Their place in history

[Chris Brown]

They were all composers, but somehow I don't think history will favor those other than Brian (and to a lesser extent, Mike) for that. Sorry, Al...

Exactly.  The only one who had anything approaching Brian's compositional talent was Dennis, and its wonderful that his work is starting to be more recognized.  But his body of work is much smaller than Brian's, and doesn't contain all time classics like Pet Sounds, "Good Vibrations," etc.  Had Denny gone on to compose more great albums (and had been more appreciated from the start), maybe he would be recognized along with Brian, but sadly I doubt that will be the case.

[KokoMoses]

I dunno, see it's hard for me to agree with the "Brian is the only guy with great songwriting talent in the universe" theory when my favorite Beach Boys album is Holland. In terms of momentum, it was certainly Brian. He was obviously the guy who put the Beach Boys on the map, but after he backed away, things continued to get interesting and the other guys took up the reins. No big deal, in my book. They were still the Beach Boys and they continued to create fantastic music up until around 1980, with some ass-kicking moments afterward..... I don't think it will ever be generally accepted just how important all the BBs voices/talents  (and personalities) were toward making them so beloved and important.... And I find this sad.

[the captain]

I dunno, see it's hard for me to agree with the "Brian is the only guy with great songwriting talent in the universe" theory

Luckily, I don't think anyone here was backing such a theory. I love a lot of the other guys' songs, but you have to admit, if you're going to rank each of the guys' compositions on a 1-10 scale, Brian's list is both far, far longer, but with a lot more really good songs. Carl has some great songs, but he barely has any songs. Al's songs are fun. People like Dennis. Mike obviously co-wrote a lot of great songs. But in both quantity and quality, it's not a Brian-cult thing to say straight-faced that it's not really close.

[KokoMoses]

....... and I would have to humbly agree with you

my case would not stand up in court, but I can still argue at the walls!! ;p

[the captain]

It's interesting to consider whether nuances such as "Carl didn't write many songs, but some of them were truly wonderful and timed to help prop up an arguably leaderless band" will last through the ages. Chances are not much of anyone will care in 100 years. But hey, who knows...

[KokoMoses]

Absolutely!!!

I think the main trouble is that the Beach Boys are just such a complicated entity.  It takes an amount of effort almost to the point of being investigative journalism, in order to, say, write a thorough and unbiased article about them. My longing for the Beach Boys to be regarded as a wonderous collective of multi-talents really is just a pipe dream.... Of course, no one on this board believes in the "Brian and a bunch of no-talent leeches" train of thought. It just that, if you were a non-fan hired to write the Beach Boys entry in, say, All-Music Guide, you'd probably have all your base opinions/point of view already set in stone long before you even got to Holland or even Sunflower.... So, it's really hard to imagine the "authors of history" making the necessary effort. You pretty much HAVE to be an obsessive to ever hope to get your head around The Beach Boys....

With the Beatles, it's easy. They came, recorded a string of great albums, changed the world in less than a decade, and got the hell out of there.....

[the captain]

I think most any band COULD be similarly interesting to devotees/cult members/fans if they cared to investigate. A lot of people whose musical taste I respect greatly strongly disagree with me about the BBs being worth the effort, for example. But if you wanted to get into it, you could get into anyone. As my favorite dead guy sang, "nothing really matters, anyone can see..."

[Jon Stebbins]

 I'd say its fairly obvious Dennis Wilson has proven that his material has staying power, Brian Wilson or no Brian Wilson. Pacific Ocean Blue did pretty damn good for a BB's solo product in 1977, reviewed well, sold decently...did it disappear into history because it wasn't Brian or because it produced no hit singles? Did over thirty years of passed time show it had no real importance in the big picture? Well...as Luther said with such sincerity..."People like Dennis". Yeah. In 2008 Pacific Ocean Blue - Legacy Edition sold well over 100,000 units(as of last December). It charted at #16 in the UK where it didn't chart at all in '77. In 2008 it also hit # 8 on the Billboard catalog chart in the U.S. It was also #8 in internet sales on Billboard U.S. It was the Rolling Stone magazine Reissue of the Year, it was the Mojo magazine Reissue of the Year, it was the Uncut magazine Reissue of the Year. It was without a doubt one of the best reviewed releases in all of the music business in 2008, in fact numerous publications called it THE best reviewed release of 2008....and it has sold very well without any Brian Wilson songs or vocals in its arsenal...and it continues to sell well enough that more DW releases will certainly be in the offing. You think Al, or Bruce, or Mike, or even Carl could have done that in 2008? Brian easily has the most historical importance and staying power of any Beach Boy...but to think there is any question about which Beach Boy is number two as an artist is to ignore the facts.

