Documentary!

[Galaxy Liz]

Not me, Galaxy Liz. On the contrary, thanks for highlighting these OTHER problems. In fact, the Telegraph article misses completely "the point" as abysmally as this 2024 documentary does.
Every narrative about the Beach Boys HAS to talk of phoenix Brian rising from his own ashes. Brian's current predicament is obviously very sad, but does not impair IN ANY WAY the greatness of his "redemption" arc.
That so many people DON'T GET IT HOWSOEVER boggles the mind, and I'd have the temptation to actually swear, in a bad way, about that.
Though I fear that no amount of swearing would suffice...

The good thing about the Telegraph article was this bit: ''While it wouldn’t be quite fair to accuse Beach Boys of entirely overlooking definitive and sometimes grisly details, it is right to accuse the film of seeking to place a positive spin on even the ugliest moments. Worse still, it seeks to imply that talent of the group’s members was, to some degree at least, evenly spread. But it really wasn’t.' I hope the documentary tried to emphasise the good stuff in order to do tribute to Brian but as they had so much about the publishing rights lawsuit (not the others, mind) and even Manson, it;s hard to believe that. Limiting the story to 1980 (to go along with the book but then the same question applies for that) suggests they didn't want to show how unproductive the post 1980 Beach Boys were, except for touring greatest hits. The most interesting things they had done post 1980 were as solo artists until That's Why God Made the Radio and the C50 tour. Both of those things involved Brian and the C50 ended badly. Perhaps not the narrative some in the band wanted.  But for me the real triumph wasn't Endless Summer and a return to greatest hits. It was Brian and his band playing Pet Sounds, completing and premiering SMiLE (and more). But I don't suppose that's the narrative some in the band wanted either.

I would be in favour of just doing a documentary on Brian - which could tell the story including that of his brothers and the group since they were all part of his life.  This would allow the telling of the whole story.

I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, Beautiful Dreamer, Long Promised Road, the A&E special....how many documentaries do we need about Brian? Is there an area where those are lacking?

-How many documentaries do we need on The Beach Boys?

Everyone is complaining that much of the story was missing from the new documentary.  The reason parts are missing is because much of it isn't their story, it is for publicity and to write the narrative of some of the band members.

A complete biography of Brian with an in depth look to all of his work and Dennis and Carl's work, not just limiting it to The Beach Boys, would resolve that.

[Angela Jones]

Just to add that I know that the book and documentary are separate entities but both involve the same band and some of the band members seem to have an interest in accentuating a part of the story only - and oddly two of the bits they don't cover are TWGMTR and the C50.  Obviously it can be argued that solo works are not in context.

[HeyJude]

Just to add that I know that the book and documentary are separate entities but both involve the same band and some of the band members seem to have an interest in accentuating a part of the story only - and oddly two of the bits they don't cover are TWGMTR and the C50.  Obviously it can be argued that solo works are not in context.

Listen to Howie Edelson discuss the Genesis book on that "Surf's Up" podcast. He offers a very good explanation for why it becomes a minefield getting into something like C50.

I think everybody would love the biggest book and longest documentary. But there are also practical and logistical considerations for getting something released with approval and/or co-operation.

But I think the documentary missing so much is a much more murky, complicated issue that probably involves elements of the back story we don't know about.

[HeyJude]

-How many documentaries do we need on The Beach Boys?

Everyone is complaining that much of the story was missing from the new documentary.  The reason parts are missing is because much of it isn't their story, it is for publicity and to write the narrative of some of the band members.

The reason this documentary ended up the way it did is far more involved and complicated than simply parts being missing because some band members have agendas that preclude those things being mentioned. I don't think Mike Love has any problem with mentioning "Keepin' the Summer Alive", or Landy, or "15 Big Ones", or whatever.

A complete biography of Brian with an in depth look to all of his work and Dennis and Carl's work, not just limiting it to The Beach Boys, would resolve that.

Getting more granular and focusing more on Brian doesn't get anybody a "more complete" story. The same could be said for the group as a whole. A "complete" group biography of all them would get you, well, the complete story!

I think people are focusing way too much on the "Mike's agenda" stuff when it comes to this new documentary. The problems with this documentary involve more than non-Wilsons trying to hog too much of the story. Indeed, Al clearly feels marginalized and has issues with the doc. There are more fundamental, ground-level problems with this documentary.

