Bruce interview posted here.

[mikeyj]

I think Mike's problem with the lyrics wasn't only that he didn't understand them. More importantly to Mike (I think) is that he felt THE FANS wouldn't understand or ACCEPT them.

Good point Sheriff, but I still say he should've gone along with it. I mean I wasn't around at the time (WAY to young) but I really don't think that they would've been too out of place would they?

The point about "Surf's Up" with boy-meets-girl lyrics....I think I understand the "Surf's Up" lyrics, and, to some extent, I can enjoy/appreciate them. But I don't necessarily love them. I admit that there have been times I have been listening to that gorgeous backing track and Carl's and Brian's tender vocal(s), and I have wondered how the song would feel with different, more mainstream lyrics. You know, to be touched the way "Don't Worry, Baby" or "Kiss Me, Baby" or "Caroline, No" can get to you. Again, I appreciate "Surf's Up" as a true work of art, I'm not knocking it, it's great, and I hope my comments are interpreted differently....

I understand your feelings Sheriff, and of course it's all totally a personal thing, but I think that Surf's Up's lyrics are just perfect the way they are. I mean just as with the actual music, lyrics can be interpreted differently. And for me personally I can't see the song having more 'commercial' lyrics, because generally I don't think it is a commercial-type song. I mean who knows what it would've sounded like and maybe I would like it better if I was able to hear it with more commercial lyrics, but I just think the words compliment the music beautifully

[the captain]

Time for a contest, songwriters! Write your best "commercial" lyrics for Surf's Up, and if you've got the ability, heck, record it to the instrumental track. (Is there a BWPS instrumental of that one? I know there's the first part instrumentally on the GV box.) A good time will be had by all.

[Dancing Bear]

I mean how would Mike like it if Brian said to him in later years "Student Demonstration Time" is a load of crap and it's just a rewrite, stop wasting your time! Or whatever song it was, can you imagine Brian putting Mike down for something he created? The fact was that he rarely (if at all) objected to Mike's contributions.

Surf's Up twofer booklet, about SDT:

"It was a little bit too intense. It didn't hit the spot for me. It wasn't too vocally intense but lyrically it was a bit too far out to me."
(Brian Wilson)


I think Mike had the right to voice his opinion about the band's direction, as much as Carl during the 15 Big Ones sessions. What were they offering instead in '66 or '76? Almost everyone here secretly wishes Carl and Dennis had "fired" Brian and produced a proper follow-up to Holland. I don't see the difference.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good conversation, mikeyj. And, again, I can't defend Mike on SMiLE. Hey, Luther, your agreeing with me is playing games with my head. I don't know whether to be flattered - or re-think my opinions!

A quick story....Back in the mid-1970's there was this multi vinyl/cassette/8-track set called (I think) Superstars Of The 70's. It really was quite good, and diverse. Anyway, "Surf's Up" was on it. At that time I was not a Beach Boys' fan, being familiar only with the surf & turf songs. So I figure "Surf's Up" is one of them. Well, was I in for a shock when my buddy puts the 8-track in, and out comes "A diamond necklace played the pawn...." I remember thinking, "What the hell is this?"

[mikeyj]

Mike himself has said he liked--or appreciated, I should say--those lyrics. But the man was in pop music, and he was trying to sell pop or rock 'n' roll records. Yes, the scene was changing and people were beginning to take it more seriously than they had been in previous years (Too seriously, if you ask me...most of that self-important psychedelic trash of the era can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. But I digress...), but he was coming from the perspective of a guy who had co-written a lot of hit songs and was still out performing rock 'n' roll sets to kids--kids who loved "I Get Around." There's nothing wrong with that music. Mike didn't mean he didn't understand the lyrics and so they were bad; he meant he didn't understand why you'd release those lyrics when they weren't what people (the people he thought should relate to the Beach Boys) would want to hear.

