1996

[Wilsonista]

OK.

If there was a vote.....

1. Bruce wouldn't had any say one way or another because of his status as "hired hand".
2. Carl, by the late 80's was probably tired of always fighting Mike over the shows.  He probably gave in in the spirit of "social harmony".  Doesn't excuse his action, but I'm flabbergasted that you aren't even trying to look at it from Carl's (or anyone else's standpoint except for Mike's). I can understand Carl's position.
3. Brian's solo career was already in  full swing. Landy probably thought "ehh. Whatever".
4.Al DID object strongly to cheerleaders and did fight Mike. Hell, he fought Carl too over the repertoire.  I can handle you blaming Carl and Brian (more like grdgingly tolerate), but  you are dead wrong in blaming Al. It was hardly his fault that he was outvoted (if a vote did happen).

Yeah...but what comes around goes around. Al voted with Mike and against Carl and Dennis on countless artistic issues in the mid to late '70's..and that started the dominoes falling directly towards those cheerleaders. He sold out in the '70's and then tried to reverse it in the '90's...too late.

One has to ask this: did he side with Mike because he really believed Mike's artistic judgement was sound or  did the lifestyle differences between the two camps nudge Al towards the TM side?  I would have hoped that Carl's own  "clean-up" would have made him understand why Al voted how he voted in the 70's. Obviously he didn't. That to me, is unfair to Al.

[Dancing Bear]

Carl and Al had their chance in the 80s and 90s to show how it should be done. Carl released two solo albums, wrote 3 tracks for BB'85 and was part of the trio CD with Lamn and Beckley. Al took decades to release a solo album and has come up with FIVE new compositions in the last 26 years.

I have all this stuff and listen to it from time to time, but I'm a fan. We can debate about the politics between Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce for years, but what did those guys have to offer to their audience since the seventies ended?

[mikeyj]

Well, somebody voted FOR the cheerleaders other than Mike. Why not hold them accountable? And THAT is the issue.

This is becoming a trend on this board. Mike Love comes up with an idea to improve The Beach Boys. It might be the craziest, dumbest, loopiest idea that you ever heard. I'll admit that. Some of Mike's ideas are stupid. But, then, his ideas become reality. Why? Because they were APPROVED BY A VOTE BY THE OTHER GUYS! So who's really to blame?

I'm not absolutely sure, but I would think that having young ladies come out on stage during a Beach Boys' concert and dance to some of the songs would be something that would have to be discussed and voted on by the band. I don't think Mike Love would be able to DICTATE something like that. So Mike brings up the idea and it's passed. And that's important - it's passed.

If the idea was so bad, that it demeaned their legacy, thwarted their creativity, and publicly embarrassed them, then how could it possibly get passed? Because BRUCE liked the idea. CARL let it pass. BRIAN didn't care. I would love to know how AL voted.

I remember reading an interview where Al said he hated the cheerleaders and that is was becoming a travelling circus act or something like that anyway. And also in a Goldmine interview with Mike in 1992 he talked about how he was virtually controlling the band during the making of Summer In Paradise saying something like "everybody has to pass everything by me so if I can tell its commercial" etc... So I think it may have been a case of Carl etc.. not caring. Like I'm not saying that he and the others liked or disliked the idea of cheerleaders but the point is I think the band was turning into the Mike Love show by that stage anyway. So Im not sure if the issue is exactly "somebody voted FOR the cheerleaders other than Mike" because I don't think that mattered I just think that Mike seemed very forceful about his ideas and always has and that the others figured "well with all the fighting and other crap in the past between the band I think Ill just let Mike have what he wants." Someone summed it up best when they said that Carl and maby the others just accepted Mikes idea "in the spirit of "social harmony"". So I think (and of course this is all my opinion) that "Mike Love would be able to DICTATE something like that" because I think he pretty much had control of the band by that stage.

[Wilsonista]

Well, somebody voted FOR the cheerleaders other than Mike. Why not hold them accountable? And THAT is the issue.

This is becoming a trend on this board. Mike Love comes up with an idea to improve The Beach Boys. It might be the craziest, dumbest, loopiest idea that you ever heard. I'll admit that. Some of Mike's ideas are stupid. But, then, his ideas become reality. Why? Because they were APPROVED BY A VOTE BY THE OTHER GUYS! So who's really to blame?

I'm not absolutely sure, but I would think that having young ladies come out on stage during a Beach Boys' concert and dance to some of the songs would be something that would have to be discussed and voted on by the band. I don't think Mike Love would be able to DICTATE something like that. So Mike brings up the idea and it's passed. And that's important - it's passed.

If the idea was so bad, that it demeaned their legacy, thwarted their creativity, and publicly embarrassed them, then how could it possibly get passed? Because BRUCE liked the idea. CARL let it pass. BRIAN didn't care. I would love to know how AL voted.

