did the Ballroom influence the creation of Harpers Bizarre?

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Does anyone think or know?  Same time period, same record label, same vocal sound.  I'm too embarrassed to find out myself . . .

[roll plymouth rock]

The Ballroom influenced a lot of things, including Smile. The story is that he walked into the Baby Please Don't Go session and was blown away, etc... I don't know about Harpers Bizarre specifically though, but they are great

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Okay, i'll work up the nerve and find out myself - one of these days

[roll plymouth rock]

Do you know a member of the Ballroom - or Harpers Bizarre - or something??

[Uncomfortable Seat]

something+

[roll plymouth rock]

speaking of the ballroom, look what just came up on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330177942297&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

$400!

it's an amazing, amazing 45 and super rare...wish i could afford it 

[dogear]

Great record, but totally overpriced. Picked it up a couple of years ago for $20. Available on CD: 1. Rev-Ola's Ballroom Collection and 2. Sundazed Magic Time. Still looking for some other Boettcher goodies though, especially one he did for Our Productions.

[roll plymouth rock]

oh yeah...i wouldn't pay $400 for it, but i want it pretty badly. i have magic time and a large collection of boettcher productions and related albums (always on vinyl when possible)...this ballroom single has proved to be rather elusive though. you are lucky that you found it for $20. which our productions release did he do? that sandy one? i've got that..

which boettcher things are you looking for? i've got a couple i'm looking for too..i'll post a little list of my collection when i have a chance because it would be fun to compare collections, its rare to meet another boettcher conaisseur.

[Uncomfortable Seat]

I really, really wish the whole Ballroom album was available on vinyl . . .

Gimme a fortnight.  Perhaps i'll be able to work up the energy to get an answer to my own question

[dogear]

@loveandmercy - there just a few Boettcher collectors around, but it's extremely difficult to find those super rare and obscure singles he did as a producer in 1965/66. For a nearly complete discography check www.curtboettcher.com.
I'll get back to you with some of my goodies when I've got some time to spare. Was just able to pick up an obscure one last week:
Lou Berrington and the African Kamp
The Kwella/The Kwella Stroll
Parkway 114
where he makes fun of a new dance craze and teaches the audience the steps. Must have been fun to make.

[roll plymouth rock]

the ballroom album on vinyl would probably be one of the best "fantasy" sunshine pop albums to own...fantasy in the sense that acetates are pretty much unavailable and the title has yet to see official release. the other two i'd love to hear on lp are jan & dean - carnival of sound and tandyn almer's 12 song demo acetate. the beach boys lei'd in hawaii wouldn't be bad either 

dogear...curtboettcher.com has definitely turned me on the some of the more obscure boettcher releases. i've only been collecting boettcher related stuff for a few years but have found a fair bit...not many from that 65-66 period though  my collection looks like this right now (excluding cds):

45s:
introduction the goldebriars
tommy roe - sweet pea
jacobson & tansley - dream with me
lee mallory - that's the way its going to be (brazilian pressing)
the association - standing still
the millennium - it's you picture sleeve
the millennium - 5 am
sagittarius - another time
sagittarius - i guess the lord must be in new york city
moses lake - oobleck
curt boettcher - share with me
the association - just about the same
mark richardson - i keep it hid
curt boetcher - i love you more each day

LPs:
goldebriars-s/t (peru pressing)
goldebriars-straight ahead
along comes the association
tommy roe - it's now winter's day
friar tuck and his psychedelic guitar
chad & jeremy - cabbages + ark
eternity's children - s/t
sagittarius - present tense + blue marble
gordon alexander - gordon's buster
paul revere & the raiders - hard'n'heavy
curt boettcher - misty mirage
voices of the millennium
bards - moses lake recordings
danny cox - birth announcement
emmitt rhodes - s/t
song - album
curt boetcher - there's an innocent face
andy goldmark - s/t
diamonds
etc....

..and i have the millennium - begin on 8-track, and the begin promo ad. i have also made and a lino cut art print using the begin album cover in the design, i guess i'm really into that album

[dogear]

loveandmercy... I think the 45 stuff is really interesting. I've got all those on your list except the Mark Richardson side; I'm told it's of his lesser exciting efforts. Here's some more from my collection:
Goldebriars: Shenandoah/Pretty Girls...
Goldebriars: I've got to love.../Castle on the Corner
Summer's Children:The Summer's long/Everybody's been Talking
Association: Along comes.../Your Own Love
Association: Cherish/Don't Blame..
T. Roe: Hooray fro Hazel/Need your love
Mallory: That's the way.../Many are the times
Summers Children: Milk and Honey/Too Young to marry
Association: Standing Still/---
Mallory:Take my hand/The Love Song
Roe: Winters Day/Kick me Charlie
Roe: Sing along.../Nighttime
Roe: Sweet Sounds/Moon talk (great!)
Bootiques: Mr Man of the World/Did you get your fun
Jameson: The new Age/Places and Times
Jameson: Right by my side/Jamie
Millenium: It's You/I just want (PS)

We're in 68 now so I stop for the time being.

