The Reception Of BWPS

[MBE]

Sorry but they created no sense of history by not playing the 1966-67 tapes. It didn't mean as much as a movie and it didn't feel right when they covered the sixities. Leaf just can't make a film or a book without being reactionary..witness his Lennon film. He doesn't offer balance. THat said BWPS is better then I imagined big time, but I am someone who puts a much bigger priorty in listening to vintage Brian and vintage Beach Boys. TLOS was really good too, but it's not something I will play as often as Sunflower, Wild Honey, Today, All Summer Long, Pet Sounds, or even Spring. Hey I am glad Brian (to whatever extent he's involved) is taking part in some good music, but I hate the hype that has been going on since oh 1976. Beautiful Dreamer is just not a truthful film. I emjoy watching the concert part because that's music, but do you really think Brian was all of a sudden "cured"?

[b00ts]

Sorry but they created no sense of history by not playing the 1966-67 tapes. It didn't mean as much as a movie and it didn't feel right when they covered the sixities. Leaf just can't make a film or a book without being reactionary..witness his Lennon film. He doesn't offer balance. THat said BWPS is better then I imagined big time, but I am someone who puts a much bigger priorty in listening to vintage Brian and vintage Beach Boys. TLOS was really good too, but it's not something I will play as often as Sunflower, Wild Honey, Today, All Summer Long, Pet Sounds, or even Spring. Hey I am glad Brian (to whatever extent he's involved) is taking part in some good music, but I hate the hype that has been going on since oh 1976. Beautiful Dreamer is just not a truthful film. I emjoy watching the concert part because that's music, but do you really think Brian was all of a sudden "cured"?

Hey MBE -

I agree 100% about Leaf - he has an agenda in mind. Since you and I (and other hardcore BB fanatics) are aware of that agenda, it can make it easier to sift through the BS in a documentary like "Beautiful Dreamer," and find the nuggets of goodness within.

The first time that my lady and I watched "Beautiful Dreamer," I noticed the lack of old SMiLe material, and I had to explain to my girlfriend that a lot of the back-story to the original SMiLe was being interpreted in a very pro-Brian way; however, what less could one expect of an 'official' product? Was Endless Harmony biased?  An American Family?

I think the idea behind the publicity that has been going on in varying degrees since the late 1970s is that although Brian will never be cured, each new work of his is trotted out to the public in the same "Brian's Back" sort of publicity circus.

For SMiLe, I didn't mind it so much, as I can see through David Leaf's Agenda and genuinely enjoy watching the making of BWPS. Seeing the Darian-Cam footage of Brian and VDP getting to work on BWPS  (and Darian meeting VDP for the first time ever)  was excellent. Overall, I am glad the documentary exists, and while it is self/Leaf-serving, it also provides interesting context from Brian's camp's point of view. It is also more honest about Brian's problems making BWPS than I expected from an official product.

Perhaps this is because of the constant portrayal of Brian as a victim for whom we should feel pity. The BluBoard attitude, I call it. And this is what I disagree with vehemently; in many cases, it is easy to notice Brian phoning in and bullshitting an interview because it's the same old sh*t being asked of him. Questions about his father beating him, his nervous breakdowns, and questions designed to reassure the viewer/reader that Brian is 'on the road to recovery...' The same interview over and over again for 40 years. Usually, when they ask him about music, he is more forthcoming.

It's a shame that his own camp exploits his mental illness for record sales and prestige, but that's the way people in the market think. They lap it up. Prurient gossip becomes more and more prevalent in American media every second. Brian's people were in on this racket way back in the 1970s.

The documentary for TLOS bothered me. I don't like retreading old ground or hearing about how great Brian feels. I want to see them making the album, pretending to make the album, and giving valuable information about the album. I want to know about the music.

I'm also bloody sick of seeing Sean Lennon, Arctic Monkeys, Chumbawumba or whatever dogshite band is popular nowadays singing Brian's praises.  Billy Bob Thornton? Who the f*** cares?  It's filler and it perturbs me greatly. Just like the Beach Boys Bi-yearly Greatest hits compilations, the documentary is compromised in an attempt to satisfy every demographic. Keep the old fans, draw in new ones. "Billy Bob Thornton is my musical hero! I must go out and buy all of Brian's albums."

