15 Big Ones: the album with the most outtakes in music history?

[shelter]

On Andrew G. Doe's list of unreleased songs I counted 26 songs that were recorded after the Holland sessions ended and before the 15 Big Ones sessions ended... Sea Cruise and Child Of Winter were also recorded during that periode and the group had also already started working on Good Timin', Ding Dang, Come Go With Me, Shortenin' Bread and Angel Come Home... So that's a total of 33 songs that they had been working on between September 1972 and May 1976 that for some reason didn't end up on 15 Big Ones... That's gotta be a record number of 'outtakes'...

[Bicyclerider]

Yeah, there were definitely a lot of stuff they had worked on, but not that many were "finished."  Remember, the original plan the BB discussed was that there would be an album of oldies and then an album of original material.  Halfway through Brian said he'd had enough and what was finished to the point of being releasable ended up on 15 Big Ones. 

[Ian]

Also- There was a big question of quality control- Dennis and Carl weren't happy with 15 Big Ones at all. I think the original idea was to just warm up and get Brian back into the musid by fooling around and doing oldies-suddenly that became the record rather than the warmup.  Some of the songs honestly didn't deserve release- I mean Running Bear is a silly thing. You can't blame it all on Brian though- the rest of the group didn't seem to have many songs to offer. Dennis obviously held his stuff for a solo album. But where was Carl in that period- he wasn't writing much I guess.  Considering the potential that everyone showed in 1970-72 it is odd that by 1976 the only Wilson really writing songs for the Beach Boys was Brian

[Jon Stebbins]

Also- There was a big question of quality control- Dennis and Carl weren't happy with 15 Big Ones at all. I think the original idea was to just warm up and get Brian back into the musid by fooling around and doing oldies-suddenly that became the record rather than the warmup.  Some of the songs honestly didn't deserve release- I mean Running Bear is a silly thing. You can't blame it all on Brian though- the rest of the group didn't seem to have many songs to offer. Dennis obviously held his stuff for a solo album. But where was Carl in that period- he wasn't writing much I guess.  Considering the potential that everyone showed in 1970-72 it is odd that by 1976 the only Wilson really writing songs for the Beach Boys was Brian

I don't think Dennis "held" his stuff for a solo LP. I think the band, or Mike with Brian and Al's support...decided to go in a reverse direction artistically to try to recapture the mid sixties feel. That was a calculated decision. Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them. But it would be entirely inaccurate to say he and Carl weren't doing much, they were. Carl was mostly supporting Dennis' vision, sometimes co-writing(Rainbows,River Song) and usually singing and playing on DW's productions. Dennis had a ton of stuff in development and quite a few finished tracks...they just didn't fit in with where the BB's were going...thank God. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them.

Reportedly, his submission for what became 15 Big Ones was "Pacific Ocean Blues". Can you say "sore thumb" ? 

[John]

Wouldn't Let It Be technically have the biggest number of outtakes, although most are unreleaseable (insert 15 Big Ones joke here) due to the massive number of tracks they recorded at the Get Back sessions?

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them.

Reportedly, his submission for what became 15 Big Ones was "Pacific Ocean Blues". Can you say "sore thumb" ? 

Right...that and Rainbows and River Song and a few other things were in the offering plate...all of which would have fit beautifully if the Beach Boys creative trajectory had continued Sunflower to Holland to something POB-ish...you see 15 Big Ones kind of messed up that evolution, didn't it? And that is precisely why we ended up getting a Dennis Wilson solo LP at that time.

[adamghost]

On another tack, I've heard the argument made (and an alternate mix of "Had to Phone Ya" is compelling evidence to this effect) that the final mix of 15 BIG ONES left a lot to be desired, and there was a lot more depth to the tracks than what made it to the final cut.  Based on my conversations with Earle Mankey and others, I don't think it would have been a masterpiece, but I'm finding myself more persuaded that it could have been a much better album with a different mix.

[Jon Stebbins]

On another tack, I've heard the argument made (and an alternate mix of "Had to Phone Ya" is compelling evidence to this effect) that the final mix of 15 BIG ONES left a lot to be desired, and there was a lot more depth to the tracks than what made it to the final cut.  Based on my conversations with Earle Mankey and others, I don't think it would have been a masterpiece, but I'm finding myself more persuaded that it could have been a much better album with a different mix.

