Heroes chorus

[MBE]

Were the final lyrics of the Heroes and Villians chorus recorded during Smile or was it just done as the Bicycle Rider intro?

[Mahalo]

I know I'm just an associate, but could you please elaborate?

[Jason]

Were the final lyrics of the Heroes and Villians chorus recorded during Smile or was it just done as the Bicycle Rider intro?

Well, the backing track was recorded during Smile, but during the Smiley Smile sessions it was overdubbed with the Baldwin and the vocals were added.

[MBE]

I know the final lead was done for Smiley, I was just curious if the "Heroes and Villians just see what you've done" chorus originated with Smile or Smiley. In other words was that specific line ever attempted before the Smiley sessions? I know the melody was there on the Do You Dig Worms intro.

[Bicyclerider]

I believe the tape box containing the Heroes chorus WITH vocals (as in the single vocals) is dated Feb 27th (and the tape box is marked "Side Two").  Whether that date refers just to when the track was recorded and the vocals were added to the tape later, or the vocals were done around that time as well is unknown.  Brian may have done vocals (for the two parted Heroes single, Part 2) and then erased them and overdubbed vocals and Baldwin during the Smiley sessions.

[Roger Ryan]

So, the "Heroes" chorus (same as the "Worms" chorus?) was recorded at the end of February, '67? Of course, the "Cantina" mix which would have been "Side One" doesn't feature the chorus at all. Personally, I always thought "Heroes" played better without the "Worms" chorus interpolated.

I can imagine that Parks would have been miffed to have "Bicycle Rider, see what you've done" changed to "Heroes & Villains, see what you've done" since the former is clearly a playful allusion to the blues standard "See See Rider" and the latter...well the latter doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the way it blames two opposites for the damage done. I'm thinking that Brian simply replaced "Bicycle Rider..." with "Heroes & Villains..." when he decided to interpolate the "Worms" chorus into H & V.

[MBE]

Agree that the bicycle pun is better, buit Heroes just doesn't seem complete without the chorus.

[Roger Ryan]

Agree that the bicycle pun is better, buit Heroes just doesn't seem complete without the chorus.

On my personal mix I edit in the various "Heroes..." chants to replace the "Bicycle Rider" chorus so the idea of a chorus is retained without having to borrow from "Worms". This helps the track feel more "complete" and improves the momentum of the song a bit more.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I found it interesting that at the session for the slower "dum dum dum" version of the Heroes chant the engineer slates the song as "version 4, part 2, take two."  I don't know exactly how to interpret this phrasing, but I find it very interesting that they were calling these different Heroes chants "versions."  It appears that early in the process of making Heroes Part 2 that the Bicycle rider might have been one of many "versions" of the chant.  The fact that what became the chorus on the 45 version was the bicycle rider chant I take as a sign that by February Do You Dig Worms was considered dead or unreleasable, so the section was put to new use for the single or the single B side.

After obsessing over the evidence I am still not totally sure that there was going to be a Heroes part 2 flip side.  I would love it someone could shine a light on the issue.  Just slating the takes and sessions as "part 2" doesn't convince me.  Look at, for instance, the Da Da sessions.  The opening part was slated as "part 1" and the second part was called "part 2."  Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was slated as "The Elements Part 1."  Also, what became the Heroes chorus was slated as "part 2" and actually is the second part of the 45 release.  All these different chants could have been tried out as the possible chorus.  BUT, on the other hand, the first session for the Bicycle Rider revamp appears to have been on January 5th, long before the mix down of the Cantina version on March 2nd (is that date right?) which doesn't use the Bicycle Rider revamp chorus.  That tells me that maybe there really was a Part 2.  So I am conflicted.

Oh, and according to Van Dyke, the bicycle rider was also a reference to the angel on the bicycle on the back of Bicycle playing cards (see my profile picture).  I thought that was pretty cool.

[buddhahat]

After obsessing over the evidence I am still not totally sure that there was going to be a Heroes part 2 flip side. 

I think at some point Brian must have been toying with an a/b side Heroes. Doesn't Vosse state this in the 69 article? Why would he mention it if it had never been a possibility? Seems an unlikely mistake to make.

Aren't there also places in the sessions where an engineer says things like "tag to part 1" which would imply that these parts were more than just sections of a song a la Dada?

[Bicyclerider]

So, the "Heroes" chorus (same as the "Worms" chorus?) was recorded at the end of February, '67? Of course, the "Cantina" mix which would have been "Side One" doesn't feature the chorus at all. Personally, I always thought "Heroes" played better without the "Worms" chorus interpolated.

