Their place in history

[mikeyj]

I'm sure this sort of topic has come up before, but how do you guys reckon the Beach Boys will be remembered in rock history in say 100 years time? I mean will they just be remembered for Pet Sounds and a few hits? and/or remembered for having a genius in the band? etc.. You get my point. Will be interested to hear some opinions. It just got me thinking because I wonder where they will sit compared to all the other "great" artists such as the Beatles, Dylan etc.. in a century from now when we are all gone.

[Chris Brown]

I think the Boys themselves will be remembered for Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, and Brian will be remembered as one of the greatest pop composers of the 20th century, along with those you mentioned like Dylan and the Beatles. 

I also think that Brian's acclaim will overshadow that of the Boys, just because I believe that time will be more kind to composers than to performers.  People will be performing the songs of the greats until the end of time, thus keeping their names in high regard.

[Jonas]

I think they'll be remembered for Surfin USA, Safari, and Fun Fun Fun a bit more than Pet Sounds...

[the captain]

To me, the most telling thing is the 40+ years we've already seen. And what those tell us is, the highlights change. Looking at other artists over time gives a similar message. There was a time when Mendelssohn was as well regarded and oft-performed as Mozart. Did Mendelssohn get worse? Did Mozart get better? Times change. Fashion changes, not just over year-to-year or decade-to-decade, but in historical time: generations and more. So how will they be remembered? I'd ask: by whom and when? Because the answer will vary.

[mikeyj]

To me, the most telling thing is the 40+ years we've already seen. And what those tell us is, the highlights change. Looking at other artists over time gives a similar message. There was a time when Mendelssohn was as well regarded and oft-performed as Mozart. Did Mendelssohn get worse? Did Mozart get better? Times change. Fashion changes, not just over year-to-year or decade-to-decade, but in historical time: generations and more. So how will they be remembered? I'd ask: by whom and when? Because the answer will vary.

Yeah that's a very good point Luther... but obviously I just mean generally... of course opinions will vary, I'm sure there will still be nutcases like us obsessing over the Beach Boys but I just want to know generally. Like generally (at least as far as I know) Beethoven is the most well known classical composer amongst the general public, so I'm wondering will the Beach Boys/Brian just be a minor blip on the radar who had one good album and a few hits or will they be much more than that?

[Sheriff John Stone]

The Beach Boys will be remembered for three main things. First, as a great singles band who sang about surfing, cars, and California. Second, for their longevity, having lasted for over 50 years. And third, unfortunately, for the litigation, members coming and going, and low periods.

Brian Wilson will be remembered for three things also. First, as a musical genius who not only produced great singles, but Pet Sounds and SMiLE, which were influential. Second, for his drug abusze and mental illness. And third, maybe, for his later solo career, which will have lasted as long, if not longer than his career as a Beach Boy.

[Shady]

I think the fact that their later album such as Sunflower and Wild Honey are being recognised more now than when they were realeased is a good indicator.

To quote Ricky Gevais 'you can't resist The Beach Boys'

[The Heartical Don]

I doubt whether 'rock' will be remembered as a high point in the history of popular music at all in, say, 2100. What I already see in the years since grunge (itself a rehash of older 'riffing', nothing new there) is stagnation. Numerous bands thought to last forever don't play any major role anymore in the hearts of the young (e.g. Creedence).
History has a way of weeding out the temporal, the unimportant. Does any of you listen to Janis Joplin and her Holding Cy.? I thought so. 'Woodstock' and 'punk' will be seen as a funny diversion, but not held in any high esteem. Most of punk was sh*t anyway, I mean - a movement proud of its own incompetency? Come on!

If I look into my crystal ball, I see:
staying powers for the works of the Beach Boys, the Beatles... the real composers. So Motown is in there too; and Dylan is a towering figure in another field: as the creator of a lasting body of folk music. The Stones, on the other hand, will remain minor fringe figures, known for their endless riffing, wallowing in their own (and others') dirt.

The special thing with the pop era is that the performance itself has been recorded for posterity. So it is to be doubted whether, as in classical music, there will be that peculiar use of the written compositions to be recorded again and again on a yearly basis by a changing roster of artists. What use is it to let others sing 'What's Going On?' if you have Marvin's originals at hand? Not much, in my opinion.

