audiences. He has been able to employ and befriend a band that summons his favorite sounds with ease. And he has been able to, however aided, write and sing into his seventh decade.

These are not small things for a shy, damaged man. These are not small things for a proud, willful man. And Brian Wilson is all of those.

Is this a happy ending? For all the reasons just mentioned, sure. It is a tragic ending? For the wasted potential, and the twists and turns we have yet to see or know, perhaps.

But while there is limitless sadness in Brian's story, in the past and in the present, there is also joy that we can barely fathom. That joy is in the music and in the potential of a human being to transcend, if only for a few fleeting moments, his damaged vessel of a body to create something new.

I'm not going to suddenly agree with SJS. I understand his perspective. I think he's misinterpreted some of what I've written, but that's his prerogative -- and perhaps my fault for not writing more clearly. The unpleasantness of this story -- the BB/BW story -- can be hard to stomach sometimes, and it can well up in all of us. But I choose to see the joy.

That's all from me for awhile.

[MBE]

I can understand that viewpoint, but I doubt anybody who has been to Mike & Bruce's shows (or heard tapes) would call it "baboonery".

I would be the first to put down Mike's and the Beach Boys shows from 1981, 1984-87, 1989-1992, and 1994-2000 but since then, especially in the last few years, he is every bit as good as Brian when Brian is not performing a thematic show.

There's one aspect of fandom I don't get. To me either you like a group or don't. I've seen people who love Jan but hate Dean, I've seen Three Stooges fans who hate Shemp and Joe just because they aren't Curly, 50's Elvis fans hate 70's Elvis, Dylan's been hated at one time or another by almost everyone. Of course with the Beach Boys we get the Mike Love crap. Honestly it's good to have a critical perspective but I don't think it's right not to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of everybody and to at least to understand changes in direction. OK so Ringo Starr wasn't John Lennon, that still doesn't take away all the talent and charm he brought to the Beatles.

Hell, I love both the 60s Who and 60s Stones, but can't stand either band's 70s work...I love Syd Barrett, but have a huge disdain for Waters and Gilmour... Sorry, but some of us just can't accept the entire package...we'd prefer to pick and choose!

I hate to say this, but "you either like a group or you don't" sounds Bush-like.Do you assume everyone's going to go along with your sentiment? Frankly I'm not utra left or right but I don't like assumptions made[/color]. I get the factionlization with groups like the BB. What appeals to one person doesn;t necesarily appeal to someone else.  To suggest that just because one doesn't like a particular BB that they aren't a true fan is almost offensive. Who said that? I said I find blind Mike hating offensive and things like that with other bands offensive.
Mike did do good work during the 60's but I don;t like a lot of what he's done since the 70's. His most overrated talent is his so-called commercial savvy. If he was good at that aspect of their career, Kokomo would have been the start of a string of 80's/90's hits for the BB instead of a fluke. Pointing that out shouldn't be a fan crime. Actually I agree for the most part but I don't like when people rip him a new one before he gets the chance to even do a project. At least wait to see what happens before you judge a guy and his motives

An individual piece of work, or even a specific action, is open for crtique but what bores me is kind of a non specific Brian-good Mike-evil deal.  I'm not saying anyone must like everything, but I try to respect the people I follow at least as much as I would anyone else. Again I think Mike has made some bad moves, but that doesn't make me feel I have the right to rip him apart. Anyone I do mention distate for in the Beach Boys world it stems from personal experience. Even that I preface with saying I don't really know the person because no one in the Beach Boys personal circle is part of my day to day life.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Has to be said, the Brian good/Beach Boys bad concept can be laid squarely at the feet of David Leaf... and 'fess up time, I subscribed to it for many year. Then, as I got to know a little more about the inner workings and personalities involved, I realised that nothing is that simple. Brian has been hideously manipulated, but you have to understand that he is also a master manipulator in his own right. The Beach Boys are not, as one highly regarded Brianista (who should know better) has stated in print "Brian & the four dwarves". No heroes, no villains, just mid-westerners made good. Maybe one day we'll all come to realise this.

And then we'll have world peace.

[MBE]

Has to be said, the Brian good/Beach Boys bad concept can be laid squarely at the feet of David Leaf... and 'fess up time, I subscribed to it for many year. Then, as I got to know a little more about the inner workings and personalities involved, I realised that nothing is that simple. Brian has been hideously manipulated, but you have to understand that he is also a master manipulator in his own right. The Beach Boys are not, as one highly regarded Brianista (who should know better) has stated in print "Brian & the four dwarves". No heroes, no villains, just mid-westerners made good. Maybe one day we'll all come to realise this.