In the case of SMiLe, his mental illness figured into the making of that record greatly. For TLOS, it's "OK, back to square one, now Brian is healed for real, wink wink, until the 'Pleasure Island' documentary in 2011..."

b00ts

[MBE]

Well I see your point as far as what you can get out of the doc. I saw little bits that made me smile (pardon the pun) because Brian has a charm about him so watching is never dull. It can be painful though, and I guess I was surprised that they showed how serious Brian's panic attacks are. That said I wonder how he feels having that featured. Does he really want to be seen that way? I do like his band as people and how they interact with him and respect him. I just didn't like some of the other things I was seeing. Or that was implied.

[the captain]

Chumbawumba

Highlight of my day so far. Perhaps that means I ought to do more with my day or perhaps it means that was really funny. I'm fine with it regardless.

[TdHabib]

Sorry but they created no sense of history by not playing the 1966-67 tapes. It didn't mean as much as a movie and it didn't feel right when they covered the sixities. Leaf just can't make a film or a book without being reactionary..witness his Lennon film. He doesn't offer balance. THat said BWPS is better then I imagined big time, but I am someone who puts a much bigger priorty in listening to vintage Brian and vintage Beach Boys. TLOS was really good too, but it's not something I will play as often as Sunflower, Wild Honey, Today, All Summer Long, Pet Sounds, or even Spring. Hey I am glad Brian (to whatever extent he's involved) is taking part in some good music, but I hate the hype that has been going on since oh 1976. Beautiful Dreamer is just not a truthful film. I emjoy watching the concert part because that's music, but do you really think Brian was all of a sudden "cured"?

Good post. The Lennon doc bugged me because it was three hours or so of nothing but Lennon's praises. Also, not ONE mention of Macca the whole time. Beautiful Dreamer is a bit phony, I agree; but I must say that performing and recording SMiLE for good, as far as I'm concerned and I'm not in the know, did have a real significant effect on Brian's mental health. No he was not "cured" at all but I think it did much more good than harm.

[MBE]

You know I think it was good because if nothing else people aren't saying 'when are you gonna do something with Smile?' It's hard to guess more then that because I don't know him on a social level. I think his problems run far deeper then his career. Music has probably kept him going through the years, but his illness is something that was happening probably before the Beach Boys. I don't mean to sound down beat or make him out as a figure of pity, but I guess I would rather hear something more realistic out of his camp. You can see it in his eyes that this is a man who is troubled on some level, and you know what that's ok. All the Brian is better then ever stuff is I guess what I object to.

[The Heartical Don]

I am really enjoying the discussion as it is developing, thanks to all for the fine efforts.

bOOts has a big point. For, say, 33 years running, there is this 'Brain Is Back' theatrical piece going on. Brian is a shy, vulnerable man, with an awesome talent. The ideal person to take care of, and 'restore back to his former glories', as it were. And lots of people chimed in to be his healer.

I don't really know where the line between good intentions and exploitation has to be drawn. The person that most crossed that line is no doubt dr. Landy. Perhaps he lost sight of reality completely, and thought he could become a celebrated pop hero though his medium Brian Wilson. Anyway, he went to illegal lenghts to attain that status. About David Leaf, I do not know. He has commercial interests, of course. He wrote the first book touching the truth that lies behind the whole Beach Boys story as we knew it way back then. He's some kind of progenitor to Steven Gaines and Peter Ames Carlin. I am sure he has a Brian Wilson obsession (but all of us do). Up to now, I see no reason to suspect him of an improper hidden agenda.

Could be that Landy saved Brian's life. No, make that: I am sure he did. But what he also did was, apart from causing neurochemical damage, making Brian dependent of him and his crew, in a way that I never heard of before. For almost 10 years, I think. That is a very long time, and surely enough to indoctrinate a person with the idea that he cannot properly take care of himself. The Surf Nazis, the bleepers, the 24/7 scheme, Landy worming his way into Brian's art... he got reduced to the child he once was, exploited by his father.