Two which are still discussed.
The Looking Glass: Silver and Sunshine/If I never love again (Vailliant V 750) no credit but it sounds very boettcheresque
The Hep Stars (pre ABBA) Musty Dusty/It's been a long long Time (label says produced by Steve Clark,  but many of those are supposed to be Boettcher productions. They did a whole album on Chartmaker with a lot of CB tunes in 1968
The Sandy 45 seems to be definitely non-Boettcher - still a very nice one though.

The Two goldebriars albums have recently been rereleased on Cd by Collectors Choice with a lot of bonus tracks from their third unreleased album.
 

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Okay, today I finally worked up the nerve to ask . . .

"When you first started recording Harpers Bizarre, were you influenced by what Curt Boettcher was doing at the time?"

"Who's that?"

Okay, I guess that answers that question!   Sorry for the delay . . .

[roll plymouth rock]

Ha, ha...yeah.  No one who was also recording in LA at the time seemed to dig CB. PF Sloan told me that Boettcher wasn't anything and that The Millennium was all Usher or something to that effect. Personally, I imagine Boettcher being extremely strange and reclusive...most of his songs weren't hits save for Association, Tommy Roe and such so they probably didn't even hear some of his crazier productions.

On another note, find out anything else that was interesting about Harpers Bizarre? I was just listening to The Secret Life Of... it's still great!

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Ha, ha...yeah.  No one who was also recording in LA at the time seemed to dig CB. PF Sloan told me that Boettcher wasn't anything and that The Millennium was all Usher or something to that effect. Personally, I imagine Boettcher being extremely strange and reclusive...most of his songs weren't hits save for Association, Tommy Roe and such so they probably didn't even hear some of his crazier productions.

On another note, find out anything else that was interesting about Harpers Bizarre? I was just listening to The Secret Life Of... it's still great!

After he said "who's that?", I mentioned the Ballroom and the Millennium, and then he said "oh, oh . . . no!" in a slightly disgusted tone of voice.  Apparently, the only major outside influence on Harpers Bizarre's sound - which was basically his invention - was the Beach Boys.

Perhaps surprisingly, he considers Secret Life an artistic failure.  He thinks the first two albums were the ones.  I once tried to ask him a question about Vine Street and his answer was "we did Vine Street?"  He did remember that the decision to cover The Battle Of New Orleans was not influenced by the Vietnam War and was just a "cute non-sequitur."

Today I also asked him if that's a Moog at the beginning of I Love You Alice B. Toklas, why Small Talk didn't appear on an album, and why the album version of Cotton Candy Sandman had all the background vocals removed.  He couldn't remember enough to answer any of those questions, or why Small Talk, which he thought was "great," was the B-side to Both Sides Now, which he thought was "terrible."  However, he thought they were all good questions - when I asked if he knew that John Peterson died last month, he replied yes and told me that he'd been hanging out with Ted Templeman a lot for the past couple of months and would pass along my questions to him if he could remember them.  There you have it.  Groovy, huh?

[roll plymouth rock]

Ha, ha...yeah.  No one who was also recording in LA at the time seemed to dig CB. PF Sloan told me that Boettcher wasn't anything and that The Millennium was all Usher or something to that effect. Personally, I imagine Boettcher being extremely strange and reclusive...most of his songs weren't hits save for Association, Tommy Roe and such so they probably didn't even hear some of his crazier productions.

On another note, find out anything else that was interesting about Harpers Bizarre? I was just listening to The Secret Life Of... it's still great!

After he said "who's that?", I mentioned the Ballroom and the Millennium, and then he said "oh, oh . . . no!" in a slightly disgusted tone of voice.  Apparently, the only major outside influence on Harpers Bizarre's sound - which was basically his invention - was the Beach Boys.

Perhaps surprisingly, he considers Secret Life an artistic failure.  He thinks the first two albums were the ones.  I once tried to ask him a question about Vine Street and his answer was "we did Vine Street?"  He did remember that the decision to cover The Battle Of New Orleans was not influenced by the Vietnam War and was just a "cute non-sequitur."

