DYLW was part of Heroes

[seltaeb1012002]

No clue. It was definitely legit though. Would've been too hard to fake (matching sonic quality of the acetate, phase issues, etc).

TOMP, why did you delete that one?

And yeah, there is clearly some fan-editing on some of these. But I've got no doubt in my mind that bridge vocal was vintage + real.

The Heroes verse lead vocal sounds different to me. But again, I'm sure we've heard it before somewhere. Or maybe not.

[Matt Bielewicz]

Late to the party here... the link is still working for me, but I can't hear anything new in any of it. The split Mike/Brian lead on H&V is on SOT 17, isn't it?

And having Bicycle Rider first... well, in what I can hear, it is just literally *placed* first on the acetate. There's the BR section, and then that ends, and then there's a count-in, and then we hear H&V. The BR section isn't edited to H&V, it's just situated before it as a separate thing.

From memory, I seem to recall that there were a few of these acetates with different sections of different songs on them. Wasn't it the case that Brian took acetates of all sorts of stuff home from the studios to check out. A few years later, these would probably have been on cassette - just dubs of the various bits and bobs he'd been working on recently at the time, so he could gauge progress.

So I would have said that the fact that BR is plonked next to H&V on an acetate doesn't actually mean a thing. And, I would say, certainly doesn't imply that BR was going to be put before the first verse of H&V in any kind of finished mix... surely?

[chaki]

im so confused. 

[The Shift]

Late to the party here... the link is still working for me, but I can't hear anything new in any of it. The split Mike/Brian lead on H&V is on SOT 17, isn't it?

And having Bicycle Rider first... well, in what I can hear, it is just literally *placed* first on the acetate. There's the BR section, and then that ends, and then there's a count-in, and then we hear H&V. The BR section isn't edited to H&V, it's just situated before it as a separate thing.

From memory, I seem to recall that there were a few of these acetates with different sections of different songs on them. Wasn't it the case that Brian took acetates of all sorts of stuff home from the studios to check out. A few years later, these would probably have been on cassette - just dubs of the various bits and bobs he'd been working on recently at the time, so he could gauge progress.

So I would have said that the fact that BR is plonked next to H&V on an acetate doesn't actually mean a thing. And, I would say, certainly doesn't imply that BR was going to be put before the first verse of H&V in any kind of finished mix... surely?

All good Matt, agreed.

[The Old Master Painter]

I do not own these acetates, and I have never claimed to make that video. I have no idea this person took down that video. I'm only taking such things as a pinch of salt in terms of credibility, but it is rather interesting. And the acetate video was only meant to be one video, and I don't know how people are seeing five videos and stuff.

[The Old Master Painter]

Agreed, nothing new here except the order of the sections, and that in and of itself proves nothing other than someone has access to editing software. Also, I think the speed is slightly off.

Edit: for clarity, I'm talking about the 1.14 clip that the posted link takes me to.

I have no idea whether this is an actual acetate. I'm supposing it is, but it could very well not be too. A guy on Vimeo started talking to me about how he was going to make his mix of Heroes, and he started talking about an acetate which confrimed Worms was part of the song (at least Bicycle Rider). He linked me a video to it, and that's how this buisness got started.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Dude with the acetate just contacted me to explain. He took it down by mistake, it's back up now.

[seltaeb1012002]

Dude with the acetate just contacted me to explain. He took it down by mistake, it's back up now.

What say you? Have you heard this Dennis / Carl lead on "Worms" before?

[The Old Master Painter]

So I ask the inevitable question... Was Bicycle Rider part of Heroes? Is so, that would explain why a recycled Bicycle Rider became the chorus to Heroes in the summer of '67....

[seltaeb1012002]

So I ask the inevitable question... Was Bicycle Rider part of Heroes? Is so, that would explain why a recycled Bicycle Rider became the chorus to Heroes in the summer of '67....

Maybe that Bicycle Rider clip was the intro at some point. The keys are different, the verse would jump up +1 semitone, but that kinda works actually.

[Alan Smith]

So I ask the inevitable question... Was Bicycle Rider part of Heroes? Is so, that would explain why a recycled Bicycle Rider became the chorus to Heroes in the summer of '67....

Who knows (no-one).  While it's interesting to hear the sequence, I personally think it unlikely that Bicycle Rider would have been part of Heroes.  While there is the melodic recycling you mention, the two pieces have a different energy or groove if you like, that don't work together when the "full" DYLW is used. 

Heroes kicks off with an energetic relatively pacey clip and gells well with the little dit ba-dit dit dit dit dit bits and the preludes etc.  DYLW works well with BR and maintains it's own kinda mellow groove.  IMO, of course for anything Smile Sessions related.

And, whether new or stuff or no, thanks for the link and the dude who's link it is - saved me from fumbling around piles of old cd-r's and hard-drive archives to hear this stuff again.

[The Old Master Painter]

Hey. The guy has the acetates has a question, and he'd like me to share it with you: What was supposed to come after Bicycle Rider? We all know that the Bridge to the Indians was likely going to connect us to Roll Plymouth Rock, and then Bicycle Rider rings out, but what was supposed to come after that.

In the Smiley Single, another verse rings out, but there not really in the same key... What other vocal ditties are there that could possibly connect us back to the second Heroes verse?

Here's the edit he made (not an actual vintage edit), and it only goes up to BR, and then back to the first verse as an example of what could've come next ala the Smiley Single, but there has to be something that could've connected us back to a possible second verse. Heres the vid, enough blab: vimeo.com/153429318

[Bicyclerider]

Bicycle rider was the "chorus" of DYLW, had nothing to do with Heroes at the time it was recorded as far as we know - after Worms was recorded Brian played Heroes for Humble Harv Miller (the 'demo") and BR is not part of the song at that time.  After Brian decided to take Great Shape out of Heroes, BR was considered as a replacement section - hence the January work on BR (as a "Heroes" session) and you can hear on the joint Brian/Mike leads on SOT that BR is clumsily edited on AFTER the first two verses.  This BR on the acetate is the same BR we hear edited on after the verses - it starts with the same "edit" not a cold start but an edit into the section already started.