Indoctrination is a bad thing. It can scar you for life. I am currently thinking about two column writers, who write for the two best newspapers I know. One of them was raised in totalitarian Rumania (under Ceaucescu), the other in totalitarian Iran. They are now in a free country, but write in a strange way. They can only think in black and white, nothing in between. Their thinking and feeling is still totalitarian, disguised nowadays. So their writing leads to strange results, and often is self-contradictory.

Sorry for meandering. But I think Landy harmed Brian in more than just the chemical way. Perhaps Brian became lifelong bait for each and every person who wanted something from him. And perhaps that is just why he never could be the true leader in a studio ever again.

Just some thoughts.

[Andrew G. Doe]

That Landy saved Brian's life in 1982/3 is beyond arguement... as is the fact that in 1991 Brian was within five years of being, at best a drooling vegetable, more likely dead, due entirely to the meds Landy was pumping him full of.

I met Landy a few times, and each time I found his smugness nauseating. Unlike the sainted Diane Sawyer, however, I had to play his games...

And the saga continues: seems inevitable that everyone who tries (or is engaged) to 'help' Brian winds up exploiting him in some way. Of course, Brian's not helping matters with his passive manipulation of his envoronment. Might be crazy, but he ain't stupid. 

[hypehat]

i might be alone in this, but i don't think the statement 'my wife and managers thought it was a good idea' isn't as sinister as some make it out. I guess the managers side of the discussion was to tell them it was possible. And if anyone should encourage brian, it should be his wife or close friends like leaf (However bad a journalist/filmmaker, he's on Brians side). who else would do it? His therapist? imo, Brian would never have tackled Smile again without some nudging, and i don't think Melindas role in it was related to the music - composing the new bits, choosing running order, 'production' credits, etc - just helping brian get through it, so i think that's alright - they left brian, vdp and darian for the music. Of course, it's how i see these things, and someone else might see more sinister things. There's a definite line when it comes to nudging someone and forcing them. I'm not sure where it lies with BWPS. In the long run, 'completing' it is probably better for his mental health.

I see more harm/manipulation in the continual stream of touring, personally. Now that's one thing we know for sure freaks him out. It puts strain on his voice, leaves less time for writing, puts him in a whole lot of situations he hates, and keeps him away from his kids.

A few ill-ordered thoughts....

Oh, and Diane Sawyer kicked ass on that ABC thing. I saw it on youtube and the whole thing was as scary as hell.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Oh, and Diane Sawyer kicked ass on that ABC thing. I saw it on youtube and the whole thing was as scary as hell.

Not seen it for a while so might be misremembering part of another TV interview... but does anyone else think that the mysterious, anonymous alleged "former Brother Records employee" looks and sounds awfully familiar (even in silloutte) ?

[The Heartical Don]

i might be alone in this, but i don't think the statement 'my wife and managers thought it was a good idea' isn't as sinister as some make it out. I guess the managers side of the discussion was to tell them it was possible. And if anyone should encourage brian, it should be his wife or close friends like leaf (However bad a journalist/filmmaker, he's on Brians side). who else would do it? His therapist? imo, Brian would never have tackled Smile again without some nudging, and i don't think Melindas role in it was related to the music - composing the new bits, choosing running order, 'production' credits, etc - just helping brian get through it, so i think that's alright - they left brian, vdp and darian for the music. Of course, it's how i see these things, and someone else might see more sinister things. There's a definite line when it comes to nudging someone and forcing them. I'm not sure where it lies with BWPS. In the long run, 'completing' it is probably better for his mental health.

I see more harm/manipulation in the continual stream of touring, personally. Now that's one thing we know for sure freaks him out. It puts strain on his voice, leaves less time for writing, puts him in a whole lot of situations he hates, and keeps him away from his kids.

A few ill-ordered thoughts....

Oh, and Diane Sawyer kicked ass on that ABC thing. I saw it on youtube and the whole thing was as scary as hell.