The "solution" would involve getting a different team and ethos in doing the doc, as opposed to, what, tossing the idea and doing a "Wilson Brothers" documentary? How does that tell the whole story? Don't get me wrong, give me all the thorough docs on all the members you want. But the problem with this new Disney doc is not that it's speaking to Mike Love's (or whomever's) agenda too much and not focusing enough on the Wilsons. The problem is the director doesn't get it at all across the board, and something fatally injured this documentary during the process such that it couldn't cover enough years. That's a Disney problem, a director problem, and possibly a myriad or beefs and arguments and politics across multiple people/organizations.

[Zenobi]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

I mean artistically, of course. Refer to the Hoffman board to see that in action.

[feelintheflows]

Well judging by the artwork for the posters we knew the documentary would be 👎🏼👎🏼

[rab2591]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

[Galaxy Liz]

-How many documentaries do we need on The Beach Boys?

Everyone is complaining that much of the story was missing from the new documentary.  The reason parts are missing is because much of it isn't their story, it is for publicity and to write the narrative of some of the band members.

The reason this documentary ended up the way it did is far more involved and complicated than simply parts being missing because some band members have agendas that preclude those things being mentioned. I don't think Mike Love has any problem with mentioning "Keepin' the Summer Alive", or Landy, or "15 Big Ones", or whatever.

A complete biography of Brian with an in depth look to all of his work and Dennis and Carl's work, not just limiting it to The Beach Boys, would resolve that.

Getting more granular and focusing more on Brian doesn't get anybody a "more complete" story. The same could be said for the group as a whole. A "complete" group biography of all them would get you, well, the complete story!

I think people are focusing way too much on the "Mike's agenda" stuff when it comes to this new documentary. The problems with this documentary involve more than non-Wilsons trying to hog too much of the story. Indeed, Al clearly feels marginalized and has issues with the doc. There are more fundamental, ground-level problems with this documentary.

The "solution" would involve getting a different team and ethos in doing the doc, as opposed to, what, tossing the idea and doing a "Wilson Brothers" documentary? How does that tell the whole story? Don't get me wrong, give me all the thorough docs on all the members you want. But the problem with this new Disney doc is not that it's speaking to Mike Love's (or whomever's) agenda too much and not focusing enough on the Wilsons. The problem is the director doesn't get it at all across the board, and something fatally injured this documentary during the process such that it couldn't cover enough years. That's a Disney problem, a director problem, and possibly a myriad or beefs and arguments and politics across multiple people/organizations.

The point is if you look at the history of the group post 1980 it shows a qualitative decline and at this time Brian's involvement had reduced.  What happened at the C50 when they did another album and Brian was involved, they had more success.  I'm not sure Mike would be happy with anyone coming to that conclusion especially after having said that he could step in because he was another genius, nor would he be happy covering the disagreement over the tour not continuing.  But it isn't just Mike it is what the current owners of the catalogue think - this is a publicity vehicle for them and they want a positive, uplifting and popular video as do Disney.  Having something about a period where the group was just a touring band with no new music could be covered in 2 minutes and probably not as visually interesting as young people frolicking on a sunny beach.

My point about doing a Brian biography is that this contains the whole story.  Not just the Wilson brothers, not just Brian but the group when it was at it's most popular and Brian's subsequent solo career, finalising SMiLE and his other albums - any Beach Boy biography is not going to cover those things.

[Galaxy Liz]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

Absolutely right.  Though I'm not totally sure of people not trying to F*** Brian over again, or at least get back into working with him again if the opportunity arose.  M&B have been here in England flogging the book and the video and saying things about writing with Brian no doubt for the publicity it generates but if that causes fans to create pressure for it, Brian sadly no longer has Melinda as a buffer.

[Zenobi]

Look, there are obviously, internally in the BB organization, over 60 years of built up politics and history, and that includes sentiments or feelings that are not always sympathetic to Brian, and in some cases unfair.

But I'm not sure how we arrived at there being some sort of current, present-day vast movement of people trying to "f**k over Brian Wilson."

This new doc is not good, and how it addresses Brian is certainly part of that. But it's really a case of the thing being bungled, as opposed to a purposeful conspiracy.