[the captain]

To be clear, I really was being sincere: people like Dennis. Don't let my general ambivalence for Dennis' music fool you. I know that it's just my own unimportant personal preference.

[donald]

I think pop music from the mid to later 20th century will be mentioned as a footnote,,,maybe a paragraph...in the history books of pop culture...and they will be mentioned together...."musicial entertainers  such as the Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys had a significant influence on the youth culture of their day"........etc.

something like the way we regard Stephen Foster or Paul Whiteman.........

When the people who experienced it are gone, only those who care to rediscover it will actually appreciate in a way similar to us...and at that it will be once removed......they will not have lived it...

Stephen Foster anyone?

[KokoMoses]

Very well put, Jon!

Dennis has never been number 2 in the Beach Boys for me. He's been an amazing individual artist who was lucky enough to be be able to call The Beach Boys home (yes, for better or worse)... And who just got better and better and would have continued so if he'd lived. Dennis, in my opinion is/was on a different level than The Beach Boys. His contributions to BBs music created an opportunity for them to be far more relevent and 'hip" and with it then I think they had any clue about whatsoever .... But the public wasn't having it. I get asked all the time by people who I'm introducing the the BBs 'Why didn't they release Forever as a single"? And they're amazed when I tell them, they did, and it didn't even chart.... Happily things have turned around. Someday Dennis might be regarded as Dennis Wilson, rather than "Dennis Wilson" of the Beach Boys!!!

[mikeyj]

Someday Dennis might be regarded as Dennis Wilson, rather than "Dennis Wilson" of the Beach Boys!!!

Well I think that's a pretty hard tag to break. After all, the bulk of his career was The Beach Boys, heck even Brian is regularly tagged as "the former Beach Boy".. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though. However, I do think Dennis has gained a lot more attention from the recent POB/Bambu release and hopefully there is more Dennis stuff released soon, particularly his unreleased Beach Boys compositions plus the Sound of Free single. It's a crime that that single isn't widely available.

[The Shift]

I think the amazing thing about Dennis's music is that it was so different in style to what the Beach Boys did. Amazing really that his tracks fitted on Light Album so well.

Dennis made Dennis music whereas Brian made Beach Boys music. Brian (as someone pointed out on another thread) still makes Beach Boys music and is probably these days incapable of making anything other than Beach Boys music.

My god, what a band they'd've become if they'd become Dennis's band in the late ’70s instead of the touring juke box.

[Lady]

This post is not directed to anyone specifically, I’d just like to make a point as an advocate for Carl without it being misconstrued against Dennis, because, believe me, I love Dennis’ music.

But there are some facts about Carl’s musical history that need to be highlighted on his behalf:

1.  Although Carl is often cited as not being prolific, Carl wrote and co-wrote over 50 (fifty) songs, and some of them are considered timeless, such as "Feel Flows"  "Long Promised Road"  "Heaven"  "Our Sweet Love"  "Good Timin’"  "All This Is That" …plus all four of his contributions to the Like A Brother CD are outstanding.

2.  Carl co-wrote three songs with Dennis:  "Rainbows"  "River Song" and "It’s About Time"

3.  Carl’s voice is credited on over 80 Beach Boy songs, and Carl lent his voice to background vocals on approx. 80 non-Beach Boy songs.  In the 1970’s (and even throughout the 1980’s) there was rarely a year when Carl wasn’t lending his vocals to another artist's song.  When an artist like Elton John or Tom Petty wanted to add a great backing vocal to their song, they called Carl, and he complied on more than 30 non-Beach Boy albums!

4.  Carl released two solo albums with 15 original songs, written the way he wanted them to be, as he said…”rough around the edges and a bit funkier.”  He judiciously promoted those albums by touring…giving at least two dozen live performances and going on television shows like Dick Clark’s American Bandstand, Tom Snyder, Solid Gold…

5.  Carl produced music outside of the Beach Boys…Ricci Martin’s album, and Flame’s album, which is a critically acclaimed album.

