Brian's production tricks: things over looked in BWPS and many Smile playlists

[Sheriff John Stone]

Darian, we want you to re-record "Our Prayer", replacing The Beach Boys' voices, and re-record "Cabinessence", replacing Carl Wilson's vocals.

And here we have it again:  nothing has been replaced.  "Prayer" is still available in its untouched box-set form.  Arguably the Beach Boys did more to "replace" the original before then, when the only version they made available for a quarter of a century was the overdubbed one in '69.  (And replacing the unreleased "Wonderful" with the Smiley Smile version is just mind-boggling.)  Brian, Darian, and company created a new version -- one which achieved what Brian couldn't in '67.  It stands alongside the original releases, not on top of their ruins.

Jonathan, you're leaving out one very important detail. When The Beach Boys released those above songs, they didn't refer to them as the "finished SMiLE". But, when Brian re-recorded those same songs, HE DID! And that is the basis of my argument right there.

You can't take a bunch of old SMiLE era songs that were assembled, sequenced, arranged, and rehearsed - FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF A LIVE PERFORMANCE - and then, turn around and re-record them, note for note, with absolutely nothing new added or substracted from the live performance, and proclaim, "This is the finished SMiLE". But, that's exactly what Brian did. Why? Because an ex-car salesperson with three young kids and a big mortgage thought it was good idea? What happened to Jeff Foskett's pre-BWPS concert speech (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is just a live performance of SMiLE and we're just doing our best to perform these songs to the best of our abilities." Little did Jeff know at that time that he WAS performing THE FINISHED SMiLE! How about that......

[Sheriff John Stone]

Speaking for myself, it's the leap beyond that to the idea that many outside here agree with him which I was faulting.

For that matter, I'd even question the "many here", bit.  A few, loud people here agree with him -- but if you look at the poll even on this site, seriously about ten times as many people voted Smile 5/5 as gave it 2/5 or less.

Jonathan, you got it wrong again. It's not about "a few loud" people, or the polls. You're forgetting about The Silent Majority.

[Jonathan Blum]

Jonathan, you're leaving out one very important detail. When The Beach Boys released those above songs, they didn't refer to them as the "finished SMiLE". But, when Brian re-recorded those same songs, HE DID!

...And?

Doesn't change the point, nothing's been "replaced".  If you're interested in the legend of Smile, you'll know the Beach Boys versions of those tracks exist -- and they're right there on CD or (AFAIK) iTunes.  Smile the unfinished Beach Boys album is still there.  Smile the finished Brian Wilson album is too.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Mr. Cohen]

Don't the forget the silent minorities, too. They factor in. The loud minorities too. Not sure if there is a loud majority, or it's that they don't seem loud too each other because they're all yelling at the same time, and our ears getting adjusted to a higher volume of sound.

[Jonathan Blum]

Jonathan, you got it wrong again. It's not about "a few loud" people, or the polls. You're forgetting about The Silent Majority.

That's the thing about silent majorities, they're always so *vocal* about it...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[buddhahat]

BWPS however is not the same. Firstly the principle composers are significantly involved in the 'reconstruction', unlike Knossos Palace. Secondly they are not attaching the new bits (e.g. the new melody/words to Blue Hawaii/dada) to the original fragments, which means the original sessions remain entirely unspoiled by the new reconstruction. This allows the hardcore fan to easily appreciate the ruins as they stood in 67, to discern what in the 04 rebuild is largely authentic to the original design (i.e. Cabinessence) and to spot what is a new addition.

Respectfully, buddhahat, I could not disagree more. I do not believe Brian Wilson was significantly involved in the "reconstruction" at all. I believe Darian did the overwhelming majority of the work, both creatively and physically. And, I believe Van Dyke Parks filled in the gaps, both with the lyrics and the "linking music".

Second, ATTACHING NEW BITS is exactly what they did do. They changed the song titles, the endings (eliminating the great fades), added new lyrics (to the instrumentals), put in discarded lyrics (in "Good Vibrations"), added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

You really think Brian Wilson was SIGNIFICANTLY involved? He didn't sequence it (he's admiited that), he didn't write the new lyrics and new music (Darian and Van Dyke did that), and, did he even show up for the recording of the music? Oh, sure, he didn't have to; he wasn't gonna play anything anyway, but do you think he could've at least been interested enough to show up? Just to do some of that "fake producing". Hell, the idea to "finish" SMiLE wasn't his idea anyway. It was his wife's!

