what is it about Frère Jacques?

[Boiled Egg]

paperback writer - the beatles - 1966 - featured a snippet of 'frère jacques'.

surf's up - the beach boys - 1966 - featured a snippet of 'frère jacques'.

additions and speculations invited.

[endofposts]

It used to be something people were raised on, both at school and at home.  I don't think it's any deeper than that.

[Shane]

Okay, so call me ignorant, but I never picked up on the reference, both in terms of melody and the English translation of the lyrics:

Are you sleeping,
Are you sleeping,
Brother John?
Brother John?
Morning bells are ringing,
Morning bells are ringing.
Ding, dang, dong.
Ding, dang, dong.

[Aegir]

I know the "are you sleeping, Brother John" line, but it's in there musically, too? Didn't notice. Where is it?

[lance]

I know the "are you sleeping, Brother John" line, but it's in there musically, too? Didn't notice. Where is it?

The melody is basically the same, note-wise(just on that line), though the rhythm is decidedly different.

[Chris Brown]

I know the "are you sleeping, Brother John" line, but it's in there musically, too? Didn't notice. Where is it?

The melody is basically the same, note-wise(just on that line), though the rhythm is decidedly different.

Yes the melody is exactly the same on those lines, just sung slower than in Frere Jacques. 

I actually always thought that those lines, in addition to being a Frere Jacques reference, were Van Dyke's way of calling out John Lennon...saying "hey, top this!"  I know it sounds completely crazy, just a random thought I had (not to change the topic too much).

[Bicyclerider]

For the Beatles it was a joke, using it in the backing vocals (much as they'd use "tit - tit - tit" in Girl before).

For Brian and Van Dyke it was used to evoke childhood, a theme in Surf's Up and much of smile.

[Surfer Joe]

...I know it sounds completely crazy, just a random thought I had

Doesn't sound crazy at all to me.  Who thinks the Beach Boys weren't Beatle-conscious in late 1966? And who thinks the name "John" didn't bring John Lennon to mind back then?

Anyway, I've heard far crazier ideas given credence in connection with that album/project.

[The Shift]

I'd thought it might be a reference to Brother John the artist who lives at Ragged Point on the Big Sur coast...

But now you've pointed out the Frere Jacque link, that makes sense and maybe doesn't have to be a reference to anything - a bit like the "Doe-ray-me-far-sew-la-tea-doe" line in I Can Hear Music, or Brian singing Row Row Row The Boat in concert.

[Chris Brown]

...I know it sounds completely crazy, just a random thought I had

Doesn't sound crazy at all to me.  Who thinks the Beach Boys weren't Beatle-conscious in late 1966? And who thinks the name "John" didn't bring John Lennon to mind back then?

Anyway, I've heard far crazier ideas given credence in connection with that album/project.

Glad its not just me!  Brian and Van Dyke were certainly Beatle-conscious at that time, and Van Dyke was in many ways Brian's "secret weapon" against John's abstract lyrical skills.  And Brian certainly wasn't above calling out his competition in song ("Four Seasons don't you know that surfers rule!").

It's definitely a stretch, and the Frere Jaques/childhood reference seems more likely in the context of the song and Smile as a whole.  Just wanted to throw it out there.

[John]

For the Beatles it was a joke, using it in the backing vocals (much as they'd use "tit - tit - tit" in Girl before).

Or more Britrock "LSD sends us back to childhood / toytown" stuff.

[Dancing Bear]

Another theory: "Jack" and "Jake" didn't fit the tune, but "John" did.

[Surfer Joe]

Glad its not just me! 

You know, I was called crazy more than once for pointing out the Stephen Foster/"Oh! Susanna" quote in "That's Not Me", one of the first things that really struck me on Pet Sounds- it hit me immediately, on first listen, and added great emotional impact and depth to the song- and then I think Murry Wilson, of all people, confirmed it in a contemporary interview (can't remember where).

I called a good friend crazy for suggesting that John is burning up the girl's furniture in "Norwegian Wood", and got him to agree that he was wrong, before Paul McCartney confirmed that he was absolutely right in the L.A. Times.

The first time I heard the Gershwin horn I thought it was a shatteringly ingenious reference to "Rhapsody In Blue"- and the above-mentioned friend (and others) didn't.  Then it was referred to as the "Gershwin Horn"....so at least someone else thought so.

Had another good one in mind, but forgot it.

[Chris Brown]

Wow I hadn't heard that explanation of "Norwegian Wood" before...definitely not something I would have thought of, although looking at the lyrics now it makes sense!

[Mark A. Moore]

"Skateboarding" (Parts 1 & 2) -- Smokin' Wrecking Crew instrumental produced by Jan Berry in 1964 . . . originally titled "Brother Surfer."

M.

[Surfer Joe]

Wow I hadn't heard that explanation of "Norwegian Wood" before...definitely not something I would have thought of, although looking at the lyrics now it makes sense!

It was finally explained somewhere- maybe in A Hard Day's Write (lousy title, great book) that Norwegian pine was really trendy at the time. So the mention of it, and John feeding her furniture into the fire at the end when she's gone, adds up to a sardonic comment and a funny ending. I will always wish that John's lyrics had continued down this path, and the way he wrote on the White Album, but that's another post for another board.

[Aegir]

Of course he's burning her furniture! What else could "so I lit a fire" mean?

And where's the Oh Susanna in That's Not Me?

[LostArt]

Of course he's burning her furniture! What else could "so I lit a fire" mean?

And where's the Oh Susanna in That's Not Me?

Yeah, after I read that the first thing I did was listen to That's Not Me, because I had never heard anything like Oh, Suzanna in there.  The only thing remotely similar to my ears is the guitar line after the lyrics, "I once had a dream, so I packed up and split for the city...".  It's the same melody (for a few notes) as "I come from Alabama with".  It's a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

[Roger Ryan]

Wow I hadn't heard that explanation of "Norwegian Wood" before...definitely not something I would have thought of, although looking at the lyrics now it makes sense!

It was finally explained somewhere- maybe in A Hard Day's Write (lousy title, great book) that Norwegian pine was really trendy at the time. So the mention of it, and John feeding her furniture into the fire at the end when she's gone, adds up to a sardonic comment and a funny ending. I will always wish that John's lyrics had continued down this path, and the way he wrote on the White Album, but that's another post for another board.

And, of course, the title itself is a play on the phrase "Knowing she would". Lennon had a knack for writing lyrics that could be taken as both humorous and serious at the same time.

[John]

Paul says it was his idea for the rejected "hero" of the song set the place afire.

[Surfer Joe]

All I can say on "That's Not Me" is that it hit my ears the first time I ever heard the song in 1982, and it struck me as so bittersweet that it drew me further into the album.  Over the years I mentioned it a few times to people who thought it was more than a stretch, until I questioned it myself.  Then I saw where Murry had mentioned it in a 1966 interview as an example of his son's depth...wish I could find that. I'm starting to question all my memories these days.

[Fun Is In]

I always thought the Frere Jaques in Paperback Writer was a silly reference to Lennon's books of the time....even though they originally came out in hard cover.
But that's just me, er, Not Me.