Most Complex Brian Wilson Compositions

[shelter]

"Surf's Up" is complicated but if I was having to work it out on the piano, the chords make sense to me. 

Maybe the chords make sense, but the tempo changes don't... 

[brother john]

I think one of Brian's most complex is Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder). Some pretty complex tihngs going on in there.

I can't believe I forgot that one!  The chords Brian used are so cool, very jazzy in a sense...he was really starting to like those diminished chords around that time.  And that string arrangment blows me away every time.

There aren't any diminished chords in this one, but what the hell... 

[pixletwin]

I think one of Brian's most complex is Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder). Some pretty complex tihngs going on in there.

I can't believe I forgot that one!  The chords Brian used are so cool, very jazzy in a sense...he was really starting to like those diminished chords around that time.  And that string arrangment blows me away every time.

There aren't any diminished chords in this one, but what the hell... 

Whats so complex about a diminished chord? 

[bossaroo]

There aren't any diminished chords in this one, but what the hell...

well, there's a half-diminished or two.  do two halves make a whole diminished? 
give the guy a break.

[the captain]

Depending on a person's background, nothing is very complex about anything that anyone has mentioned in this thread. Key changes, chords with extensions, tempo changes...hardly revolutionary stuff no matter what Sean Lennon or David Crosby may have said in this documentary or that.

Brian's arrangements and his creative editing ideas are/were a lot more complex than the actual compositions.* That's why it didn't really make sense when someone earlier mentioned how amazing it was that he wrote them pounding in that block-chord style on piano. He wrote the songs, figured the chords, in that style. It is entirely doable. However, then he had the imagination to come up with arrangements that, in the mid-60s, especially, went far beyond his own instrumental skills.


*Obviously I'm not taking anything away from those compositions. They're brilliant. Complexity doesn't equal quality, otherwise no pop at all would be much good.

[Chris Brown]

I think one of Brian's most complex is Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder). Some pretty complex tihngs going on in there.

I can't believe I forgot that one!  The chords Brian used are so cool, very jazzy in a sense...he was really starting to like those diminished chords around that time.  And that string arrangment blows me away every time.

There aren't any diminished chords in this one, but what the hell... 

Okay I'm no expert on theory by any means, but as far as I can tell there are a few during the string break. 

[Aegir]

I think there is one diminished chord in Don't Talk.

[the captain]

One fully, one half, if I'm not mistaken.

[mikeyj]

Complexity doesn't equal quality, otherwise no pop at all would be much good.

Spot on there Luther. I HATE when people say "this isn't very complex, so it's not very good".

[matt-zeus]

Complexity doesn't equal quality, otherwise no pop at all would be much good.

Spot on there Luther. I HATE when people say "this isn't very complex, so it's not very good".

Music is all about emotion for me, so if chord changes are brilliant but don't move me (along with the melody) then it doesn't get me like some 'simpler' music does.
Two bands I can think of who I like who use 'complex' chord progressions are Steely Dan - who I love but they don't 'move' me particularly, and Genesis (Peter Gabriel era) - who have a lot of unusual changes/key changes/tempo changes etc - who send shivers up my spine considerably with much of their music because they knew how to imbue the songs with emotional impact.

[Boiled Egg]

as a veteran nerd, and former sheet music wallah, i'm going to wade in here and say - yes, all the above, especially 'surf's up', 'this whole world' (barking mad), 'til i die', etc.

there are some great little subtle things as well, like the passage at the end of 'in the back of my mind' with the falling bass line (and, while we're about it, what on earth are the strings doing on the fade?)

but, for sheer harmonic barminess, you've got to go a long way to beat 'mrs o'leary's cow'.  (even 'fall breaks...' resolves to a sensible, pipe-and-slippered F major now and then.)  'molc' is completely indescribable.  no chord names can do it any justice.  the first sequence has a bass line playing Ab - Gb - Fb - Gb (with fifths and octaves above each note) over a sort of second inversion Faug (or third inversion Dbmaj7+5) chord played on four flutes (C-Db-F-A) and, when they arrive later, backing vocals singing Bb7/Ab - Ab7/Gb - Gb7/Fb - Ab7/Gb7.  the second sequence takes the bass line to C - A - C - Eb, the flutes to (B-C-E-G#) the backing vocals singing some sort of F major chord.  and, just for good measure, strings and whistles and sirens sliding up and down and all over.  the sum total of that would, to a sheet music transcriber, be pretty much [N.C.]

or an embolism.

blimey, brian can mix it up.  it's the effortlessness with which he does it, as others have noted, that makes it so accomplished.