Point taken Luther. And sure, I understand where Mike was coming from. But let me just say this Luther. If you were in a band (and I know you are in a band) where one guy had basically been responsible largely for your success (say 80% of it was because of him) and you had yet to have a real failure, would you question him and say "this is garbage, our fans won't like this"... well I'm sorry (back to Mike+Brian) to tell Mike but despite what he claims when he says in the Endless Harmony documentary (and I'm para-phrasing) "I think the reason why people like the Beach Boys is because of the positivity - and that was ME!! Brian was melancholy, I was Mr. Positive thinker." and he always goes on about how he is so commercially minded and that part may be true, BUT Brian knew what would sell just as much (if not more) than Mike - at least before hand. And he's saying Brian's melancholy etc.. well how about "Fun, Fun, Fun", "I Get Around", "Surfin' USA", "Surfin' Safari", "Catch A Wave", "California Girls", "Dance, Dance, Dance".. ummm as far as I know, Brian wrote the music in those songs and then Mike wrote lyrics to them, but that music is what I'm sure Mike would deem 'positive sounding music'... Point being, is that I just think that Mike can be so insensitive sometimes (like I said before) and so short sighted.. I mean just because he doesn't like something - um, Mike the whole world doesn't revolve around you - doesn't mean that he has to object to it. I mean like I said (and keep saying) just let Brian have his little moment and if it's a failure (since they hadn't had a failure yet) then question his direction.

I just think it's sad, because it seems like so many people questioned Brian on everything he did and as we all know he was/is a pretty sensitive guy. I remember a quote from Marilyn and I thought it was a pretty good one it was something like "a record company who questions Brian should be questioned itself". While it might not be entirely true, I think that if everyone had supported Brian (until they had a massive failure) then who knows where they could've gone. I mean even Bruce (who apparently liked Smile, Pet Sounds etc..) said about Good Vibrations "I was saying to the guys its either going to be the biggest hit of our career or the careers over" or something like that.. gee thanks for the confidence Bruce.. my point being maybe they should've just believed in Brian as they had in the past to get them to where they were.

Oh, and I totally agree that there isn't anything wrong with I Get Around and all of those songs. Some of the songs in that era are my favourites (in fact I just love all - meaning most - of the 60's and early 70's stuff)

[mikeyj]

I mean how would Mike like it if Brian said to him in later years "Student Demonstration Time" is a load of crap and it's just a rewrite, stop wasting your time! Or whatever song it was, can you imagine Brian putting Mike down for something he created? The fact was that he rarely (if at all) objected to Mike's contributions.

Surf's Up twofer booklet, about SDT:

"It was a little bit too intense. It didn't hit the spot for me. It wasn't too vocally intense but lyrically it was a bit too far out to me."
(Brian Wilson)

Haha I knew someone was going to mention that quote from Brian. Well I think that's a bit different. It's easy to look back with hindsight and say "gee, maybe that wasn't the best decision/song" or whatever.. but Brian never actually objected to it, saying to Mike "we shouldn't release this, this is garbage" he just let Mike have is little moment. I mean if SMiLE had come out and it had either been a failure or a big success I honestly wouldn't care if Mike had said later down the track "SMiLE wasn't my favourite album, the songs just weren't very strong especially the lyrics", then that's cool. That's his opinion and he can have it (it's a free country after all - supposedly)

[the captain]

mikeyj, it's hard for me to argue because I honestly agree with you, basically. But I'm trying to be really open and fair about the debates, too. And I think I really do see Mike's (or Bruce's--remember, he was once the topic of this thread...another one luther helped to derail!) points at times. It's less a matter of right and wrong than it is a matter of being what you want to be. And the fact is, from somewhere in the mid/late 60s on, the band members' heads and hearts weren't in the same place. Brian-fans blame Mike. Mike-fans (are there those? I kid, I kid) blame Brian. There is a place for it all, but we get too hung up on our own personal preferences as if they were somehow the right ones.

