The correct Vega-Tables song structure. What was/is it?

[The Demon]

We can use this thread to discuss the original song structures of any Smile song. What do you think of Child Is Father Of The Man? There are two vocal mix structures, but also a instrumental mono mix. I think the instrumental  mix is the closest to the original structure. The only problem with it is that BWPS uses a different structure. But the piano part (bridge, which strats of the vocal versions) is at the end of the song, just like in the instrumentla mono mix.

And to add a question: what is known by now of the new included on disc 1 of the 2cd/Boxset?

The instrumental 3 minute mix clearly WAS the song structure as conceived by Brian during Smile, at least at some point - it doesn't mean he wouldn't change his mind.  It's a rare Brian mono instrumental mix from the Smile era and I'm frankly shocked they didn't use it as the template for the disc 1 version, but they went with BWPS instead.  the structure, if I remember correctly , is chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus.  There are two different vocal mixes for the chorus - one may be early and the other later to replace it, or possibly both were going to be used - it was not uncommon for Brian to add an extra level of vocals to a second chorus or second verse of a song.  He would also add instruments often to the second verse or chorus - like saxophones - but in the cut and paste sectional method he was using, he was recycling the same instrumental passages for the verses and choruses as he did later for Smiley.

Apparently didn't go with BWPS for Child, but came up with an entirley new structure - it is reported to be veg-reel piano section/bridge/chorus/verse/chorus. If it's indeed true, they probably have a good reason for that - it is confirmed that (at least part of the mix) is mastered from acetate.

Yeah, isn't that why the other mono mix isn't there--they have an acetate of a different version, implying he revised the song (or that this is an earlier version, but still a Brian creation).

[Bicyclerider]

Well we have some tape assembly edits of the pieces of Child, with different combinations of bridge/chorus and chorus/verse/bridge, so it wouldn't surprise me that some "test edit" of the pieces ended up on acetate.  Doesn't mean the final track would  have been anything other than the 3 minute instrumental mix though.  I'm just hoping what went into the decisions (like acetates and tape box notations) on the mixes are spelled out in the book, but somehow I doubt that will be the case.

[Chris Brown]

Well we have some tape assembly edits of the pieces of Child, with different combinations of bridge/chorus and chorus/verse/bridge, so it wouldn't surprise me that some "test edit" of the pieces ended up on acetate.  Doesn't mean the final track would  have been anything other than the 3 minute instrumental mix though.  I'm just hoping what went into the decisions (like acetates and tape box notations) on the mixes are spelled out in the book, but somehow I doubt that will be the case.

I don't think so either, but I'm hoping that after the release Mark will be brave enough to come on here and answer some of our more nitpicky questions, such as this one.

There must be a good reason why they wouldn't include a vintage Brian edit (even though we're already getting at least one), so I think it's certainly worth asking if the liner notes don't explain.

[hypehat]

Brave enough?! He can't do it for fear of being fired and sued within an inch of his life!

[Paul2010]

In the meantime I took a look at all the Vega-Tables mixes again, and now I think the new mix might be very close the the 'original' structure. It seems quite logical: a second Do a Lot after the second verse, the bridge before the fade, and the fade closing the track. The only thing that seems a bit superfluous to me is the vocal "I know that you'll feel better", without it the track sounds more structured and coherent to me. But if you want to include all the pieces recorded, the new mix is possibly the only logical way to do it.

[MJP]

Personally, I would have put in that wonderous musical bit that Brian stuggled to get right  "I put away my candy bar and i ate the wrapper".

It's absolutely fantastic.  One would assume it will be on the box somewhere.

[Bicyclerider]

It's "I three away my candy bar and I ate the wrapper" isn't it?

And what about the sessions for the two Do a Lots showing they were not recorded as choruses but as fades?

[Bicyclerider]

I just listened again to the Sea of Tunes Veggie sessions.  Do a Lot "chorus 1" (or versioni 2) is about 1'05", and chorus 2/version 3 is about 1'10" (the vocal sections of the tracks).  Both too long to be recorded as the chorus.

If you listen to track 20, the instrumental insert ( keyboard overdub) the overdub attempt is continuous through the "I know that you'll feel better" part and the "candy bar" verse.  That would indicate they were to follow each other and come after the first "do a lot" (again, typical of Brian to add something to the second go round of verses or choruses, either another layer of vocals or extra instruments).

Furthermore, track 36 which has some mono mix attempts has the end piano part of do a lot go into the scat vocal section directly into "I know that you'll feel better" directly into "I threw away my candy bar" verse.

I rest my case.

[Paul2010]

OK, next track: With Me Tonight. First of all: when was it recorded? The only track on the Smile box "You're With Me Tonight", seems to be recorded during SMiley SMile so that may be the Smiley version. Is the track represented elsewhere? There are three versions we know of, the slow, the fast, and the Hawthorne, CA version. Was it originally intended for another song, or was it a track itself?

[monicker]

This is a good point. I hadn't noticed the date on that. It does appear to be a Smiley session! Wow. If that is the case, that would be really odd because the other three bits of WMT don't appear to be on the box, which is a shame because they're all great.

[Chris Brown]

This is a good point. I hadn't noticed the date on that. It does appear to be a Smiley session! Wow. If that is the case, that would be really odd because the other three bits of WMT don't appear to be on the box, which is a shame because they're all great.

I hadn't noticed either, how strange.  I rather enjoy the fast version myself, I'm surprised that didn't make the cut.

I thought I'd read somewhere that it started as a part of "Heroes" (like half the album, it seems), which wouldn't surprise me but I can't say for sure.

[Julia]

The new mix differs quite a bit from the versions we knew till a month ago, even from BWPS. I think there are two possible reasons for this: or they tried to use as many pieces as possible in the new mix, or they have found some historical evidence for this new structure. I hope the latter is the case, as I think the reconstructed album should be as historically accurate as possible.

That ship sailed when they used the BWPS template for the album as a whole. I say if there's no vintage test edit (which should've been included where possible for historical accuracy but werent) then just do what sounds best. I have tons of problems with the way TSS Disc 1 was handled but the mix of Veggies isn't one of them. They took what was easily the worst major SMiLE song, a slog to get through on literally every bootleg I'd heard, and made it a highlight of the whole album, worthy to be the followup single to GV, fellow side-closer with SU and bookmark of Americana alongside Heroes.

Being said that the edits are good but the parts do not in my opinion fit that well. Clearly the "i know that you feel better" part should end the song. The "bop bop" edit should be before the ending.
The added end part seems to have no place in the song.

Then why was it recorded for Veggies??? I admit it threw me off at first too because I was used to Mok's "Heroes and Villains (Reprise)" but the boxset revealed (at least to me) it was actually recorded as the fade for Veggies--unless you think they lied? Personally I think the fade makes the song, it's by far the best part of it.