[pixletwin]

You guys are funny. I don't see why a diminished chords is any more complex than any other chord.

The thing which is complex in Don't Talk is the voice leading (I'm not talking about vocals) in the strings as he moves from chord to chord. 

[mikeyj]

Can somebody tell me (in plain English) what sort of things make a composition complex. And am I right in thinking that Brian just made things sound complex (in some things) with his arrangements. Because some of the songs sound pretty bloody complex to me.

[Big Bri]

Matt-Zeus,
   I agree with you fully about early Genesis sending shivers up the spine with the voicings that Tony Banks,Rutherford & Hackett used.
   Genesis was always about "feel".Especially in the 70's.

Bri

[the captain]

You guys are funny. I don't see why a diminished chords is any more complex than any other chord.

They aren't.

[the captain]

Can somebody tell me (in plain English) what sort of things make a composition complex. And am I right in thinking that Brian just made things sound complex (in some things) with his arrangements. Because some of the songs sound pretty bloody complex to me.

The recording of a song can be looked at (listened to) in many ways, and can be simple or complex in many ways. So everyone probably has his or her own view of this. But some possibilities include:

- theoretical complexity, meaning the structure of the song is out of the ordinary. Instead of a standard pop format of, say, I-IV-V7, it uses unusual chord progressions, key changes, etc.
- arrangement complexity, meaning even if it isn't necessarily difficult as a piece of music (the lead sheet looks simple), maybe the background harmonies and instruments are arranged in such a way as to be difficult or unusual
- engineering/production complexity, meaning that it was technologically difficult
- lyrical complexity, meaning VDP wrote it, and Mike Love didn't

[Jonas]

@ the last one...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

The recording of a song can be looked at (listened to) in many ways, and can be simple or complex in many ways. So everyone probably has his or her own view of this. But some possibilities include:

- theoretical complexity, meaning the structure of the song is out of the ordinary. Instead of a standard pop format of, say, I-IV-V7, it uses unusual chord progressions, key changes, etc.
- arrangement complexity, meaning even if it isn't necessarily difficult as a piece of music (the lead sheet looks simple), maybe the background harmonies and instruments are arranged in such a way as to be difficult or unusual
- engineering/production complexity, meaning that it was technologically difficult
- lyrical complexity, meaning VDP wrote it, and Mike Love didn't

theoretical complexity - The Warmth of the Sun

arrangement complexity - Sloop John B

engineering/production complexity - Good Vibrations

lyrical complexity - I can't think of any that Brian wrote. His lyrics, although can be could, tend to be very simple. Since this topic is about Brian compositions then it doesn't count if VDP wrote the lyrics.

[thomasogg]

Might I suggest 'Ding Dang'?

[donald]

I'm a self taught guitarist and have no formal training in music.  Over the years i've learned some things about chord structure and different keys and so on, but nothing stretched me to learn more than trying to play BW compositions on the guitar.  After learning WOTS I began to understand a lot more about different keys and chord structures that I have been able to apply elsewhere.

So the lesson is to try as many BW compositions as you can on your favorite instrument.  You'll be a better musician for it.

[Chris Brown]

I'm a self taught guitarist and have no formal training in music.  Over the years i've learned some things about chord structure and different keys and so on, but nothing stretched me to learn more than trying to play BW compositions on the guitar.  After learning WOTS I began to understand a lot more about different keys and chord structures that I have been able to apply elsewhere.

So the lesson is to try as many BW compositions as you can on your favorite instrument.  You'll be a better musician for it.

I definitely agree with that, and I'd like to add "you'll be a better songwriter" too.  Getting into Brian's music when I was around 17 sparked a big change in my songwriting.  No more I-IV-V over and over again.  Learning Brian's songs, figuring out how he does things and makes the changes work, made me want to experiment with chords and be more creative musically.  But as you said, it certainly made me a better musician also.  I got more and more into piano (I had been mostly just a guitar player before that), to the point where now I think I'm pretty good for someone without any training.  It's no coincidence that my playing is very derivative of Brian's.