I remember reading an interview where Al said he hated the cheerleaders and that is was becoming a travelling circus act or something like that anyway. And also in a Goldmine interview with Mike in 1992 he talked about how he was virtually controlling the band during the making of Summer In Paradise saying something like "everybody has to pass everything by me so if I can tell its commercial" etc... So I think it may have been a case of Carl etc.. not caring. Like I'm not saying that he and the others liked or disliked the idea of cheerleaders but the point is I think the band was turning into the Mike Love show by that stage anyway. So Im not sure if the issue is exactly "somebody voted FOR the cheerleaders other than Mike" because I don't think that mattered I just think that Mike seemed very forceful about his ideas and always has and that the others figured "well with all the fighting and other crap in the past between the band I think Ill just let Mike have what he wants." Someone summed it up best when they said that Carl and maby the others just accepted Mikes idea "in the spirit of "social harmony"". So I think (and of course this is all my opinion) that "Mike Love would be able to DICTATE something like that" because I think he pretty much had control of the band by that stage.

Bingo!

Something else to consider: when Bruce had bypass surgery a few years back, did the touring BB take time off and postpone their tour dates? Of course not! When MIKE had back surgery a few years prior to Bruce's health scare, did the band postpone touring? You bet they did!

[oldsurferdude]

Yep, Mike was absolutely in control-there's no doubt about it-and "Summer in Paradise" definitely proves it.

[Wilsonista]

Carl and Al had their chance in the 80s and 90s to show how it should be done. Carl released two solo albums, wrote 3 tracks for BB'85 and was part of the trio CD with Lamn and Beckley. Al took decades to release a solo album and has come up with FIVE new compositions in the last 26 years.

I have all this stuff and listen to it from time to time, but I'm a fan. We can debate about the politics between Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce for years, but what did those guys have to offer to their audience since the seventies ended?

Did you consider Al was never a "solo album" kinda guy? More interested in being a team player? Look at the Family and friends band and see how many lead vocals were dished out to other members?

[mikeyj]

Yep, Mike was absolutely in control-there's no doubt about it-and "Summer in Paradise" definitely proves it.

\

Yeh thats the funny part of it, Mike in the interview says "I understand whats commercial because I co-wrote Kokomo and I also wrote the part in "Good Vibrations" that goes "im picking up etc.." and then he says how the songs on Summer In Paradise have to be approved by him so that he can see if they are commercial enough!! How many units did that sell again?...

[Dancing Bear]

Carl and Al had their chance in the 80s and 90s to show how it should be done. Carl released two solo albums, wrote 3 tracks for BB'85 and was part of the trio CD with Lamn and Beckley. Al took decades to release a solo album and has come up with FIVE new compositions in the last 26 years.

I have all this stuff and listen to it from time to time, but I'm a fan. We can debate about the politics between Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce for years, but what did those guys have to offer to their audience since the seventies ended?

Did you consider Al was never a "solo album" kinda guy? More interested in being a team player? Look at the Family and friends band and see how many lead vocals were dished out to other members?

I'll listen to whatever he releases. If he's only comfortable 'going solo' at 65, fine with me.

But aren't we debating about how Mike Love has held the band back? I'm asking, did Al have any vision, ambition or material to be held back by band politics?

Crack at Your Love
California Calling
Island Girl
PT Cruiser
California Energy Blues

[tpesky]

The first 3 are all better than SIP!!!  Crack at Your Love was a Brian/Landy song that Al rewrote the lyrics to cause they were so bad. He indicated this an ESQ interview a few years ago.  Al mentioned he gave Brian credit on California Calling to make up for it.

Mike may have been in control, but Al did convince the group to do the 93 tour and Carl to sing Sail on Sailor, battles in a war he lost I guess.  I agree with Jon that Al had his chance to change some stuff in the 70's and voted with Mike, whether it was for lifestyle or not and I think he kicked himself for this years after, probably still does.  Perhaps that is what Mike means when he keeps saying Al has a hard time getting over past wrongs or moving on?
Al also mentioned in the same ESQ interview, when Mike first talked about the cheerleaders, he said it would be from a local high school or college to come out for 1 song (Be True To Your School).  Then it morphed into permanent cheerleaders and that affecting the order of the setlist and the songs.
Nothing is more cheesier than Billy H and the cheerleaders doing Wipeout late 80's. What was HE thinking??

[Wilsonista]

That is one thing I admire about Al. At least he is willing to admit that he made some questionable decisions in the BB. Would Sir Michael do the same?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And yet I prefer them all to Bruce. Go fig.

[Dancing Bear]

"I let Mike trick me" doesn't sound like such a painful admitance of his own questionable decisions, does it?

Has any Beach Boy ever admited that he could have done things differently / could have dealt better with the problems / could have had a better understanding about each other's needs?

"I should have smashed his face" and "I should have sued him a lot earlier" don't count. 

[Aegir]

But aren't we debating about how Mike Love has held the band back? I'm asking, did Al have any vision, ambition or material to be held back by band politics?

Crack at Your Love
California Calling
Island Girl
PT Cruiser
California Energy Blues

I love ALL of those songs.

[Summer_Days]

Crack at Your Love
California Calling
Island Girl
PT Cruiser
California Energy Blues

I love ALL of those songs.

I've never heard 'Island Girl', 'PT Cruiser' or 'California Energy Blues', but the other two I know. I can't stand either one. Especially 'California Calling', which is the worst song on the '85 album, along with 'Passing Friend'. "Totally rad", huh?

Bleh.

Trying to rewrite 'Surfin' USA', just like 'Kona Coast' was trying to rewrite 'Hawaii'. Idiocy.

[Aegir]

I think California Calling is the best song on BB85. None of that crappy production. And that "ring ring ring" part in the chorus made me laugh so long the first time I noticed it.