Today I also asked him if that's a Moog at the beginning of I Love You Alice B. Toklas, why Small Talk didn't appear on an album, and why the album version of Cotton Candy Sandman had all the background vocals removed.  He couldn't remember enough to answer any of those questions, or why Small Talk, which he thought was "great," was the B-side to Both Sides Now, which he thought was "terrible."  However, he thought they were all good questions - when I asked if he knew that John Peterson died last month, he replied yes and told me that he'd been hanging out with Ted Templeman a lot for the past couple of months and would pass along my questions to him if he could remember them.  There you have it.  Groovy, huh?

I presume this was Dick Scoppettone? I like Small Talk too...and I also dig the 45 of Poly High/Knock On Wood. Did he have an opinion on 4? I can see how people thought the other albums were more well rounded than Secret Life, but to me it still has its charm. And I think that's the way it was (and still is to some degree). All those LA/Sunshine guys and gals liked the Beach Boys sound as much as Brian like Spector's sound.

[Uncomfortable Seat]

I presume this was Dick Scoppettone?

No, it's their producer(that's why it too so long for me to call him! ).  He just thinks the first two albums had better material and hold together better than Secret Life or 4.  I more or less agree with him, although I certainly think the latter two "work" and are good albums. 4 was the first album he actually let them play instruments on.  He mentioned today that he also thinks Poly High was good

[dogear]

"Cotton Candy Sandman" seems two different versions to me. The 45 besides being speeded up, has the accordion missing and the strings are sometimes substituted by clarinettes etc. Even though it was not metioned on the Sundazed CD reissues, the 45 was arranged by Perry Botkin Jr. while the album version was arranged by Nick De Caro. My favourite from 4 is "There's No Time Like Today", only simple songs can be that beautiful. The same goes for some of the Boettcher/Millennium demoes.

[Uncomfortable Seat]

"Cotton Candy Sandman" seems two different versions to me. The 45 besides being speeded up, has the accordion missing and the strings are sometimes substituted by clarinettes etc. Even though it was not metioned on the Sundazed CD reissues, the 45 was arranged by Perry Botkin Jr. while the album version was arranged by Nick De Caro. My favourite from 4 is "There's No Time Like Today"

I listened to them more closely and yeah, they definitely sound like two different versions.  I also checked the reissues and they do credit De Caro as having arranged both, although there could be a mistake.  There's No Time Like Today is certainly a nice one.  My favorite on 4 might be Something Better

[dogear]

Re: Cotton Candy Sandman
I checked my Canadian 45 again (WB 7172) it says "arranged by Perry Botkin Jr." In the Sundazed reissue booklet the label of the US 45 is pictured (WB 7172) but there it reads "arranged by Nick De Caro" - another mystery to solve. Maybe Lenny knows - he produced both versions.

[roll plymouth rock]

Re: Cotton Candy Sandman
I checked my Canadian 45 again (WB 7172) it says "arranged by Perry Botkin Jr." In the Sundazed reissue booklet the label of the US 45 is pictured (WB 7172) but there it reads "arranged by Nick De Caro" - another mystery to solve. Maybe Lenny knows - he produced both versions.

slightly off topic, but i LOVE some of Lenny's productions on the Everly Brothers - Roots album!!!

ps-which CCS mix is better LP or 45??

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Re: Cotton Candy Sandman
I checked my Canadian 45 again (WB 7172) it says "arranged by Perry Botkin Jr." In the Sundazed reissue booklet the label of the US 45 is pictured (WB 7172) but there it reads "arranged by Nick De Caro" - another mystery to solve. Maybe Lenny knows - he produced both versions.

If he doesn't remember that there were two versions of Cotton Candy Sandman, it seems doubtful he could recall offhand who arranged each one.   We'll see.  Maybe he'll talk to Ted Templeman about it

ps-which CCS mix is better LP or 45??

I dig the 45 version more myself

[dogear]

definitely the 45 version - much more daring as far as vocals and instrumentation goes.

Yes, there are some great Waronker productions from the late sixties, collaborations with Parks as arranger, too:
Mojo Men (Sit down I Think I Love You 45)
Randy Newman's first album (The Beehive State on 45 was a different version as well)
Everly Brothers  (T for Texas 45)(Empty Boxes 45, written and arranged by Ron Elliott)
Ry Cooder (first album, with One Meat Ball as a highlight)
Sal Valentino (Alligator Man 45)
Arlo Guthry (Running Down The Road album/Valley To Pray 45)
Tom Northcott (his 45s are great as well, especially Donovan's Sunny Goodge Street - WB7051- with tons of balalaikas and accordions in it) - a blueprint of the "Burbank Sound"