6.  When Brian stepped back a little, Carl stepped up to the plate on albums such as Wild Honey (with Carl’s voice on nine of the album’s songs, it’s a strongly Carl album)… Friends… L.A. (Light Album) and Holland.  With the Holland album, Ricky Fataar said in an interview (I’m paraphrasing) that it was Carl, Blondie and Ricky in the studio all the time working on that album.  Carl is credited on the album sleeve as mostly produced by Carl Wilson.  With the “Surf’s Up” song, it was Carl who worked to get it on the album.  Around that time, he was also appointed “musical director” in recognition of his hard work.  It has also been stated that it was Carl who produced the majority of 20/20, Carl and the Passions—So Tough, Surf’s Up and Sunflower.

7.  In the early days, it was Carl who sat by Brian’s side and who Brian asked for advice.  When Carl was touring, Brian would call him and play songs over the telephone to get Carl’s advice.   

8.  It was Carl who recorded a duet with Olivia Newton John, and he performed “God Only Knows” with Marilyn McCoo on Solid Gold. 

9.  And, it was Carl who insisted the band practice and give the fans a good performance; even leaving the Boys in the 80’s in order to get his point across.  The bottom line is that Carl gave his all to keep The Beach Boys in tact and thriving. 

It’s difficult to compare Dennis with Carl because they are a dichotomy…two brothers from the same tree who branched out and used their talents differently. To some people, the answer is a photo finish, and it just depends on who is interpreting the picture.

One thing is for sure.  They both gave the world some wonderful music.

[Exapno Mapcase]

"8.  It was Carl who recorded a duet with Olivia Newton John, and he performed “God Only Knows” with Marilyn McCoo on Solid Gold.  "  And we've forgiven him by now.

Their legacy?  In Europe they'll be regarded as one of the most influential bands in rock/pop; in the US, it'll be like - sorry, no gut-wrenching guitar solos, so they suck ass OR the British bands were so much better - everyone back to my place to listen to Freddie and the Dreamers OR Christ, they couldn't sing as well as the Temptations - Motown was the sound of young America, you know (of course, not the sound of young Black America, mind you...).  They'll have cult status and be appreciated among those who really know and when you see some middle-aged shitbag singing karaoke Kiss, you'll thank God they're not with us.

[KokoMoses]

This post is not directed to anyone specifically, I’d just like to make a point as an advocate for Carl without it being misconstrued against Dennis, because, believe me, I love Dennis’ music.

But there are some facts about Carl’s musical history that need to be highlighted on his behalf:

1.  Although Carl is often cited as not being prolific, Carl wrote and co-wrote over 50 (fifty) songs, and some of them are considered timeless, such as "Feel Flows"  "Long Promised Road"  "Heaven"  "Our Sweet Love"  "Good Timin’"  "All This Is That" …plus all four of his contributions to the Like A Brother CD are outstanding.

2.  Carl co-wrote three songs with Dennis:  "Rainbows"  "River Song" and "It’s About Time"

3.  Carl’s voice is credited on over 80 Beach Boy songs, and Carl lent his voice to background vocals on approx. 80 non-Beach Boy songs.  In the 1970’s (and even throughout the 1980’s) there was rarely a year when Carl wasn’t lending his vocals to another artist's song.  When an artist like Elton John or Tom Petty wanted to add a great backing vocal to their song, they called Carl, and he complied on more than 30 non-Beach Boy albums!

4.  Carl released two solo albums with 15 original songs, written the way he wanted them to be, as he said…”rough around the edges and a bit funkier.”  He judiciously promoted those albums by touring…giving at least two dozen live performances and going on television shows like Dick Clark’s American Bandstand, Tom Snyder, Solid Gold…

5.  Carl produced music outside of the Beach Boys…Ricci Martin’s album, and Flame’s album, which is a critically acclaimed album.