And here's my conviction: of all pop geniuses, perhaps Brian's work will indeed be done over again the most by many others: choirs, little ensembles, electronics wizards, et cetera. I was witness to BBs evenings in Holland where a whole array of artists (string quartets, classically trained countertenors, jazz groups) did the finest of Brian - and they were wonderful.

[lance]

And yet, whenever I go to the clubs here in Euro-land over half the songs are just snippets of old songs, like a chorus from a sixties song with a new backing. Think Stars on 45 for the rest of eternity.

I think Brian will be remembered, by those who care, about the same as he is now.  The Beach Boys, once their music goes under public domain, probably in a hundred years will be sampled and stuck into crappy disco songs.

[The Heartical Don]

And yet, whenever I go to the clubs here in Euro-land over half the songs are just snippets of old songs, like a chorus from a sixties song with a new backing. Think Stars on 45 for the rest of eternity.

I think Brian will be remembered, by those who care, about the same as he is now.  The Beach Boys, once their music goes under public domain, probably in a hundred years will be sampled and stuck into crappy disco songs.

The Beach Boys followed by Boney M in any cheap deesco? C'mon! 

[lance]

I think that's the future!!! Five minutes of crushing beats with the chorus to good vibrations popping up every thirty seconds. Or maybe just the "Oh, I love the colorful clothes she wears" part.
 Stars on 45 as the Mozart of the twentieth century!! Every hook recycled and repeated until you go mad.

To balance it out, the focus will go to people playing guitars in their living rooms for a niche market of about five persons.

[the captain]

Yeah that's a very good point Luther... but obviously I just mean generally... of course opinions will vary, I'm sure there will still be nutcases like us obsessing over the Beach Boys but I just want to know generally. Like generally (at least as far as I know) Beethoven is the most well known classical composer amongst the general public, so I'm wondering will the Beach Boys/Brian just be a minor blip on the radar who had one good album and a few hits or will they be much more than that?

But that's just it, I mean generally, too. General opinions will change over time. There isn't ever a point where the influences that raise and lower the common opinion, the general consensus, will stop: not until the world ends, at which point nobody will be reporting where it all stopped. General consensus on the Beach Boys was quite different 20 years ago than 10 years ago, for example. 50 years from now it will be different, but that isn't where it ends. General consensus always changes--and I don't know that it becomes a truer evaluation. The aforementioned lessening of Mendelssohn's status is often attributed to Richard Wagner's (anti-Semitic inspired) hatchet job on him. For better or worse, it made a huge difference. What will continue to change people's feelings about the Beach Boys? Reissue projects and accompanying P.R. campaigns, for example. Some journalist going nuts and doing the definitive work. Some yet-to-be born popular music digging up a lost gem.

[the captain]

I doubt whether 'rock' will be remembered as a high point in the history of popular music at all in, say, 2100.

I think it will be thought of in the same way jazz is now (and what is commonly called classical was before it). And hip hop will eventually take the next spot. And something else will come next. It just plugged a several-decades-long hole, as something always does.

[The Shift]

I think in 2109 the BBs' importance won't have been forgotten, but they'll be viewed more as one of many major stepping stones in the development of rock and pop than for any one particular album. The law suits and Brian's personal problems will have been long-forgotten, seen by then as irrelevant to the music.

As time progresses towards 2109, and fewer outstanding bands arise to take rock & pop on to its next step, we'll look back to the early ’60s and have our minds blown by the fact that there were so many "giant step" acts in those early decades of rock and pop.

Then, in 2110, the Capitol-Disney-Nestle Corporation will release a laser pin of the SMiLE sessions, including the long-lost final mix of the long-lost Dumb Angel tapes, all re-re-remastered (using the Large Hadron Collider, for Big Bang perfection) in 12.1 internalised sound (speakers implanted in your ears, temple, colon and buttocks).

And everyone will say: "Hang on, this sounds just like Oasis's last album!"

