Beach Boy factions

[c-man]

Ed Roach is convinced Dennis subconsiously "sabatoged" his own solo career (in every way from picking an out-of-focus photo for the album cover, to OK'ing a muddy mix, to calling off the solo tour).  Why?...fear of the unknown.  Face it, The Beach Boys were a safety net.

In much the same way, Brian refused to launch a solo career for over two decades (if the "Caroline, No" single had been a hit, you can bet he would have).  No doubt, pressure from the family "guilted" Brian into sticking with them, but I think his fear of the unknown had as much to do with it.  Landy's the one who convinced him to go for it when the Boys turned down his offer to produce them in the '80s. 

[warnakey]

His solo album wasn't released until after his death? I'm pretty sure it was released in 1977, six years before he died.

Oops.

[kshane]

And the whole thing about Dennis traveling in his own bus during the Holland period had nothing to do with inter-band relations...far from it. Dennis chartered his own transportation so he could go off the proposed route and take fishing side trips. He'd often invite band members, side-men, even fans to go with him. Sometimes he'd go it alone. He bought new fishing equipment, hip boots, poles, reels for Al one time and took him along.

Jon, all I really said was that I saw him emerge from his own bus at several tour stops. I suppose in the context of this thread, it reads as if I had some insight into problems in the band. I have no idea what was going on, and didn't mean to suggest that I did. I can also tell you that Mike asked us if he could meditate in our dressing room, and Carl asked us if he could throw up in our bathroom, but I didn't think either of those things mattered in this context.

[c-man]

And the whole thing about Dennis traveling in his own bus during the Holland period had nothing to do with inter-band relations...far from it. Dennis chartered his own transportation so he could go off the proposed route and take fishing side trips. He'd often invite band members, side-men, even fans to go with him. Sometimes he'd go it alone. He bought new fishing equipment, hip boots, poles, reels for Al one time and took him along.

Jon, all I really said was that I saw him emerge from his own bus at several tour stops. I suppose in the context of this thread, it reads as if I had some insight into problems in the band. I have no idea what was going on, and didn't mean to suggest that I did. I can also tell you that Mike asked us if he could meditate in our dressing room, and Carl asked us if he could throw up in our bathroom, but I didn't think either of those things mattered in this context.

Wow...Carl was just the polite-est guy, wasn't he?  Most musicians would just DO it!

[kshane]

Wow...Carl was just the polite-est guy, wasn't he?  Most musicians would just DO it!

As a matter for fact, Carl did seem like the nicest guy, despite his request. I didn't really get to know him, but he was very cool in that one encounter.

[Ian]

Clearly in the later 70s its obvious that Dennis was frustrated. He was against the 15 Big Ones album and didn't want anything to do with MIU.  He planned to tour on his own in 1977 but backed out. He worked on a second solo album, but didn't get it done.  Despite his talent as a singer and songwriter- his role in the BBs was defined onstage as drummer and singer of one song.  After awhile that gets boring. When you can do a job on auto pilot and and are not being challenged and you feel that you made a big mistake- that is a recipe for depression.  Like Brian-he probably should have taken the plunge and left the group, but the family dynamic kept him in-to his own unhappiness

[Jon Stebbins]

Clearly in the later 70s its obvious that Dennis was frustrated. He was against the 15 Big Ones album and didn't want anything to do with MIU.  He planned to tour on his own in 1977 but backed out. He worked on a second solo album, but didn't get it done.  Despite his talent as a singer and songwriter- his role in the BBs was defined onstage as drummer and singer of one song.  After awhile that gets boring. When you can do a job on auto pilot and and are not being challenged and you feel that you made a big mistake- that is a recipe for depression.  Like Brian-he probably should have taken the plunge and left the group, but the family dynamic kept him in-to his own unhappiness

Saying Dennis backed out of his solo tour leaves a slightly skewed impression...it was a pretty complex thing. I didn't know the details when I wrote my book, although i had a very strong hunch... but it has been confirmed to me in recent years that DW was given an ultimatum by the Beach Boys organization in late 1977. There are eyewitnesses to a meeting. Do the tour and you're not in the Beach Boys anymore is what it was about. It was that simple. He had the solo set rehearsed beautifully(tapes exist)with a band consisting of the best of the BB's sidemen, Munoz, Carter, Hinsche, Figueroa and Ed Tuleja...and Carl too. But the BB's gave him the ultimatum and DW "stepped back" as Ed Carter commented in my book. From here Dennis went into free fall. And i appreciate all the Dennis related commentary here, by everyone, I don't mean to over-correct or exude bitchiness to those whose comments I have followed or reflected on...I'm just trying to keep it real. Thanks dudes and gals!! I love Dennis Wilson!!