6.  When Brian stepped back a little, Carl stepped up to the plate on albums such as Wild Honey (with Carl’s voice on nine of the album’s songs, it’s a strongly Carl album)… Friends… L.A. (Light Album) and Holland.  With the Holland album, Ricky Fataar said in an interview (I’m paraphrasing) that it was Carl, Blondie and Ricky in the studio all the time working on that album.  Carl is credited on the album sleeve as mostly produced by Carl Wilson.  With the “Surf’s Up” song, it was Carl who worked to get it on the album.  Around that time, he was also appointed “musical director” in recognition of his hard work.  It has also been stated that it was Carl who produced the majority of 20/20, Carl and the Passions—So Tough, Surf’s Up and Sunflower.

7.  In the early days, it was Carl who sat by Brian’s side and who Brian asked for advice.  When Carl was touring, Brian would call him and play songs over the telephone to get Carl’s advice.   

8.  It was Carl who recorded a duet with Olivia Newton John, and he performed “God Only Knows” with Marilyn McCoo on Solid Gold. 

9.  And, it was Carl who insisted the band practice and give the fans a good performance; even leaving the Boys in the 80’s in order to get his point across.  The bottom line is that Carl gave his all to keep The Beach Boys in tact and thriving. 

It’s difficult to compare Dennis with Carl because they are a dichotomy…two brothers from the same tree who branched out and used their talents differently. To some people, the answer is a photo finish, and it just depends on who is interpreting the picture.

One thing is for sure.  They both gave the world some wonderful music.

As I've said over and over: Carl has the greatest voice of all-time!

Perhaps because of this, it's easy to overlook all his other accomplishments!

I think it's beyond fair to claim that without Carl, The Beach Boys would have imploded quickly once Brian pulled back.

[Black Tiger]

I think pop music from the mid to later 20th century will be mentioned as a footnote,,,maybe a paragraph...in the history books of pop culture...and they will be mentioned together...."musicial entertainers  such as the Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys had a significant influence on the youth culture of their day"........etc.

something like the way we regard Stephen Foster or Paul Whiteman.........

I think this is almost certainly what will happen

Fats Domino and Patti Page were the two biggest-selling artists of the 1950s, each selling in excess of 100 million records, yet they are largely (and unfortunately) forgotten today. If Patti Page is mentioned by anyone at all it's for Doggie in the Window, which no one under the age of 60 has actually listened to, and which is always cited as typifying the type of "square" music the Beatles saved us from. 

Fats gets a little lip service for being one of the contenders for "first" rock record, but that's about it.

Bing Crosby sold about a half a billion records and is only remembered for his Christmas music

I can't imagine BW/BB getting even a full sentence in a history book

[donald]

I'm under 60 and had a copy of Doggie in the Window when I was a small child.    I seem to recall a video of that showing up somewhere, someplace .......on television.

I think the history books have been written already..essentially....and that songs about surfin will be mentioned in the same paragraphs of commentary on BeachBoys....with little mention of the songs current hardcore fans consider the pinnacle of Brian's art.

This stuff is like antique cars or anything else of pop culture.....they are of keen  interest to those who grew up with it but succeeding generations don't have the same attachement.  It isn't among their memories.

I can buy a very nice 1918 Ford for less than half of what I can buy a 57 Ford or 66 Mustang.  And I'm already detecting that young guys now would often rather have a tricked out import from the 80's or 90's than a mustang or chevelle.

Message:   Sell your nostalgic collectibles NOW before the buyers are all dead. 

[Alex]

I think pop music from the mid to later 20th century will be mentioned as a footnote,,,maybe a paragraph...in the history books of pop culture...and they will be mentioned together...."musicial entertainers  such as the Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys had a significant influence on the youth culture of their day"........etc.

something like the way we regard Stephen Foster or Paul Whiteman.........

I think this is almost certainly what will happen

Fats Domino and Patti Page were the two biggest-selling artists of the 1950s, each selling in excess of 100 million records, yet they are largely (and unfortunately) forgotten today. If Patti Page is mentioned by anyone at all it's for Doggie in the Window, which no one under the age of 60 has actually listened to, and which is always cited as typifying the type of "square" music the Beatles saved us from. 

Fats gets a little lip service for being one of the contenders for "first" rock record, but that's about it.