Well, actually I like your words a lot. I'd say that Brian needs some prodding, no doubt. Depressed people do. Exercise (by sports, or by touring) decreases the symptoms of depressive disorder (scientific fact). And: by his nature, Brian is modest. He'd never say: 'hey, chum, it was I and I alone who got this totally brilliant fooking good idea to finish SMiLE and throw it into this world, this godforsaken planet needs my masterpiede NOW!!'

Part of his personality must be slightly deformed, by the way, by these two questions, leveled at him 10,000 times per year over 40 years:

'Brian, will you ever make another Pet Sounds?'

'Brian, when will you finish SMiLE?'

No one can come out of this intact...

[TdHabib]

Oh, and Diane Sawyer kicked ass on that ABC thing. I saw it on youtube and the whole thing was as scary as hell.

Not seen it for a while so might be misremembering part of another TV interview... but does anyone else think that the mysterious, anonymous alleged "former Brother Records employee" looks and sounds awfully familiar (even in silloutte) ?

Melinda

[Andrew G. Doe]

 

[b00ts]

Chumbawumba

Highlight of my day so far. Perhaps that means I ought to do more with my day or perhaps it means that was really funny. I'm fine with it regardless.

You're the best! You see what I mean, as well... the inclusion of people totally unrelated to the history of the BB's/BW is often perfunctory and sometimes renders these documentaries dated.

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous. Brian often lacks tact. As for his touring, someone here stated a while back that Brian's people don't make money off of his tours. Especially with the strings and horns, I can see how this makes sense... or since they are from Sweden, does Brian not have to pay US union wages??

Anyway, arriving slowly to my flimsy point - while I am sure touring is not pleasant for Brian 100% of the time, it does seem to be good for him, giving him much-needed structure and exercise. The idea that he is being trotted out like a circus bear is horrifying - and if he is not making a profit from touring, why would be continue doing it year after year?

As others have mentioned, this is a very cool thread. Even though I am sort of getting off topic with the above question.

[the captain]

Especially with the strings and horns, I can see how this makes sense... or since they are from Sweden, does Brian not have to pay US union wages??

I'd guess the union rules have to do with the nation in which they are playing. That would be analogous to playing in different states in America, at least, where certain among them have stricter rules than others. If they were going by the home-country of the musicians, though, I can't imagine it would be cheaper to employ Swedish musicians than Americans, considering their more socialist leanings.

Anyway, it can't be cheap when he trots out the big group.

[lance]

I cant read. stupid.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous.

The response is innocuous. The truth behind the response is not innocuous.

[hypehat]

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous.

The response is innocuous. The truth behind the response is not innocuous.

What? 'grrr, finish Smile and i'll give you a milkshake?' Please. Even Landy couldn't get Smile out.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous.

The response is innocuous. The truth behind the response is not innocuous.

What? 'grrr, finish Smile and i'll give you a milkshake?' Please. Even Landy couldn't get Smile out.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[hypehat]

it didn't sell millions of copies, and as Luther et al were saying up there, touring a 12 piece band and orchestra round the world for a year doesn't come cheap. there are more profitable ways to fleece Brian, if that were the case.

[runnersdialzero]

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous.

The response is innocuous. The truth behind the response is not innocuous.

What? 'grrr, finish Smile and i'll give you a milkshake?' Please. Even Landy couldn't get Smile out.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Any artist who puts out an album or tours is trying to make money.

I certainly don't think BWPS was put out solely for money. The guy doesn't need it anymore, and it's not like Smile sold millions of copies - I don't think anyone expected that.

Regardless, finishing it DID seem to have a positive effect on Brian, which I think is a very good thing.

[Sheriff John Stone]

it didn't sell millions of copies, and as Luther et al were saying up there, touring a 12 piece band and orchestra round the world for a year doesn't come cheap. there are more profitable ways to fleece Brian, if that were the case.

It was a combinations of things.

Melinda: "Brian, I talked with David Leaf, Mr. Manager, and Mr. Accountant. They told me that we can sell so many albums, it will give you something "new" to tour, David can develop a DVD out of it, we can sell a lot of T-shirts, programs, merchandise, we'll get a lot of free publicity because of the "history", it might lead to a new recording contract with a major label, and you don't have any new material to record anyway. Oh, and it might be a cathartic experience for you. Let me call Darian and see what he can do."