[Rocker]

He had the solo set rehearsed beautifully(tapes exist)with a band consisting of the best of the BB's sidemen, Munoz, Carter, Hinsche, Figueroa and Ed Tuleja...and Carl too.

Let the search begin.... 

[Smilin Ed H]

So if Carl was supportive at Dennis, the BB who put the brakes on his solo tour were Mike and Al?  I'm assuming BW wasn't involved, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

[Dancing Bear]

Dennis was the one to blame for his problems, for not doing that solo tour, for not finishing Bamboo, for wrecking his own life.

I wonder if he had any friend who would say that to his face.

[the captain]

I don't mean to over-correct or exude bitchiness to those whose comments I have followed or reflected on...I'm just trying to keep it real. Thanks dudes and gals!! I love Dennis Wilson!!

I, for one, think it's really cool to have you and other very knowledgeable and even authoritative members on this board. Frankly, it doesn't take much to skew things from "I know" to "I read" to "I think I read" to "I think I heard," and the facts become jumbled beyond recognition. Many of us are more than happy to be corrected, especially as it adds more interesting depth and humanity to the people whose music we all enjoy. And it seems to me that any "bitchiness" you may ever exude is innocent, just as caught up in the moment as the innocent mistakes and mis-statements of other posters who are caught up in their own moments. For the most part, everyone keeps it respectful and cool, which is what makes this board great.

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis was the one to blame for his problems, for not doing that solo tour, for not finishing Bamboo, for wrecking his own life.

I wonder if he had any friend who would say that to his face.

That's ALL he was hearing from family and many,many friends for the last few years of his life. Have you heard something different?

[Wilsonista]

Mr. Bear:  It seems like you're advocating the hardass "tough love" routine.  Fine. Sometimes playing the "tough love" card just makes you an ass.

[Dancing Bear]

Dennis was the one to blame for his problems, for not doing that solo tour, for not finishing Bamboo, for wrecking his own life.

I wonder if he had any friend who would say that to his face.

That's ALL he was hearing from family and many,many friends for the last few years of his life. Have you heard something different?

No, I was really wondering.

[Dancing Bear]

Mr. Bear:  It seems like you're advocating the hardass "tough love" routine.  Fine. Sometimes playing the "tough love" card just makes you an ass.

I wasn't there, I can't tell you the best way to help Dennis in '79 or '81 or '83.

Can you?

[adamghost]

I've heard it expressed by some in the know that Dennis not being allowed to do the solo tour in '77 is what started his spiral (in addition to some of what Stebbins has posted).  It's probably more complicated than that, but it's significant that when Brian and Dennis advanced to a certain point, the band as corporate entity made life extremely hard for them to keep moving in that creative direction, basically shutting them down...and in both cases (and you could argue Carl as well to a lesser degree), that's when their lives took a hard left turn for the worse.

[the captain]

How much of Brian's and Dennis's creative output of that time would the Beach Boys have accepted as Beach Boys material, if given the chance? The gist of a few of these posts is that the band said, 'hey, you're a Beach Boy--quit doing your best stuff elsewhere.'  And honestly, I can understand that sentiment coming from a Love or Jardine if it meant those people would focus back on the group itself. On the other hand, if they didn't want it in the Beach Boys or want it elsewhere, it gets more problematic.

When I think of Brian's material from that era, I think about things like Adult/Child, which was a Beach Boys project, at least partly. The others are all represented in some capacity or another. But what about POB? I know the band did "River Song" live on occasion. Would they have or did they consider some of the other material as Beach Boys material?

(I look forward to finding a next-edition copy of Mr. Stebbins' book on Dennis, as I've never found it in a used bookstore and--sorry--I'm not going to pay $75-100 or whatever for a copy on eBay. [No disrespect, Jon.])