Sheriff - As Jhon Blum mentioned earlier, they have not attached new bits to the original sessions. They have re-recorded a new production, and the distinction is important because it means the Smile you loved pre-BWPS still exists. It is only in your mind that Melinda et al have foda'd with your Smile, please believe me!

I think what this discussion always boils down to is the legitimacy of calling BWPS the finished Smile. Logically the best answer to this is what do Brian and VDP think? Unfortunately as Brian is mentally ill, if he is quoted as saying BWPS is the finished Smile, half the Smile fans will argue that he is just a puppet for his management and has words placed in his mouth prior to interviews. Likewise if he moans that he was totally co-erced into working on BWPS and had F all to do with it, the other half will argue that he's having one of his bad days. Both sides of the debate can throw quotes at each other but I don't think it ever resolves the dispute.

Personally from all the quotes I've read from the principle participants, my hunch is that Brian collected the songs together into groups that grew into the movements, and also had final say in what to keep and what to trash i.e. He Gives Speeches. He also was responsible for the fantastic segue from Wonderful into Look, he remembered the missing melody to Worms, and he wrote some new melodies such as the verse bit to Child, and the melody to Blue Hawaii. I think the more complex work of sequencing the internal structure of songs, and organising the entire piece to make it flow aesthetically and work conceptually was probably more the work of VDP and Darian, but even then I may be short-changing Brian in this assumption. I think he's far more capable creatively than many people give him credit. My point though, is my hunch of who did what probably works out at a fairly even 3 way split, 33% Darian, 66% Brian/VDP which makes me happy to consider BWPS the composition (not the studio recording) as predominately the work of the original composers (and this is not taking into consideration the original work they did in 66/67 - just the new stuff. Of course this all just my hunch, and utterly worthless as a result, but it means I can put  my copy on the turntable and think Wow! Brian and VDP finished Smile and it sounds great!

[The Song Of The Grange]

I guess to sum things up at the end of this thread, I still think that BWPS's biggest (and unavoidable) problem is that the box set songs were copied verbatim for the most part, and all other tracks that were only in bootleg form were copied from that bootleg form (I'm In Great Shape, Barnyard etc).  Looking at BW's output from GV to the Smiley Smile release, nearly everything has a touch of BW's production and mixdown wizardry (as mentioned in the original post of the thread).  What we are missing with BWSP (as great as it is to have in our lives) is that brilliant 1967 BW production mind.  Listen to the tracking sessions for H&V or Smiley Smile or even GV.  Just slicing the pieces of music together in the right order doesn't approximate the finished BW product.  She's Going Bald gets a tape speed trick, H&V cantina version gets a big blast of tape feedback.  I am arguing that nearly everything on the box set would have had these production touches, which we don't get because the track never got to the key mixdown stage when Brian put these final touches on.  It would have made a big difference in what the final song was, as can be seen by that Jan 67 H&V mix.

[sofonanm]

I guess to sum things up at the end of this thread, I still think that BWPS's biggest (and unavoidable) problem is that the box set songs were copied verbatim for the most part, and all other tracks that were only in bootleg form were copied from that bootleg form (I'm In Great Shape, Barnyard etc).  Looking at BW's output from GV to the Smiley Smile release, nearly everything has a touch of BW's production and mixdown wizardry (as mentioned in the original post of the thread).  What we are missing with BWSP (as great as it is to have in our lives) is that brilliant 1967 BW production mind.  Listen to the tracking sessions for H&V or Smiley Smile or even GV.  Just slicing the pieces of music together in the right order doesn't approximate the finished BW product.  She's Going Bald gets a tape speed trick, H&V cantina version gets a big blast of tape feedback.  I am arguing that nearly everything on the box set would have had these production touches, which we don't get because the track never got to the key mixdown stage when Brian put these final touches on.  It would have made a big difference in what the final song was, as can be seen by that Jan 67 H&V mix.

For BWPS were the stand-alone tracks and linked tracks performed live and recorded all way through (i.e., no modular recording style like the original sessions)?

The answer is probably a Yes but I think it has a fair amount of meaning to this discussion. Part of the charm of the SMiLE sessions to me is the modular recording style and the finished product (as seen on Good Vibrations, glimpsed on Heroes and Villains, and demonstrated on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, etc.,) which had its own unique sound as a result of it. BWPS probably would've sounded less sterile to my ears if they had continued in this style (which, although much more difficult than just recording the full songs live, would still be a lot easier in Pro Tools days than when Brian was doing it).

[Andy B]

From what i understood, i thought the sections were recorded in pieces, just like the 66/67 originals. But i think the big difference probably is, is that they were most likely recorded in sequence and in the same studio, on the same day, with the same musicians, in the same positions, with everything set up exactly the same. So even though they used the modular technique to edit the thing together, there was less scope for randomness and variety and just plain different vibes to influence each individual piece.