That's my opinion. You don't agree. Fine.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Of Brian's major headlining US tours, only the 1999 shows made money (just, and that was largely due to the merchandising - obviously, the tour opening for Paul Simon is an exception): the 2000 Pet Sounds tour lost something in the region of $500,000. Brian hasn't done an extended US tour since summer 2005. The overseas tours are a different proposition, as promoters take the financial burden, but even so, of late Brian has been regarded as a poor risk, hence the festival jaunts of 2007 and this year, and the 3-gig mini UK tour of 2008.

Here's something to ponder - had the Wilsons chosen to fund the sessions for TLOS themselves, the album would have caught the post-premier momentum and been in the stores a good nine months earlier than it was... but for whatever reason, they didn't. And some folk were very unhappy about that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Any artist who puts out an album or tours is trying to make money.

I certainly don't think BWPS was put out solely for money. The guy doesn't need it anymore, and it's not like Smile sold millions of copies - I don't think anyone expected that.

Regardless, finishing it DID seem to have a positive effect on Brian, which I think is a very good thing.

1. ANY artist? Dylan, McCartney, Paul Simon, Ray Davies, Clapton? Do you think any of them are thinking much about the money these days?

2. They (Brian's team) could profit in other ways than album sales; see my above post.

3. In this thread, I have read several posters state that BWPS had a positive effect on Brian. Can somebody list some? I see a Brian who has aged since BWPS (yes, I know he's older); he hasn't looked well in some of the recent appearances; he appears to be slurring again in interviews and doesn't appear as focused. I was listening to BW88 and Imagination lately. When taking the bulk of the tunes off both of those albums and comparing them to WIRWFC and TLOS, I don't see much difference in quality or performance (I think his vocal on "Goin' Home" is one of his worst since 15 Big Ones). He has employed better producers and collaborators; I'll give him credit for that. But what am I supposed to see in Brian that BWPS made better?

Very late edit: Add Lou Reed to that list of artists.

[hypehat]

Any artist who puts out an album or tours is trying to make money.

I certainly don't think BWPS was put out solely for money. The guy doesn't need it anymore, and it's not like Smile sold millions of copies - I don't think anyone expected that.

Regardless, finishing it DID seem to have a positive effect on Brian, which I think is a very good thing.

1. ANY artist? Dylan, McCartney, Paul Simon, Ray Davies, Clapton? Do you think any of them are thinking much about the money these days?

2. They (Brian's team) could profit in other ways than album sales; see my above post.

3. In this thread, I have read several posters state that BWPS had a positive effect on Brian. Can somebody list some? I see a Brian who has aged since BWPS (yes, I know he's older); he hasn't looked well in some of the recent appearances; he appears to be slurring again in interviews and doesn't appear as focused. I was listening to BW88 and Imagination lately. When taking the bulk of the tunes off both of those albums and comparing them to WIRWFC and TLOS, I don't see much difference in quality or performance (I think his vocal on "Goin' Home" is one of his worst since 15 Big Ones). He has employed better producers and collaborators; I'll give him credit for that. But what am I supposed to see in Brian that BWPS made better?

I point you to the The Beatles Rock Band, coming out in september. A fine highpoint in the Fab Fours artistic career, totally not done for $$$.
Of course they think about money. everyone does, regardless of how much they have.

And AGD just said they didn't profit in anyway from touring, so i don't have to talk about that. They lost half a million dollars! How much more proof do you need?

And no-one said we expected Brian to suddenly snap back to his old self.  And he's not getting younger, and he hates interviews, and life on the road sucks for him. But that's different stuff. i think BWPS helped him psychologically. It's closure for a source of deep pain for him. That's not Leaf-esque blather, it's common sense. It's not going to reverse 30 years of all kinds of drug abuse and the mental effects thereof. But it's something, right?

That's my opinion. You don't agree. Fine.

Of course. All's cool