The Worms Bicycle Rider chorus is in a different key (and is a different recording, obviously) than the Heroes chorus.  That's probably why Brian rerecorded it - when he did the overdubs in January to interpolate the Worms chorus into Heroes, the transition just didn't work.  Changing the key, it did work.  when the lyrics were changed is unknown - as I said, it's possible that the Bicycle Rider lyrics were still intact in February and when the vocals were redone in June they were changed.  I think it's interesting that Carl used the Bicycle Rider lyrics when the Beach Boys played Heroes in concert from 1970-71 on.

The 2 sided single - Chuck Britz remembered a two sided single, and Vosse in a 1969 interview was quite definite in recalling Heroes was going to be an Aside and a Bside.  This is long before the Smile waters were contaminated by Dom's theories (not that his theories were bad, it just became more difficult to tell if Smile participant recollections were influenced by Dom interviewing them with a bias towards what he thought Smile "should" be).  The Part 2 designation argument isn't that strong, as pointed out, because many songs had Part 2's and Part 3's - but the session sheets for Heroes "Part 2" were marked as Heroes Part 2 AND there was a different Capitol track # assigned to Heroes Part 2 vs. Part 1. Again, as pointed out, the idea of a "tag to Part 1" and "intro to Part 2" makes it seem more likely that there was a two sided single planned.  But Brian must have vacillated on whether to do a two sided single or not, because we don't have any direct quotes from him during the SMile period that he did plan on doing a two sided single, and in fact right after he mixed down cantina he gave an interview and said he didn't know what he was going to put on the Bside of the single.  And then immediately went back to work on Heroes Part 2 sections.

Part 2 sessions included:  Jan 5 - Worms chorus vocal and instrumental (fuzz bass) overdubs
Feb 15 - Prelude to fade (country western clip clop theme) and Bicycle Rider tack piano theme
Feb 27 - single chorus
Feb 28 - "Fade to Heroes" - rerecord of the fade with Carl live vocals
March1/2 - intro Part 2

In addition there's vocal sessions that are undated but the talkback indicates they are for Part 2 - "How I Love My Girl" is slated as "Part 2, revised version" and some of the other vocal "dit dit dit Heroes and Villains" sections were probably Part 2 sessions as well.

And finally we have reports of five and six minute versions of Heroes in the press from March 67 to the Mike interview in July 67, which was either an extended mix OR more likely the full version that would have been broken up into two parts on the single.

I was always one of the most sceptical when it came to the 2 sided single, but I'm finally given in to the 2 sided single as a reality.  If only we could get that Heroes acetate/tape from Mike, assuming he still has it!

[The Shift]

.... according to Van Dyke, the bicycle rider was also a reference to the angel on the bicycle on the back of Bicycle playing cards (see my profile picture).  I thought that was pretty cool.

Was this lyric written while the album was still called Dumb Angel? Just a thought...

[The Song Of The Grange]

Once again, great info Bicyclerider.  I would love to know what some of your sources are so I could check them out.

I think I have been convinced, here and now, that yes there was a H&V side 2.  The evidence seems to be too strong to think otherwise. 

Now I wonder, as maybe surely have before me, if the Heroes Part 2 was planned to go on the Smile LP, or was it a) just a B-side, or b) The Smile album was already dead as we know it so there was no album to put it on in the first place.

I think there may have been an in between time in the January through May period where there may have been a Smile plan B album which would have sanitized the album of its more wild tracks (Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Worms etc) but still would have been released as Smile.  In this case perhaps Heroes Part 2 would have been on the LP, along with the latest version of Wonderful, the new Vegetables "single" etc.

[Bicyclerider]

Song - no secret sources, just the info that's out there on session sheets (AndrewDoe's website, Alan Boyd postings, Brad Elliott postings, session information on the old Smileshop site), Dom's Look Listen Vibrate Smile clippings, Vosse's Fusion interview (a Boston music magazine - I tried to buy a copy on ebay, lost the bidding, and emailed the winner who scanned the Vosse article for me), Chuck's interview by Dom.  And of course listening to the sessions on "unofficial" releases.

since Heroes was the first song Brian and Van Dyke wrote together, yes, I would think it was still called Dumb Angel at that time.

[LostArt]

since Heroes was the first song Brian and Van Dyke wrote together, yes, I would think it was still called Dumb Angel at that time.

Yeah, but that Bicycle Rider lyric was written for Worms.  When was Worms written?

[The Song Of The Grange]

I believe that the first tracking session for Do You Like Worms was  October 18th 1966. An early vocal session took place on October 21st.