We don't hear a vocal on the Brian/Mike leads version of BR because the tape cuts off before the vocals come in.  I suspect if the tape kept running we would hear what we hear on the acetate.  The vocal sounds different on BR here than it does on what was previously released on boot and on TSS - might be an alternate vocal that was redone or doubled later.  It also does not have the overdubbed fuzz bass that was put on Jan 5 as well.

This is likely an acetate to hear the work in progress - what the Heroes verse and the Bicyclerider section sounded like, so Brian could decide if further work was necessary - ad I agree the order on the acetate doesn't really indicate that BR was at any time considered as an intro to the song.  If it was, why would it cut in the way it does?  It would start at the beginning.

[Bicyclerider]

Hey. The guy has the acetates has a question, and he'd like me to share it with you: What was supposed to come after Bicycle Rider? We all know that the Bridge to the Indians was likely going to connect us to Roll Plymouth Rock, and then Bicycle Rider rings out, but what was supposed to come after that.

In the Smiley Single, another verse rings out, but there not really in the same key... What other vocal ditties are there that could possibly connect us back to the second Heroes verse?

Here's the edit he made (not an actual vintage edit), and it only goes up to BR, and then back to the first verse as an example of what could've come next ala the Smiley Single, but there has to be something that could've connected us back to a possible second verse. Heres the vid, enough blab: vimeo.com/153429318

Bridge to Indians was a Heroes section not a Worms session, and would likely have led into Bicyclerider, not Roll Plymouth Rock.    if BR had become part of Heroes, what would come after?  We don't have any edits/mixes that would indicate what comes next except the Dec acetate of heroes that goes Great Shape/fast "my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five, the 3rd verse.  So if B R is replacing Shape, it is reasonable to think "children were raised" might come after, but since Brian was continually tinkering with the sections something might have come before it, like "Bag of Tricks" for example.

[Bosco82]

The alternate bridge vocal on worms has been out there for years. Its on the Vigatone SMiLE boot.

[seltaeb1012002]

The alternate bridge vocal on worms has been out there for years. Its on the Vigatone SMiLE boot.

Thanks for confirming. Had a feeling it wasn't new.

[Jay]

I just listened to the "DYLW 2" video, and I'm perplexed. The "Hawaiian chant" doesn't sound like Brian at all to me. More like Dennis with a cold. You can also hear the pedal steel part in the background. 

[Nile]

I just listened to the "DYLW 2" video, and I'm perplexed. The "Hawaiian chant" doesn't sound like Brian at all to me. More like Dennis with a cold. You can also hear the pedal steel part in the background. 

Right, that's not Brian! Listened to the Smile Vigotone 110 Smile boot and indeed there's this mix with Dennis? vocal...
Also on the same boot there's this BR/HV 1st verse acetate!

[Jay]

I just listened to the "DYLW 2" video, and I'm perplexed. The "Hawaiian chant" doesn't sound like Brian at all to me. More like Dennis with a cold. You can also hear the pedal steel part in the background. 

Right, that's not Brian! Listened to the Smile Vigotone 110 Smile boot and indeed there's this mix with Dennis? vocal...
Also on the same boot there's this BR/HV 1st verse acetate!

After listening to it a few times, it almost sounds like Dennis and Carl singing together.

[The Old Master Painter]

Ok, just to clarify, the first video I linked with BC preceding the verse is the only edit that might be vintage. All the rest are probably the dude's own fan edits. At least, that's what I think.

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, finally listened to the right (?) version. The "Hawaiian" chant bridge is almost certainly Dennis. It's also something I've heard before, many years ago... and when I can recall when & where, I'll surely tell you.

[The Old Master Painter]

OK, finally listened to the right (?) version. The "Hawaiian" chant bridge is almost certainly Dennis. It's also something I've heard before, many years ago... and when I can recall when & where, I'll surely tell you.

So do you think this acetate is legit? If so, it could reveal a key part in the construction of the song.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't believe what we're hearing on that link is entirely what was on the original acetate (the sound levels and audio quality vary way too much), nor do I believe that was the intended order. As I recall from "GS,HG", Brian used individual acetates to work out the permutations of the sections. As ever, I stand to be corrected

[Bicyclerider]

Ok, just to clarify, the first video I linked with BC preceding the verse is the only edit that might be vintage. All the rest are probably the dude's own fan edits. At least, that's what I think.

From the original description of the Durrie Parks acetates, acetate 2:

 Disc 2/ 1. 0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.) 2. Two versions of “Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider)” with alternate vocals to box set. 3. First 45 seconds of “Heroes and Villains”. Vocal sounds  different than commercial release

It's unclear why on many of the acetates there are mixes of sections of different songs on the one acetate - I guess they would be the result of a single mixing session that Brian wanted to review or play for someone else?  People who have heard the acetates claim that the "alternate" vocals are all found on bootleg releases, but without comparing them, who knows . . .

[TomWollaert]

Ok, just to clarify, the first video I linked with BC preceding the verse is the only edit that might be vintage. All the rest are probably the dude's own fan edits. At least, that's what I think.

This one? https://vimeo.com/155754389

That's just track 23 straight off the old Vigotone SMiLE vinyl. Bosco82 pointed out he heard the "acetate" bits on there, I decided to check and it sounds exact the same. Not just the same takes, but the same speed offset, same noise level, same bass boost in the right channel and treble boost in the left channel, everything in terms of sound quality is the same. No acetate here folks.