I'm not saying people don't still try to get certain facts/sentiments/points of view into these things. But going around saying in 2024 there is a large movement of people trying to "f**k over Brian Wilson" because they're jealous is, well, I don't know what that is. Like, let's just say whatever we mean. Is this code for Mike Love? Or is this really a case of like trying to regress back to the "everybody else in the band are talentless and would be pumping gas if it weren't for Brian" narrative?

I'm not saying Mike Love doesn't want to still get his story/narrative across, and we've *all always* been aware (or should have been) that we're headed towards a "last man standing" situation with these aging guys where the narrative will never *not* be spun at least a little bit.

But I think people are being pretty conciliatory and sympathetic and compassionate about Brian Wilson in 2024. Mike Love still wants everybody to know Murry boned him over the songwriting issue. But I also think his heart breaks seeing Brian in rough shape, as it does everybody. And like all of us, they all take that in and process it differently. Look at poor Al, on the red carpet seemingly convinced they all still have more songwriting and another album in them. Hey, I hope he's right.

It is NOT a zero sum game. Recently, I "quarreled" here to "defend" Mike. So, no, what I said in my post above was not code for Mike, nor did I mean that only Brian is talented. I love all the Boys, and think they are/were all remarkably talented, and love particularly the stretch 1967-1977 where their talents shone, not only in singing.
No, I meant exactly with I said: there are STILL people who never spend a good word for Brian, even now - quite the contrary. You find them easily on the Hoffman board.

[Zenobi]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

 Exactly, Rab.And you are right, not only artistically. That has too often trespassed into personal attack zone.

[HeyJude]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

I mean artistically, of course. Refer to the Hoffman board to see that in action.

You feel that a group of Brian naysayers on the Steve Hoffman Forums amounts to "people trying to f**k over Brian"? And this relates to the Disney documentary how?

In what way are people "f**king" Brian over? What are they saying?

Every fandom has weird subsets of pro and anti this or that. I read the Hoffman forums pretty often and have been for years; it's a huge sprawling place with thousands of posters. Setting aside the audiophile wankery stuff, the rest of the discussions go down all of the usual paths. Mike Love defenders, weird Brian detractors, and tons of uber Brian fans who will defend him to the death.

Across every sector of the internet that I've ever run across that discusses the Beach Boys (boards, Twitter, Reddit, the Usenet back in the 90s, and so on), the vast majority of people are ardent supporters of Brian. There has always been a weird "Club Kokomo" faction, but it's pretty tiny.

[HeyJude]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

Okay, so now I'm catching on here that what we're mostly talking about is a small faction of fans/posters, I presume mainly including people no longer posting here? How does this relate to the Disney documentary? Even if there is a faction of fans online, past and/or present, trying to say awful stuff about Brian, how did that impact this Disney documentary?

I've of course been on the board for a zillion years, and was here for all of the NPP stuff. It was mostly a series of hundreds of posts (pages?) about the semantics of what "autotune" is, and a discussion (sometimes enlightening, sometimes not so much) about how we go about criticizing artists, including Brian.

This forum, and as I mentioned in a previous post, nearly every place where the Beach Boys are discussed (short of like Mike Love fan forums I guess) features overwhelming support of Brian, occasionally to the point of being overly-forgiving of his flaws. I bow to nobody in my love for Brian Wilson (if anybody wants to look at the hand full of Mike cheerleaders going at it with me for years on old posts here, feel free), and there have been specific times where he's been unfairly maligned. I don't view the fandom as such as a big source of this. The times Brian has most unfairly been maligned or insulted have been things like the ESQ "Is he brain damaged?  Yes" article, or past years of Mike interviews where he raises Brian and the other Wilsons' drug and alcohol abuse of many decades ago. Yes, small subsets of fans have weird axes to grind or agendas that skew anti-Brian for some reason (I don't think it's jealousy, etc., but I'll get to that in a later post), and sure, sometimes that comes in weird unpredictable waves over the years. But Brian has overall been given tons of sympathy and empathy from the vast majority of fans.