I heard and heard of this type of evidence as well...and I believe Brian was being steered into a less progressive direction as well...therefore the more eclectic mixes or more eclectic elements of some 15BO tracks magically changed into Happy Days.

[TonyW]

Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them.

Reportedly, his submission for what became 15 Big Ones was "Pacific Ocean Blues". Can you say "sore thumb" ? 

In much the same way that Morning Christmas sticks out like a "sore thumb" on the steaming pile of merda that was to be the Christmas album.

If there was to be a DW song languishing in his catalogue it should have been San Miguel - it would have found a comfortable home in 15BO.

[The Shift]

On another tack, I've heard the argument made (and an alternate mix of "Had to Phone Ya" is compelling evidence to this effect) that the final mix of 15 BIG ONES left a lot to be desired, and there was a lot more depth to the tracks than what made it to the final cut.  Based on my conversations with Earle Mankey and others, I don't think it would have been a masterpiece, but I'm finding myself more persuaded that it could have been a much better album with a different mix.

As good a case as any I've heard for a proper re-release with a disc of bonus tracks, for everything post-20/20 really. We're reaaaaallllyy missing out on a proper post-Capitol collection of rarities.  I'd like to have the lengthier version of R&R Music for one, just so I've got a decent sounding version to listen to!

[punkinhead]

you would've thought the Sunflower/Landlocked period had the most outtakes.

[Glenn Greenberg]

If there was to be a DW song languishing in his catalogue it should have been San Miguel - it would have found a comfortable home in 15BO.

San Miguel was much, much too good for 15 Big Ones.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

But since it was done around the same time as Susie Cincinatti , it could've worked on there. 

ITA about the mixes. Really, the single version of R&R Music should've been on there, as the album version is limp.  I wouldn't count Child Of Winter, as I think it was recorded specifically as a single.  Good Timin' would've been a great song to finish off for 15 BO.

[shelter]

you would've thought the Sunflower/Landlocked period had the most outtakes.

Correct me if I'm wrong... For Sunflower/Landlocked I counted 3 non-LP single tracks (Break Away, Celebrate The News, Cotton Fields) *, 5 outtakes that were released on compilations later on (San Miguel, Loop De Loop, Games Two Can Play, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, I Just Got My Pay), 5 outtakes that were included on later studio albums (Take A Load Off Your Feet, Susie Cincinnati, Back Home, Good Time, When Girls Get Together) and 6 unreleased outtakes (I'm Going Your Way, Over The Waves, Raspberries Strawberries, Where Is She, Won't You Tell Me and You Never Give Me Your Money). So that would make a total of 19 outtakes.

* Many BB tracks that were recorded as single tracks were included on the next album that came out (When I Grow Up/She Knows Me Too Well, Help Me Rhonda 45 version, Good Vibrations, Do It Again etc.), so I think it's reasonable to see these tracks as Sunflower 'outtakes'...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them.

Reportedly, his submission for what became 15 Big Ones was "Pacific Ocean Blues". Can you say "sore thumb" ? 

I don't agree. I never bought the argument and never will. A number of Dennis's songs would've fit on 15 Big Ones nicely.

I can easily hear the album ending "Back Home" - "River Song" - "Just Once In My Life". Easily. Or insert "Moonshine". Or "You And I". Sounds OK to me.

I have never read or heard an interview from the parties in question that Dennis submitted songs that were rejected by the group. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just never read it anywhere. Other than message boards of course...

Edit: I better edit this before I get hammered, even though I probably will anyway, but....The Beach Boys Love You is an exception. EVERYBODY'S songs were put on hold for that one. It was decided (by a vote?) that Love You was gonna be Brian's baby.

[Andrew G. Doe]

...and 6 unreleased outtakes (I'm Going Your Way, Over The Waves, Raspberries Strawberries, Where Is She, Won't You Tell Me and You Never Give Me Your Money). So that would make a total of 19 outtakes.

Make that 18 ½  - the basic track for "Raspberries, Strawberries" was recycled into "At My Window". 