Unlike the original recordings which seemed to be recorded at random, at different studios, etc.

The same but different. Kind of sums up BWPS.

[Chris Brown]

From what i understood, i thought the sections were recorded in pieces, just like the 66/67 originals. But i think the big difference probably is, is that they were most likely recorded in sequence and in the same studio, on the same day, with the same musicians, in the same positions, with everything set up exactly the same. So even though they used the modular technique to edit the thing together, there was less scope for randomness and variety and just plain different vibes to influence each individual piece.

Unlike the original recordings which seemed to be recorded at random, at different studios, etc.

The same but different. Kind of sums up BWPS.

You're right Andy...the recording techniques were discussed at length in the great Sound on Sound article around that time.  Ironically, the one exception was "Good Vibrations," which was played straight through without edits.

[sofonanm]

From what i understood, i thought the sections were recorded in pieces, just like the 66/67 originals. But i think the big difference probably is, is that they were most likely recorded in sequence and in the same studio, on the same day, with the same musicians, in the same positions, with everything set up exactly the same. So even though they used the modular technique to edit the thing together, there was less scope for randomness and variety and just plain different vibes to influence each individual piece.

Unlike the original recordings which seemed to be recorded at random, at different studios, etc.

The same but different. Kind of sums up BWPS.

Interesting.

[Menace Wilson]

I love BWPS, but there has always been something about the CD that leaves me less than completely satisfied, and I think I figured out what it is after purchasing and listening to the Good Vibrations CD single.

On the single, there's an instrumental version of "In Blue Hawaii".  Exactly the same mix as on BWPS so far as I can tell, except minus the vocals. 

It sounds fantastic to me.

IMO, the major difference between the new Smile and the old is the quality of the vocals, particularly some of the harmonies.  As great as Wilson's new band is, they just didn't deliver the vocal alchemy that the BBs did on those cuts.  In fact I think the vocals sound much better on TLOS.  There are bits on BWPS when it sounds to me as if the guy with the least great voice was standing closest to the mic....   

[sofonanm]

In fact I think the vocals sound much better on TLOS.  There are bits on BWPS when it sounds to me as if the guy with the least great voice was standing closest to the mic....   

I agree, except for "That sucky old / sucky old / sucky old sun"... 

[Menace Wilson]

In fact I think the vocals sound much better on TLOS.  There are bits on BWPS when it sounds to me as if the guy with the least great voice was standing closest to the mic....   

I agree, except for "That sucky old / sucky old / sucky old sun"... 

 

[Sheriff John Stone]

I love BWPS, but there has always been something about the CD that leaves me less than completely satisfied...

Welcome Menace, allow me to introduce myself; I couldn't help but notice....

[andy]

You can't take a bunch of old SMiLE era songs that were assembled, sequenced, arranged, and rehearsed - FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF A LIVE PERFORMANCE - and then, turn around and re-record them, note for note, with absolutely nothing new added or substracted from the live performance, and proclaim, "This is the finished SMiLE". But, that's exactly what Brian did. Why? Because an ex-car salesperson with three young kids and a big mortgage thought it was good idea? What happened to Jeff Foskett's pre-BWPS concert speech (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is just a live performance of SMiLE and we're just doing our best to perform these songs to the best of our abilities." Little did Jeff know at that time that he WAS performing THE FINISHED SMiLE! How about that......

For some reason, this piece of fact is conveniently ignored when people claim SMiLE as finished.

[sofonanm]

You can't take a bunch of old SMiLE era songs that were assembled, sequenced, arranged, and rehearsed - FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF A LIVE PERFORMANCE - and then, turn around and re-record them, note for note, with absolutely nothing new added or substracted from the live performance, and proclaim, "This is the finished SMiLE". But, that's exactly what Brian did. Why? Because an ex-car salesperson with three young kids and a big mortgage thought it was good idea? What happened to Jeff Foskett's pre-BWPS concert speech (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is just a live performance of SMiLE and we're just doing our best to perform these songs to the best of our abilities." Little did Jeff know at that time that he WAS performing THE FINISHED SMiLE! How about that......

For some reason, this piece of fact is conveniently ignored when people claim SMiLE as finished.

Surely people of that opinion will say that the live performance IS what they worked out as the finished SMiLE?

I'm glad you posted; this discussion was beginning to die. I was getting bored.

BWPS is the difference between a 24 year old guy and a 60 plus year old guy.