[HeyJude]

The point is if you look at the history of the group post 1980 it shows a qualitative decline and at this time Brian's involvement had reduced.  What happened at the C50 when they did another album and Brian was involved, they had more success.  I'm not sure Mike would be happy with anyone coming to that conclusion especially after having said that he could step in because he was another genius, nor would he be happy covering the disagreement over the tour not continuing.  But it isn't just Mike it is what the current owners of the catalogue think - this is a publicity vehicle for them and they want a positive, uplifting and popular video as do Disney.  Having something about a period where the group was just a touring band with no new music could be covered in 2 minutes and probably not as visually interesting as young people frolicking on a sunny beach.

My point about doing a Brian biography is that this contains the whole story.  Not just the Wilson brothers, not just Brian but the group when it was at it's most popular and Brian's subsequent solo career, finalising SMiLE and his other albums - any Beach Boy biography is not going to cover those things.

I mean, all of that depends on who is making the film, and what they choose to do. Someone could come in and biff a Brian Wilson doc just as easily as a Beach Boys doc.

I don't see how doing another doc on Brian, covering the same stuff his own docs have covered, would fix anything about the problems presented by this Disney doc.

A Beach Boys doc could "contain the whole story" just as much as a Brian doc could. It just takes the right person/people making it. Someone that would broach the 50th anniversary project on all fronts. I have no interest in a Brian doc covering the 50th with no input from the other members, because all of their positions/feelings are part of the story.

And as I mentioned, a well-done BB doc could *absolutely* cover Brian's 2000s triumphs as well. Indeed, a good storyteller could weave that into being estranged from the band and then eventually reuniting in 2012.

There seems to be a feeling that some have that they want Brian and his story more segregated from the rest of the band. I don't think that's needed if a good filmmaker (or writer if we're talking about a biography, etc.) knows their s**t and tackles the WHOLE story. It can be done. It was done in 1998 by Alan Boyd, a guy who is very sympathetic and simpatico with Brian Wilson and his saga.

[HeyJude]

Absolutely right.  Though I'm not totally sure of people not trying to F*** Brian over again, or at least get back into working with him again if the opportunity arose.  M&B have been here in England flogging the book and the video and saying things about writing with Brian no doubt for the publicity it generates but if that causes fans to create pressure for it, Brian sadly no longer has Melinda as a buffer.

I think they're just making small talk for the press junkets. Does it seem a bit head-in-the-sand for Mike or Al to suggest they could write new stuff with Brian? Maybe, I dunno. It seems innocent and not cruel in any way. Maybe naive, but I'm not going to burst into the room and tell Al Jardine that he's crazy for thinking Brian might be able to write or record a song again.

I don't think anybody needs to worry that Brian presently feels any pressure based on Mike or Bruce randomly talking on Good Morning Britain or whatever about doing something with Brian in the future. I assure everybody that it's highly unlikely Brian is watching that stuff.

[HeyJude]

Look, there are obviously, internally in the BB organization, over 60 years of built up politics and history, and that includes sentiments or feelings that are not always sympathetic to Brian, and in some cases unfair.

But I'm not sure how we arrived at there being some sort of current, present-day vast movement of people trying to "f**k over Brian Wilson."

This new doc is not good, and how it addresses Brian is certainly part of that. But it's really a case of the thing being bungled, as opposed to a purposeful conspiracy.

I'm not saying people don't still try to get certain facts/sentiments/points of view into these things. But going around saying in 2024 there is a large movement of people trying to "f**k over Brian Wilson" because they're jealous is, well, I don't know what that is. Like, let's just say whatever we mean. Is this code for Mike Love? Or is this really a case of like trying to regress back to the "everybody else in the band are talentless and would be pumping gas if it weren't for Brian" narrative?

I'm not saying Mike Love doesn't want to still get his story/narrative across, and we've *all always* been aware (or should have been) that we're headed towards a "last man standing" situation with these aging guys where the narrative will never *not* be spun at least a little bit.

But I think people are being pretty conciliatory and sympathetic and compassionate about Brian Wilson in 2024. Mike Love still wants everybody to know Murry boned him over the songwriting issue. But I also think his heart breaks seeing Brian in rough shape, as it does everybody. And like all of us, they all take that in and process it differently. Look at poor Al, on the red carpet seemingly convinced they all still have more songwriting and another album in them. Hey, I hope he's right.

It is NOT a zero sum game. Recently, I "quarreled" here to "defend" Mike. So, no, what I said in my post above was not code for Mike, nor did I mean that only Brian is talented. I love all the Boys, and think they are/were all remarkably talented, and love particularly the stretch 1967-1977 where their talents shone, not only in singing.
No, I meant exactly with I said: there are STILL people who never spend a good word for Brian, even now - quite the contrary. You find them easily on the Hoffman board.