And then we'll have world peace.

Perfect echo of my sentiments. Thanks for summing it up so well.

[Nicko]

His most overrated talent is his so-called commercial savvy. If he was good at that aspect of their career, Kokomo would have been the start of a string of 80's/90's hits for the BB instead of a fluke. Pointing that out shouldn't be a fan crime.

I'm not sure about that in all honesty but I can see both sides of the argument.

I can understand people saying that as The BBs were such good singers, they could have been having hits through the 80s and 90s. However how many bands or artists from the 60s did that actually happen to? The Bee Gees certainly (who differ from The BBs in that they were still in their original form) but very few others.

The way I would look at it though is that the band did well to be as successful as they were and continue to be. Brian and Mike were the only band members who were capable of writing hits and so it would have been reasonable to expect after Brian pulled back in the mid-60s that the group would just fizzle out over the next few years. So for 15 Big Ones to sell so many (as it was awful), Almost Summer to be a reasonable hit, Mike's America cassette thing to do pretty well, Wipeout to be a massive success and Kokomo to go to number one constitues a pretty fair run I think. Let's face it, Mike was essentially turd polishing a lot of the time and he proved himself to be adept at it.   

The fact that the band essentially became an oldies act on stage obviously proved successful as well. I'm not saying that it's something that I'd have wanted to happen at all but the group continued to be successful right around the world and Mike and Bruce still being able to play 150 concerts a year shows how successful the image was in promoting a good night out.

[Jon Stebbins]

Has to be said, the Brian good/Beach Boys bad concept can be laid squarely at the feet of David Leaf... and 'fess up time, I subscribed to it for many year. Then, as I got to know a little more about the inner workings and personalities involved, I realised that nothing is that simple. Brian has been hideously manipulated, but you have to understand that he is also a master manipulator in his own right. The Beach Boys are not, as one highly regarded Brianista (who should know better) has stated in print "Brian & the four dwarves". No heroes, no villains, just mid-westerners made good. Maybe one day we'll all come to realise this.

And then we'll have world peace.

Absolutely. My position has evolved as well. Its hard to understand the hardcore fans who have this entrenched and tired Leafian perspective, considering how much new info has come to light in the last decade. PLEASE...EVOLVE!! What ticks me off are the ones, including journalists who constantly say Brian didn't have much support within the band. That's absolute crap. He had two brothers who worshipped him, one who would lay down in front of a train for him...and some neighbors and friends who did exactly what he asked of them...and a cousin who has managed to get under just about everybody's skin, but was the most prolific and productive collaborator he ever had. Brian not only had fantastic voices to use, but he also had musicians in his band that were versatile and passionate. The whole give all the credit to the Brian and Wrecking Crew thing has been proven to be so OVER-BLOWN. Yes the CREW were great, yes they contributed wondrous tracks...NO they did not play on the majority of the material. Give them credit for Pet Sounds, give them credit for a bunch of Smile...give them credit for Rhonda, Cal Girls, GV's...and the other singles and LP tracks they helped Brian cut...but the Beach Boys were a BAND that PLAYED...they played on more than 20 of the BB's iconic top 40 hits...they played on tons of killer LP tracks...they played with the Wrecking Crew, and without. They brought in other players and told them what to play in later years...and they played themselves on a ton of later things too. Brian is beyond incredible...what he did just blows me and anyone with a soul away. But he had a GREAT support system. Oh Yeah...they were flawed people...they were not virtuoso musicians but they made that music we all love. Please give them credit for it. World peace can't get here soon enough for me.

[absinthe_boy]

Nobody is a total hero or villain. Brian evidently was supported to a degree that would have been sufficient for 90% of people....but Brian isn't 90% of people. Sure Mike can be an arse...I bet Brian can too. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, most of what seems to have happened down the decades can be understood.

It does seem that a few specific incidents of Mike not supporting Brian's musical ideas/direction stick in people's minds (including Brian's)...and that's understandable. On the other hand, as much as I love Brian's work and believe that it taps directly into my heart in a way few artists/composers can achieve....I really understand what Mike meant when he said something like 'don't mess with the formula'...I can understand why Mike would be sceptical of the more artistic material.

Every band in the history of music has had arguments.