[Jon Stebbins]

The Heartical commentary..."any of you listen to Janis Joplin and her Holding Cy.? I thought so. 'Woodstock' and 'punk' will be seen as a funny diversion"

I do listen to Big Brother...its a thin catalog compared to the BB's...but the admittedly primitive performance thing they did in '66 to '68 was very unique. Psychedelic blues rock is incredible when its working, and IMO they made it work very well on occasion. The free form guitar of James Gurley was completely off the rails at times which i absolutely love...Iove that big stomping, loose, smoky sound with feedback and Janis wailing. The Big Brother vibe was really distinct as was the vibe/aura/style of many of the "Woodstock" or "Haight Ashbury" era groups. Punk Rock had its worthy elements as well, Ramones were fantastic when they were happening. The two categories you dismiss will have a lasting impact, at least elements of them. i agree the "songs" aren't as strong, but as with Jazz, sometimes its about the heart, the energy, the cutting edge of the performance that makes a lasting impact. I believe when people place entire genres into the "that's crap" category they reveal their own narrow-minded perspective, whether its hip hop, or techno, or blues, or jazz, or Psych, or disco...or Gershwin, or Wilson...there's usually a slice of anything that made an impact in its time that has some worthiness to it. Even Wham had some okay hooks...i guess. The Beach Boys, Brian...no doubt they will remain among the things with the most staying power when it comes to remembering the pop/rock era. But i love music from all eras, you just have to find the things that appeal and move you. Great music is definitely still being made if you take the time to find it, and music just as good was being made a hundred years ago. Beach Boys, Woodstock, Punk Rock...I think its all worthy, and it will all be remembered to a degree.

[lance]

I love Wham! Well, I like 'em.

[The Heartical Don]

The Heartical commentary..."any of you listen to Janis Joplin and her Holding Cy.? I thought so. 'Woodstock' and 'punk' will be seen as a funny diversion"

I do listen to Big Brother...its a thin catalog compared to the BB's...but the admittedly primitive performance thing they did in '66 to '68 was very unique. Psychedelic blues rock is incredible when its working, and IMO they made it work very well on occasion. The free form guitar of James Gurley was completely off the rails at times which i absolutely love...Iove that big stomping, loose, smoky sound with feedback and Janis wailing. The Big Brother vibe was really distinct as was the vibe/aura/style of many of the "Woodstock" or "Haight Ashbury" era groups. Punk Rock had its worthy elements as well, Ramones were fantastic when they were happening. The two categories you dismiss will have a lasting impact, at least elements of them. i agree the "songs" aren't as strong, but as with Jazz, sometimes its about the heart, the energy, the cutting edge of the performance that makes a lasting impact. I believe when people place entire genres into the "that's crap" category they reveal their own narrow-minded perspective, whether its hip hop, or techno, or blues, or jazz, or Psych, or disco...or Gershwin, or Wilson...there's usually a slice of anything that made an impact in its time that has some worthiness to it. Even Wham had some okay hooks...i guess. The Beach Boys, Brian...no doubt they will remain among the things with the most staying power when it comes to remembering the pop/rock era. But i love music from all eras, you just have to find the things that appeal and move you. Great music is definitely still being made if you take the time to find it, and music just as good was being made a hundred years ago. Beach Boys, Woodstock, Punk Rock...I think its all worthy, and it will all be remembered to a degree.

Hi Jon, thank you for adressing me in person. In fact, I proved myself wrong just yesterday evening, and you are right to a very decent degree. I watched a brilliant episode of the German crime series 'Tatort' on TV, it lasted 90 minutes, and it was about an inspector taking time off for being in some sort of midlife crisis. He went to the countryside in late summer, to his first real girlfriend (now in her 40s, and married, and a farmer woman). Of course a crime to be solved announced itself right there, but that is not my point.
In that rural area, with that early love flowering again, and set in a cinematographically beautiful evocation of that indian summer, every now and then one could hear late '60s music being played in the local tavern. Not loud, not as in the average soundtrack. Think: Hendrix, Doors, Woodstock. And I was very, very moved, as I never thought I'd be by this stuff. I even got so far as to look up which sampler CD would be a fitting purchase for me afterwards...

So: I stand corrected, not so much because you convinced me, but I literally felt it.

[The Heartical Don]

I think in 2109 the BBs' importance won't have been forgotten, but they'll be viewed more as one of many major stepping stones in the development of rock and pop than for any one particular album. The law suits and Brian's personal problems will have been long-forgotten, seen by then as irrelevant to the music.