Sure, there are always naysayers/critics for anybody. I don't think that's a huge problem for Brian vis-a-vis the entire fan base.

And, to the degree weird slivers of fandom have a weird axe to grind with Brian or Brian's story, I don't think it comes from jealousy or feeling insecure about not being as talented. I think it comes from more broad sociopolitical and personal politics issues (e.g. some people are predisposed to be less sympathetic towards the "tortured genius" thing, or mental illness in general, etc.), and in some cases just the dumb team sports mentality a small group of fans take when it comes to this band, meaning it's the same small group that not coincidentally is extra critical of Brian and super sympathetic towards Mike.

But more pertinent to the topic of this new doc, I'm confused as to what some "anti-Brian" fans on message boards has to do with this new documentary having problems? I just don't see the connection.

[rab2591]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

Okay, so now I'm catching on here that what we're mostly talking about is a small faction of fans/posters, I presume mainly including people no longer posting here? How does this relate to the Disney documentary? Even if there is a faction of fans online, past and/or present, trying to say awful stuff about Brian, how did that impact this Disney documentary?

I've of course been on the board for a zillion years, and was here for all of the NPP stuff. It was mostly a series of hundreds of posts (pages?) about the semantics of what "autotune" is, and a discussion (sometimes enlightening, sometimes not so much) about how we go about criticizing artists, including Brian.

This forum, and as I mentioned in a previous post, nearly every place where the Beach Boys are discussed (short of like Mike Love fan forums I guess) features overwhelming support of Brian, occasionally to the point of being overly-forgiving of his flaws. I bow to nobody in my love for Brian Wilson (if anybody wants to look at the hand full of Mike cheerleaders going at it with me for years on old posts here, feel free), and there have been specific times where he's been unfairly maligned. I don't view the fandom as such as a big source of this. The times Brian has most unfairly been maligned or insulted have been things like the ESQ "Is he brain damaged?  Yes" article, or past years of Mike interviews where he raises Brian and the other Wilsons' drug and alcohol abuse of many decades ago. Yes, small subsets of fans have weird axes to grind or agendas that skew anti-Brian for some reason (I don't think it's jealousy, etc., but I'll get to that in a later post), and sure, sometimes that comes in weird unpredictable waves over the years. But Brian has overall been given tons of sympathy and empathy from the vast majority of fans.

Guitarfool was making a point about how those few in the fandom spreading BS have affected the perception of the band/members to varying degree, and specifically zeroed in on the lawsuit that claimed Brian was doing nothing for 40 years but getting royalty checks. But he made the point that "If anything can come from this documentary, hopefully some new listeners will be able follow up on their own after watching it to get to the truth, sift out the bullshit, and get deeper into the music as a result." Zenobi responded with a post, to which Lonely Summer asked if anyone had actually been trying to f*** over Brian this year. I responded with an overview of the nonsense that Brian has dealt with in previous years.

My post, and to an extent Lonely Summer's question had little/nothing to do specifically with the Disney+ documentary. However given it is a message forum where a multitude of topics can arise in a specific topic thread, it isn't that abnormal for parts of the conversation to meander off the main topic.

Of course Brian has been given a majority of sympathy by the fans. But some people have made it their mission (some publicly admitting to it) to be offensive toward Brian and Melinda which has altered opinions of newer/unknowing fans. And now back to the documentary...

[Zenobi]

Well, if nothing else this documentary is to praised for revitalizing our forum, which had been a bit "slow" lately...

[guitarfool2002]

Thank you Rab for actually reading my post and commenting on what I wrote. It was a direct response to what Zenobi had written, which I found very profound and telling, specifically about feeling like what he had learned and read about the band wasn't the truth until he actually heard things like the GV box set, specifically this: "I realized that what I had thought I knew was a lie. An enormous lie."

Here was a fan who had known from whatever sources were available what they thought was the truth, the story behind all the music and who created it, and it turned out years later not to be the whole story...hell, not even the true story.