Bing Crosby sold about a half a billion records and is only remembered for his Christmas music

I can't imagine BW/BB getting even a full sentence in a history book

Fats Domino only getting a bit of lip service? Oh please! Fats Domino is one of the most influential musicians of the past 60 or so years! If Fats is only a footnote then why was there a Fats Domino tribute album released last years that featured covers by Neil Young, Tom Petty, John Lennon, Corinne Bailey Rae, BB King, Elton John, Paul McCartney, The Dirty Dozen Brass Band, Joss Stone, Buddy Guy, Dr. John, Lenny Kravitz, Bonnie Raitt, Art Neville, Robbie Robertson, Robert Plant, and Randy Newman, among others? How come Brian Wilson decided to cover Blueberry Hill for 15 Big Ones? Fats Domino is the man!

[donald]

Yeah.  Fats Dominoe and his evil spawn Chubby Checker!

[Black Tiger]

Fats Domino only getting a bit of lip service? Oh please! Fats Domino is one of the most influential musicians of the past 60 or so years! If Fats is only a footnote then why was there a Fats Domino tribute album released last years that featured covers by Neil Young, Tom Petty, John Lennon, Corinne Bailey Rae, BB King, Elton John, Paul McCartney, The Dirty Dozen Brass Band, Joss Stone, Buddy Guy, Dr. John, Lenny Kravitz, Bonnie Raitt, Art Neville, Robbie Robertson, Robert Plant, and Randy Newman, among others? How come Brian Wilson decided to cover Blueberry Hill for 15 Big Ones? Fats Domino is the man!

That only proves my point, 95% of the people on that list were children/teens when Fats was in his "prime." 15 Big Ones was almost 35 years ago. He may have influenced a lot of people from that generation, but probably none from the last 40 years. That's not a knock on Fats! It's just that he's largely unknown/forgotten/ignored by everyone under the age of 50. He sold 200 million records (or whatever) and now he's just a footnote in the history of pop music.

[the captain]

Being more than one generation ago doesn't reduce one's stature to "footnote." That people might cite artists influenced by Fats more than they cite Fats is not important: the influence remains. And for what it's worth, I'm 32 and well aware of Fats Domino and his music. Maybe I spend too much time reading the tiny type at the bottom of the page. Or maybe he's not a footnote.

[lance]

He is not a footnote, nor will the Beach Boys be a footnote. It's true that we on this board probably overrate them a bit, but they will be more than a footnote, if you ask me.

I don't think anybody is arguing that the Beach Boys will hit number one on the charts in sixty years.

I mean, most young people don't listen to Beethoven, that doesn't mean Beethoven's a footnote.

[Alex]

Fats Domino only getting a bit of lip service? Oh please! Fats Domino is one of the most influential musicians of the past 60 or so years! If Fats is only a footnote then why was there a Fats Domino tribute album released last years that featured covers by Neil Young, Tom Petty, John Lennon, Corinne Bailey Rae, BB King, Elton John, Paul McCartney, The Dirty Dozen Brass Band, Joss Stone, Buddy Guy, Dr. John, Lenny Kravitz, Bonnie Raitt, Art Neville, Robbie Robertson, Robert Plant, and Randy Newman, among others? How come Brian Wilson decided to cover Blueberry Hill for 15 Big Ones? Fats Domino is the man!

That only proves my point, 95% of the people on that list were children/teens when Fats was in his "prime." 15 Big Ones was almost 35 years ago. He may have influenced a lot of people from that generation, but probably none from the last 40 years. That's not a knock on Fats! It's just that he's largely unknown/forgotten/ignored by everyone under the age of 50. He sold 200 million records (or whatever) and now he's just a footnote in the history of pop music.

I'm 23 and I like Fats! There are probably more people than you think who know who he is.

[Black Tiger]

Let me put it this way, when was the last time you heard a Fats song on the radio? Any time this decade? What about last decade? People may be "aware" of him as a name and a few young people may discover him, but otherwise he's largely ignored.
I'll bring up Bing Crosby again - he's the third biggest selling artist of all time after Elvis and the Beatles. How many people out of 100 can name a single song of his, excluding Christmas music? I'd guess no more than maybe 5-10, and that of those maybe 1-2 would be under the age of 65. I'm not trying to denigrate Bing or Fats or Patti Page, because they were all great artists and I love all three of them. Perhaps the rise of XM radio will help reverse the trend a little, I do hope so.