So as to blaming Mike for going against Brian's wishes, remember, younger people like you and I (meaning who weren't around at the time) are hearing this--all of it, the music and the story--through different lenses that have been put in front of our eyes. We hear the Brian-Leaf publicity machine, we hear the Beach Boys-as-Business machine, and we hear interviews and clips that were compiled and edited for specific purposes. It's hard to take things as fact based on those circumstances, and so I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[mikeyj]

mikeyj, it's hard for me to argue because I honestly agree with you, basically. But I'm trying to be really open and fair about the debates, too. And I think I really do see Mike's (or Bruce's--remember, he was once the topic of this thread...another one luther helped to derail!) points at times. It's less a matter of right and wrong than it is a matter of being what you want to be. And the fact is, from somewhere in the mid/late 60s on, the band members' heads and hearts weren't in the same place. Brian-fans blame Mike. Mike-fans (are there those? I kid, I kid) blame Brian. There is a place for it all, but we get too hung up on our own personal preferences as if they were somehow the right ones.

So as to blaming Mike for going against Brian's wishes, remember, younger people like you and I (meaning who weren't around at the time) are hearing this--all of it, the music and the story--through different lenses that have been put in front of our eyes. We hear the Brian-Leaf publicity machine, we hear the Beach Boys-as-Business machine, and we hear interviews and clips that were compiled and edited for specific purposes. It's hard to take things as fact based on those circumstances, and so I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Couldn't agree more Luther. And I know, everyone's opinion is to some degree based on "personal preferences as if they were somehow the right ones." But hey, all this debating is all in the name of fun, right?

[Chris Brown]

Oh how I've missed THE THREAD!

No seriously though, I agree with mikey 100%. 

I just don't understand telling the guy that just handed you the biggest hit of your career that what he's doing now isn't "appropriate for the fans."  Like you said, if Smile had come out and flopped (doubtful but for sake of argument), then I could understand Mike saying "gee Brian, maybe we shouldn't have gone so far."  But even if he didn't care for the lyrics, or thought they would alienate the fans, wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?  He hadn't steered them wrong before, so the way I see it, you don't question him until he does.

[the captain]

But you, as co-writer of the aforementioned "biggest hit of your career" and lead singer on those successful tours, haven't steered the band wrong, either, have you? And so maybe the quitter-baby at home shouldn't complain until you do something wrong.

Again, I am so far in the Brian camp it's ridiculous, but even so ... be realistic from Mike's point of view, people. Was he supposed to know, in 1966/67, that Brian was Music-Jesus, the Rain Man of Pop who doesn't leave his bed and every time he farts it's magic? No. What he would have likely seen was his cousin starting to really f*** everything up by taking too many drugs, hanging out with leeches and abandoning music that had so far done nothing but work.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

[Chris Brown]

But you, as co-writer of the aforementioned "biggest hit of your career" and lead singer on those successful tours, haven't steered the band wrong, either, have you? And so maybe the quitter-baby at home shouldn't complain until you do something wrong.

Again, I am so far in the Brian camp it's ridiculous, but even so ... be realistic from Mike's point of view, people. Was he supposed to know, in 1966/67, that Brian was Music-Jesus, the Rain Man of Pop who doesn't leave his bed and every time he farts it's magic? No. What he would have likely seen was his cousin starting to really foda everything up by taking too many drugs, hanging out with leeches and abandoning music that had so far done nothing but work.

Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight, and you're right, there was no way of knowing how Smile would have turned out.  But like I said, Brian hadn't made a wrong move yet, and especially after Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, I think he deserved more support from the band than he got.  I can see how the drug issue would be worrying to Mike and the rest of the band, but like I said, until Brian monumentally fodaed up, they should have been behind him 100%.

True, Mike hadn't steered the band wrong either, but at that point, Brian was the one doing the steering, not Mike.  He was the one in creative control, and he instinctively knew that music was changing and that the "fun in the sun" surfing hits wouldn't cut it anymore.  Brian wanted to keep up with the other innovators like the Beatles, the Stones, etc.  He was on the cutting edge of the music business, and by the time of Smile, almost everybody knew it.  Again, I can see where Mike and the band may have had some reservations, but their leader needed their support more than ever and they weren't willing/able to give it to him.