And that mirrors almost exactly what happened to many young fans I witnessed come and go from the various online forums and outlets who were sold a false bill of goods by people they thought - in some cases who we all thought - were good, honest sources of information and who had no agendas other than to publish and share information in order for new and older fans to better understand what went into creating all this great music.

That sadly turned out not to be the case. Could we name names? Yes. Could we cite specific cases, both those known publicly and deeper insider stuff that most of the fanbase has no clue even happened to show examples? Yes. But not here, not now. Let's just say there is a choice between spreading rumors and falsehoods or choosing to spread information to foster a better understanding of the band and its music. Let's also say there is a choice between doing the right and honorable thing, or not doing so.

If a fan like Zenobi, who clearly has a passion for this music, felt like all the information they had read and gathered turned out to be false, so too are there many fans who believed certain people and their false information, and who may similarly feel ripped off or cheated. And others simply believe it in spite of the truth. That's their choice.

But my focus wasn't specifically on the fans or the "fan base". It was on those who knew better in some cases, or those who put a greater priority on spreading false information and, yes, trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, his wife, his family, and his reputation, to further whatever causes or agendas they may have been connected with, or whatever personal grudges or issues they may have injected into the process of publishing information for fans to read and consume.

This documentary is what it is: Just read the part that Rab extracted from my post and that's exactly how I feel. I also do not want newer fans to watch this and come away thinking certain things about Smile, the lawsuit(s) and song credits, or anything else that only skims the surface of much deeper issues and circumstances. I hope they dig deeper, go further into the mine in their own searches...hoping too that they don't go down the wrong mine shaft or run across the wrong miners in the process. It's already happened before. And some of those miners should have known better.

So I'm reposting exactly what Zenobi wrote and how I responded to it a few pages back. Hopefully the points will be more clear when they're seen in context and with a little more explanation.

The 1993 Good Vibrations box practically redefined the history of music in the last decades for me.
As I said before, after 1967 the Beach Boys disappeared in Italy. There was just one magazine covering pop/rock music, and it covered only mainstream rock, progressive rock and a sprinkling of fusion. The only "info" I had about the Boys was they "had disbanded due to their leader Brian Wilson falling into madness".
So from 1967 to 1993 I believed that what once was my favourite band did not even exist any more.
When I bought the GV box I did not know what I expect... and I was astonished, and delighted. I knew for the first time about SMiLE, and listened to those gorgeous sessions.
And then I marveled at all those other hidden gems... the 1967-to-1977 albums.
I returned, immediately, to being a rabid Beach Boys fan, only 1000%. And, yes, I realized that what I had thought I knew was a lie. An enormous lie.
And, of course, I could not foretell that Brian Wilson would return and sprinkle his magic again upon us.
I did not know that Dennis had penned his own Pet Sounds (Pacific Ocean Blue) and his SMiLE (Bambu).

Oh, what did I want to say?

I mean, there is so much about the Beach Boys, besides "the hits" and Pet Sounds. Insisting, like this 2024 doc, that after 1966 there was practically nothing of importance (maybe excepting Kokomo!) is, imho, unforgivable. A great disservice to the Beach Boys, to the fans and the world of music at large.

Yes, it's possible that 2 or 3 people, after seeing this doc, decide to try listening to, say, "Sunflower". I doubt that. Hope to be wrong.

Well said, and yes that '93 GV box set was a landmark release, and important for a lot of fans and people who would become even more devoted fans in the years after. It was a great time...and yet, even then, you had a yin and a yang situation where the band's music was finally being appreciated as music worthy of praise and attention beyond the hits, while simultaneously existing as a shell of a band whose current album sitting next to the two-fer reissues and the GV box set was Summer In Paradise. And the live shows featured dancing cheerleaders and hula girls existing in front of surfboard and palm tree backgrounds...while some of the best pop music of the 20th century was being performed.

I'll never get over those contradictions, which also happened in my personal life when I would play someone the Smile sessions, or Smiley/Wild Honey, or other similar material, then see them later after they saw or heard the current Beach Boys and were confused if not upset in some cases that the current albums and music from the same band was not on the same track or even the same universe as how the material was presented via the reissues, the box set, the Don Was doc, or even the Malcolm Leo documentary which was still available on VHS if you looked for it. Not saying it was all that way, but I'm hard-pressed to think of another band whose image and persona had such a Jekyll and Hyde existence especially after the public could hear Smile material and the 67-71 albums for themselves and judge that with what was current around 1991-1995.