As time progresses towards 2109, and fewer outstanding bands arise to take rock & pop on to its next step, we'll look back to the early ’60s and have our minds blown by the fact that there were so many "giant step" acts in those early decades of rock and pop.

Then, in 2110, the Capitol-Disney-Nestle Corporation will release a laser pin of the SMiLE sessions, including the long-lost final mix of the long-lost Dumb Angel tapes, all re-re-remastered (using the Large Hadron Collider, for Big Bang perfection) in 12.1 internalised sound (speakers implanted in your ears, temple, colon and buttocks).

And everyone will say: "Hang on, this sounds just like Oasis's last album!"

Great post, with many a laugh! 

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

In 100 years, I wouldn't expect most members of the general public to have any idea who the Beach Boys were. I'm 22 years old, and the only song most people my age know (at least in the US) are Surfin USA and Kokomo. If you're a record snob, you probably have heard of Pet Sounds.

I do think that 100 years there will still people who study the music and culture of the 1960s, and the Beach Boys will have a part in that, even if it isn't a large part. I think the biggest influence the group could have would be the subconcious type, that they influenced the musicians around them to develop vocal harmonies and Brian's production style, who in turn would influence some later groups.

[The Heartical Don]

In 100 years, I wouldn't expect most members of the general public to have any idea who the Beach Boys were. I'm 22 years old, and the only song most people my age know (at least in the US) are Surfin USA and Kokomo. If you're a record snob, you probably have heard of Pet Sounds.

I do think that 100 years there will still people who study the music and culture of the 1960s, and the Beach Boys will have a part in that, even if it isn't a large part. I think the biggest influence the group could have would be the subconcious type, that they influenced the musicians around them to develop vocal harmonies and Brian's production style, who in turn would influence some later groups.

I don't agree. My disagreement is based on the factual observation that at BW's shows (in Europe, that is) people of 20 were dancing in the aisles alongside to people in their mid-50s, and everyone present sang along with the songs verbatim. The status of the Boys and Brian is way better than it ever was after 1968 or thereabouts, and their disks and box sets have not become the object of supersales. Their art is passed on from generation to generation.

Your other point, however, holds true. A special study will be the influence of BW on others. Many a review of the latest Springsteen disk, for instance, does mention a growing infatuation with Brian Wilson's techniques.

[phirnis]

Don, that particular series of Tatort by Hessische Rundfunk is always heavily accompanied with this kind of rock music, most notably Led Zeppelin, and I agree it was utilized in the most poignant fashion this time around (while it's usually just blasting from the Kommissar's car stereo to debatable effect).

[The Heartical Don]

Don, that particular series of Tatort by Hessische Rundfunk is always heavily accompanied with this kind of rock music, most notably Led Zeppelin, and I agree it was utilized in the most poignant fashion this time around (while it's usually just blasting from the Kommissar's car stereo to debatable effect).

  Well I never... how great to meet someone in the know in this particular place here! So I am not alone in my own universe, so to speak... as you say, yesterday it was used just right; it made me hearken back to my very early teens, when this music had some weird kind of mystic/erotic attraction for me - and it fitted the plot nicely. Your English is very good (in case you are German), by the way.

In my youth I watched a lot of 'nachsynchronisierte' movies on German TV, with John Wayne and so on: 'komm, Du Aschgeige, ziehe deine Kanone und wir machen uns auf den Weg nach Laramie!' (that kind of stuff).

[Cam Mott]

I agree with Luther; well said.

[KokoMoses]

I think the Boys themselves will be remembered for Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, and Brian will be remembered as one of the greatest pop composers of the 20th century, along with those you mentioned like Dylan and the Beatles. 

I also think that Brian's acclaim will overshadow that of the Boys, just because I believe that time will be more kind to composers than to performers.  People will be performing the songs of the greats until the end of time, thus keeping their names in high regard.

The Beach Boys were ALL composers!!!!!

some were also consistent performers

History will hopefully rectify this misgiving.... but I doubt it

[the captain]

They were all composers, but somehow I don't think history will favor those other than Brian (and to a lesser extent, Mike) for that. Sorry, Al...