[MBE]

Well 15 Big Ones hinged on Brian being front and center. He wasn't up to it yet so thus the oldies and old styled songs from Mike and Al. Frankly I think Mike and Al were much more in line with what most people took to be Brian's sound. Dennis and Carl's music was too individualistic to pass off as "Brian's". So despite Dennis and Carl doing better work, they just didn't fit in with the party line of Brian going back to his pre Smiley Smile role. To put it simply, the Beach Boys could not be seen to be a democratic unit in order for the "Brian is Back" junk to work. As someone who isn't a big Love You fan either, I think Dennis, Carl, Mike, and Al should have had songs on there too.

[Dancing Bear]

Nevermind the band's politics, but "Everyone's in Love With You" has as much to do with "Endless Summer's Beach Boys" as "Pacific Ocean Blue", "Rainbows", "River Song" etc.

I don't think the decisions were so musically oriented, more like being made by those who didn't skip the meetings to go sailing. Sure, that doesn't explain Carl's absence in the album.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I like Love You, but honestly...there was better material in the can. "Everybody wants to live" would've been great, "Sherry She Needs Me" would've been also,  and if he wanted an oldie on there, "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" would've smoked.

DB, about Carl...when did he start using smack again? 'Cause it's like he stopped giving a sh*t. Honestly, there was no reason for 15 BO to come out the way it did. It's not like he was doing anything besides touring after Holland, right? All of a sudden he quit writing. Not that he was the most prolific writer in the world, but after writing "Trader", he didn't do anything until "Full Sail" and "Going South"...shudder. Oh, and "Angel Come Home", but that was actually a great track.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I like Love You, but honestly...there was better material in the can. "Everybody wants to live" would've been great, "Sherry She Needs Me" would've been also,  and if he wanted an oldie on there, "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" would've smoked.

But that would've ruined the vibe that IS Love You. No oldies, no songs brought out of the can (with the exception of "Good Time", a song I love but which sounds so out of place vocally), a raw, honest snapshot of a recovering Brian Wilson in late 1976. Part of the greatness of Love You is that Brian didn't have to depend on "going back" to find material. "Everybody Wants To Live" is a great one, but the theme might've sounded out of place on the love-filled Love You.

[MBE]

Everyone's In Love is a progressive (if not a superb) track. I was thinking when I wrote my post about why it was on there and not the far better Pacific Ocean Blue. After all Mike did help write P.O.B. so he probably wasn't against using it. Again I would have to mark it down to style. Everyone's In Love has the Beach Boys trademark harmony sound on it and P.O.B. didn't.


I think Carl and Dennis only began to slide on stage during the last few months of 1976. I know very little about Carl's addiction but it seems to have started after he hurt his back in early 1976. From what I understand he was using painkillers and from there he seems to have gotten out of control.  Dennis was rumored to have tried herion in 1968 with Manson but he made it very clear in a 1977 interview that H was the only drug he never tried. Karen said she talked him into doing it on 12-31-77 for the first time. If that's so (and it does seem to be the case) then Carl was on it before Dennis.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I like Love You, but honestly...there was better material in the can. "Everybody wants to live" would've been great, "Sherry She Needs Me" would've been also,  and if he wanted an oldie on there, "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" would've smoked.

But that would've ruined the vibe that IS Love You. No oldies, no songs brought out of the can (with the exception of "Good Time", a song I love but which sounds so out of place vocally), a raw, honest snapshot of a recovering Brian Wilson in late 1976. Part of the greatness of Love You is that Brian didn't have to depend on "going back" to find material. "Everybody Wants To Live" is a great one, but the theme might've sounded out of place on the love-filled Love You.

The songs I'm referring to, such as "Everybody Wants to Live" were recorded around the same time as the songs that DID end op on LY. I referred to them as being in the can because that's what they are now...they weren't outtakes during the recording of Love You, they were just possible songs on the album. "Sherry She Needs Me" is an interesting case in that the vocal dated from 1976, but the track was from 1965.Can you imagine if that was the lead track? People would've been like, "Well his voice is still shot, but that sounds like a Brian Wilson production all right"... then again, "Let Us Go On this Way" was the perfect opener anyway.

[shelter]

Make that 18 ½  - the basic track for "Raspberries, Strawberries" was recycled into "At My Window". 

And I presume that You Never Give Me Your Money is the Beatles song? How complete is that, and has it ever leaked? I'd love to hear the Beach Boys do that song...

[John]

I believe it's instrumental, piano only, according to Badman.