But one comment you made stands out, when you said I realized that what I thought I knew was a lie, an enormous lie.

One of the bigger tragedies of the saga, particularly in the last 20 years or so but going beyond that, is how many lies were told, repeated, and believed about this band, and Brian Wilson in particular. People who a lot of us fans thought were trusted, honorable people and voices continued to spread lies and rumors that were simply not true. We could list them, but some of us already have been doing that for years. One glaring example out of many is how Brian  stayed in bed after 1967 and was unable to contribute to the music...and THAT truth was finally heard by the general public by way of the actual session tapes and various audio that blew all of that nonsense from before out of the water. People could hear it for themselves via legitimate releases of the sessions, rather than trusting the words being written online by those who knew better yet continued to spread false information.

Why someone would get enjoyment or pleasure out of trying to f*** over Brian Wilson is beyond me. I know that I and many of us fans can eventually fade into the sunset of life without having the issue of trying to f*** over Brian Wilson on our conscience and karma. I wonder if it even registers with some of those people who have tried to f*** over Brian Wilson in their words and actions, and decided to run with the lies and rumors along with other actions versus simply appreciating the man for his music and enjoying the gift which that music has been to us fans.

If anything can come from this documentary, hopefully some new listeners will be able follow up on their own after watching it to get to the truth, sift out the bullshit, and get deeper into the music as a result. It's life affirming and simply beautiful music which people of all backgrounds can connect with, and hopefully those new fans will be able to find the right sources and avoid the liars and the lies to better understand where all of this goodness came from.

[juggler]

So, for the first time in a couple decades, I just rewatched the "Endless Harmony" documentary.  And, you know what?  The new Disney doc not only doesn't add anything to what was done by Alan Boyd a quarter century ago, it actually subtracts.  EH treats Smile more respectfully and accurately 25 years ago... mind you, that was before BWPS and the 2011 box.  You've got the iconic front and back cover art in there.  You've got Sean Lennon in terms saying how amazing Smile is.   You've got the '70s live H&V in there that shows not only the strength of Smile material but also how it actually was part of the group's live repertoire.

 The Disney doc presents a fundamentally narrower, more pedestrian take on the story with fewer insights and less content, despite a similar runtime.

  And you know what EH has that the new doc lacks?  Humor.  There are some laugh-out-loud moments in EH... .... Steve Desper explaining what Murry was like... "Imagine being in a public library... and then a freight train comes through."  
.... Brian at the piano asking Al to hold his nose while he mimics Mike Love's lead vocal on California Girls...
.... The B&W I Just Wasn't Made for These Times film in which the boys are playing Old Maid and snub Mike Love... who wanders off to polish boots in the woods with a mask-wearing loner... it's a genuinely funny little film.
...  Mike Love in Paris talking about the "Louv-RUH" and mocking the city's outdoor latrines.

[Galaxy Liz]

I know I'm carrying a considerable amount of bias and anger on Brian's behalf - you'll have to filter it if it shows -

In the Telegraph article just the other day we were told the most important thing about Leonard Bernstein presenting Brian an H&V was that he consulted some sort of clairvoyant (?)took dope and went to bed.  No, the most important thing was this young man had produced an astonishing piece of music which a very well respected composer was comparing somewhat favourably to Mozart.  
We were told the GV chorus was written by Mike - he openly admits he didn't and that he just suggested that they use the bass line Brian composed and which underlies the verse.
We had Brian on record competently and coherently producing an album, writing astonishing music using a theme which was ahead of it's time with a skilled poet and it stopped.  From the band's point of view there had to be some excuse for it stopping other than the lyricist left because the band didn't think the music would sell.
20/20 Brian comes out of his bedroom and effortlessly adds the coda to Surfs Up.
For Holland we learn that "I'm on my way to sunny California" was something Brian sang in the studio just before he went home.
Do I like other music from the band - of course - though I'd argue that Brian had more musical skill than all of them.
What we need is a documentary produced by an independent, journalist to do a thorough investigation and warts and all history in documentary form.  Ignore the steak holders in the business and the band, get footage from others who own copyright to film.  Will we get it - I doubt it - perhaps posthumously in years in the future.  Lets hope that all the evidence of the actual history isn't 'vanished' in the meantime.