[Chris Brown]

wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

I didn't mean physically stopping him...I meant that the band should have trusted him without resisting so much. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

I didn't mean physically stopping him...I meant that the band should have trusted him without resisting so much. 

You wouldn't have trouble trusting somebody who accused people of being witches, recorded hours of meaningless chants, canceled recording sessions with no prior notice, and in general was acting like somebody with bipolar disorder does before people knew what that was?

To me, the band was reacting how anybody would.  Like Luther said, sort of, pretend it wasn't Brian and it wasn't the Beach Boys.  Pretend it's your family.  If your dad started acting inconsistently and having trouble with his job, wouldn't you want to intervene at some point?

[Chris Brown]

wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

I didn't mean physically stopping him...I meant that the band should have trusted him without resisting so much. 

You wouldn't have trouble trusting somebody who accused people of being witches, recorded hours of meaningless chants, canceled recording sessions with no prior notice, and in general was acting like somebody with bipolar disorder does before people knew what that was?

To me, the band was reacting how anybody would.  Like Luther said, sort of, pretend it wasn't Brian and it wasn't the Beach Boys.  Pretend it's your family.  If your dad started acting inconsistently and having trouble with his job, wouldn't you want to intervene at some point?

You make a good point Josh...sometimes it is difficult to separate the musical part of it from the fact that they were a family first, a band second.  I would certainly want to intervene if that were the case with a member of my family. 

The only part of the analogy I have trouble with is that I don't think criticizing that person would be the best way to deal with those problems.  You would want to get him some mental help, certainly.  Had all of this Smile business occurred today, Brian's behavior would have probably landed him in an institution of some kind pretty quickly.  But in the context of the time (and the fact that he was a rock star), a lot of what he was doing was just considered eccentric, not necessarily signs of mental illness. 

But I digress...my point is that even with Brian's worrying behavior, I would think the inclination on the part of family would be to boost his confidence by fully supporting the project, not to question him and knock him down when you know he can't handle it.  They knew the music was good, so why not just go for it and see what happens?  Of course, there were MANY other problems that led to Smile not being released...to be clear, I'm not trying to pin the blame squarely on the Beach Boys or Mike.  Brian most definitely had his own issues that may have killed Smile either way.  I just think that, if nothing else, the band as a whole should have stood behind him more, thats all.

[MBE]

wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

Amen. I think Van Dyke leaving (even though he said he did it to help Brian) was a far bigger deterrent to Smile then anything else. Mike may have wondered about Cabinessence, but he did end up singing his lines. Mike went in the wrong direction eventually, but he had a lot to do with the Beach Boys commercial success. Brian was a one of a kind genius, and there would have been no group without him, but Mike was largely the one who sold Brian's vision to the masses. Mike didn't have near the talent of Brian, but anyone that wrote the marvelous songs on The Beach Boys Today obviously did have the ability to conceptualise and contribute to a more adult Beach Boys.

[Dancing Bear]

Van Dyke leaving...

Van Dyke still lived in LA and was always one phone call away from Brian, if more lyrics were required.

Before he left, what was his role in 1967? Brian's right hand in the studio? Moral support?

[Smilin Ed H]

deleted

[MBE]

Van Dyke leaving...

Van Dyke still lived in LA and was always one phone call away from Brian, if more lyrics were required.

Before he left, what was his role in 1967? Brian's right hand in the studio? Moral support?

Well except for a brief return in April, he stopped working with Brian at that point so I would say he basically quit. As to what he did before, it seems Smile was still a work in progress and he was still required lyrically. He probably to some extent was helpful in getting Brian to focus and yes he also seems to have provided moral support. I think he probably underestimated how important he was to the project. Hindsight is 20/20 nobody thought this stuff would be a big part of 20th century music history. I think all should be forgiven at this point because an everyday lapse of judgement can now be construed as something far more sinister.