More than that - it's the difference between a 24 year old Brian Wilson and a 60 plus year old Brian Wilson. It's like two different people.

[Mahalo]

MAybe Brian deliberately released BWPS as is to enhance the original 66/67 tapes. 

[Mahalo]

I'm glad you posted; this discussion was beginning to die. I was getting bored.

The reason is because it turned into a BWPS bashing thread. I would love to talk specifics about the production of BWPS compared to the original tapes...such as the 'thump' in the Bicycle Rider chorus that was lost on BWPS, or the structure of H&V, or whatever. Then the discussion would ultimately consist of intelligent discussions not only about BWPS but also the genius of the original SMiLE sessions and how they could never ever ever be reproduced as magically as they once were. Doesn't really matter, but I can totally relate to everyone's antipathy to BWPS- however I like it for what it is, not hate it for what it is not.

[sofonanm]

I'm glad you posted; this discussion was beginning to die. I was getting bored.

The reason is because it turned into a BWPS bashing thread. I would love to talk specifics about the production of BWPS compared to the original tapes...such as the 'thump' in the Bicycle Rider chorus that was lost on BWPS, or the structure of H&V, or whatever...

Or the digital clipping right at the beginning of "Our Prayer" on BWPS that ruins the album from the very first second? 

[Mahalo]

I'm glad you posted; this discussion was beginning to die. I was getting bored.

The reason is because it turned into a BWPS bashing thread. I would love to talk specifics about the production of BWPS compared to the original tapes...such as the 'thump' in the Bicycle Rider chorus that was lost on BWPS, or the structure of H&V, or whatever...

Or the digital clipping right at the beginning of "Our Prayer" on BWPS that ruins the album from the very first second? 

Exactly...but er.....what is digital clipping? I'm not hip to all that technical stuff.

[andy]

In this instance, it's not digital clipping as much as a bad edit. The sound heard is the end of someone inhaling, enhanced by reverb.

Also, I don't mind people saying saying that SMiLE was finished on some level, because it was.

I just think it's a lame to say "BWPS is better than 66/67 because it's finished", when the intent of finishing SMiLE in '03/'04 was for a live presentation, not a studio album.

 

[sofonanm]

I just think it's a lame to say "BWPS is better than 66/67 because it's finished", when the intent of finishing SMiLE in '03/'04 was for a live presentation, not a studio album.

Methinks the most fishy thing about it is that in every interview about why he decided to finish SMiLE, Brian says: Oh, my publicity agents and my wife said Brian: I think it's time to do SMiLE!. It's never: I was sitting around at home tinkering on my piano and I was reflecting on how my masterpiece from my youth was never finished. So I called up Van Dyke Parks and asked him to help me once again in completing the project. Then I told my wife and managers and they were all for it!

 

[Mr. Cohen]

The reason is because it turned into a BWPS bashing thread. I would love to talk specifics about the production of BWPS compared to the original tapes...such as the 'thump' in the Bicycle Rider chorus that was lost on BWPS, or the structure of H&V, or whatever...

Yeah, I thought that the "Bicycle Rider" chorus never sounded finished on the Smile outtakes, but they barely changed it on BWPS.

The "Who Ran the Iron Horse" is missing some fuzz and the railroad crossing sound was cooler when it was played on the bridge of a guitar instead of a on hubcap (I suppose now it sounds more like someone hammering a spike, but I thought the chorus was supposed to sound like a train going by). The extra fuzz, coupled with some occasional violin squeaks on the Smile version, make it really sound like a train.

The cool bass part on the chorus of "Child is Father of the Man" is lower in the mix on BWPS. That a part lways sounded way ahead of its time, like something out of a Boards of Canada or Aphex Twin song.

The BWPS "Wind Chimes" sounds like it should be on Broadway, and I don't mean that in a good way.

[sofonanm]

The cool bass part on the chorus of "Child is Father of the Man" is lower in the mix on BWPS. That a part lways sounded way ahead of its time, like something out of a Boards of Canada or Aphex Twin song.

The BWPS "Wind Chimes" sounds like it should be on Broadway, and I don't mean that in a good way.

On the SMiLE live DVD performance thingy... the funniest moment is when Brian goes "Wind chiiiimes" and throws his head and hands back in a grin... the camera quickly moves away like "Erm, this is kind of embarrassing".

On the subject of the bass (again) - Brian's use of fuzz bass is some of the most tasteful of that era. Listen to the bass in the chorus of Child - it fits so perfectly. The tone is perfect, full of life. On BWPS it's low in the mix and has no low end. It has no guts.