[Angela Jones]

So, for the first time in a couple decades, I just rewatched the "Endless Harmony" documentary.  And, you know what?  The new Disney doc not only doesn't add anything to what was done by Alan Boyd a quarter century ago, it actually subtracts.  EH treats Smile more respectfully and accurately 25 years ago... mind you, that was before BWPS and the 2011 box.  You've got the iconic front and back cover art in there.  You've got Sean Lennon in terms saying how amazing Smile is.   You've got the '70s live H&V in there that shows not only the strength of Smile material but also how it actually was part of the group's live repertoire.

 The Disney doc presents a fundamentally narrower, more pedestrian take on the story with fewer insights and less content, despite a similar runtime.

  And you know what EH has that the new doc lacks?  Humor.  There are some laugh-out-loud moments in EH... .... Steve Desper explaining what Murry was like... "Imagine being in a public library... and then a freight train comes through."  
.... Brian at the piano asking Al to hold his nose while he mimics Mike Love's lead vocal on California Girls...
.... The B&W I Just Wasn't Made for These Times film in which the boys are playing Old Maid and snub Mike Love... who wanders off to polish boots in the woods with a mask-wearing loner... it's a genuinely funny little film.
...  Mike Love in Paris talking about the "Louv-RUH" and mocking the city's outdoor latrines.

I also re-watched Endless Harmony and I completely agree.

I accidentally managed to refer to 'Endless Harm' when I was messaging a friend.  I corrected this - obviously not referring to the video which I like. But there has been quite a lot of harm from some quarters and the title 'Endless Harmony' sometimes seems rather ironic given the band's frequent lawsuits and disagreements. The vocals of course are another matter.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

A million percent agreed, ESPECIALLY with the posts re: Melinda. I think it’s a bit rich coming from certain people who did nothing but slander her while she was alive

[Rocker]

Still not having watched the documentary (and I continue to see not a big problem with the use of "Kokomo" but that's just a minor thing) but reading your reviews it kinda seems like everything that people like Alan Boyd, Mark Linett, Howie Edelson a.o. worked very hard for in the last years - and may I say decades - was overlooked. I had hoped that especially the critically acclaimed releases of recent years like "The Smile Sessions", "Sunshine Tomorrow", "Feel Flows" and "Sail on Sailor" not to forget the success of the reunion and somewhat of a rediscovery of Dennis' music would give people enough strength to go into those themes. Very disappointing.

[Zenobi]

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

People are trying to f--- over Brian? Today? 2024?

(while Zenobi was referring to artistic stuff, I think Guitarfool was spot on about his comments about "fans" and Brian Wilson)

Let's go back to the NPP days and see how many "fans" were treating Brian with kindness and respect. And yeah, no one is doing that publicly today, at least that I can tell - is the lack of snark due to Brian's age? Or that he hasn't released an album in a while? Either way, rewind a few years and the level of sh*t thrown at Brian was unreal. That atmosphere of "brain damaged Brian", or "Brian is the wheelchair bound grandpa forced to give a speech at Thanksgiving dinner", Brian didn't do any production work on Wild Honey, or that stupid Mike Love lawsuit where he claims Brian sat around collecting royalty checks for 40 years LOL, and all the rumors/gossip spread about Melinda Wilson (btw real classy the "RIP" posts after her passing from the same people who spread those rumors) that indirectly were a slap in the face to Brian and his family, and there are many more examples....Do you think all of that stuff disappears overnight?

Rewind a few years and yeah, people were trying to f*** with Brian and his family.

It's not so easily forgotten. So while this very day no one is out directly trying to f*** over Brian Wilson, I don't think those mindsets and perceptions disappear overnight, nor does the memory of how awful "fans" have treated the guy over the years.

A million percent agreed, ESPECIALLY with the posts re: Melinda. I think it’s a bit rich coming from certain people who did nothing but slander her while she was alive

Yes, sometimes I have the temptation to relent and "let it go". But when I think about Melinda and the unspeakable yahoos who used to call her "Mel...y", and other such pleasantries, no forgiveness is possible. There is a reason I post in this forum, though I may not agree 100% on everything. My memory is bad and getting worse, but I remember some things which happened in the wonderful world of Beach Boys "fandom" (hence my quote from Voltaire).