What if the Beach Boys had fired Mike Love?

[Emily]

I wonder if Dennis could have replaced Mike as the frontman? He seemed to be the only one with enough onstage personality to handle the duties of MC, engaging with the audience, etc; but he was also notoriously inconsistent, due mostly to his drug and alcohol problems. Carl sure came to appreciate what Mike did onstage after touring solo for most of 1981.

Wouldn't have been necessary to restrict themselves to the existing band members.

That might defeat the purpose.  A band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know.  And that knowledge bank makes them the most competent person to front the band.  It is not the same as being an MC for a group of speakers, at a dinner, who only needs a list of the persons and a thumbnail sketch of the CV of the individuals.  They know the material cold from the genesis to the recording and editing. It doesn't seem to lend itself to an "outsourced" hire. 

CD mentioned some Mike-less shows.  I've never seen one.  And I cannot imagine anyone able (as well as Mike) to maintain the momentum and be an active participant in the concerts.  Back in the day, when there were no guitar techs, the guys had to fix broken strings themselves, and it could tend to throw off the timing of the show, except Mike could find some thing to keep the attention of the audience, until the repair was made.  He grew in that job.   

Again, it's a matter of personal taste. I've always found Mike Love irritating as a front man and I don't enjoy his vocals or lyrics, so for me, he could be replaced by any number of people and I would find it an improvement. You wouldn't and that's fine with me.

[ontor pertawst]

A band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know.

In Mike's case, I wonder if that extends as far as being able to identify the chords.

Ontor - What does that mean?

Haven't you seen Youtubes of Mike at a keyboard?  

Or the theremin?

 

No, I haven't seen him at a theremin... altho it'd be real cool to see him wave his hands around and OOooOooOo OooOooooo.  I've seen old footage of him playing that tannerin gizmo that you play with a slide thingie with individual notes labled. It doesn't play chords. He wasn't really very good at it, which is presumably why he stopped dabbling in electronic music.

[filledeplage]

A band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know.

In Mike's case, I wonder if that extends as far as being able to identify the chords.

Ontor - What does that mean?

Haven't you seen Youtubes of Mike at a keyboard? 

Or the theremin?

 

No, I haven't seen him at a theremin. I've seen him play that tannerin gizmo that you play with a slide with individual notes labled. It doesn't play chords.

What is the issue with the chords?  I don't get what you're driving at.  Whatever that tannerin (gizmo?) seen on a Wild Honey Video in a park in the UK with Blondie on lead, does not resemble the device he was playing in 1967.  Whatever the "gizmo"  was - did the job.

There is a really fuzzy youtube where Mike is on a keyboard playing across from Brian likely mid to late 1970's.   

[ontor pertawst]

Pretty obvious what I meant, you said a band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know. I just wondered if that meant he could identify all them fancy chords BW used in those songs, then.

[filledeplage]

Pretty obvious what I meant, you said a band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know. I just wondered if that meant he could identify all them fancy chords BW used in those songs, then.

Not really.  Should Mike be telling the audience what key the song is in, too?  By "backstories" I meant the "concepts" for them.

There is a different Youtube entitled The Beach Boys in the studio 1980 where Mike is reading from some kind notation sheet/chart.  And Brian is at the piano.  The song is "Goin'  to the Beach."

It doesn't look like Brief forms from a secretary/stenographer.  (that is a joke.)

[ontor pertawst]

I guess we just disagree. Seems to me the intoxicating harmonies and gorgeous chord structures are vastly more important to why we still adore these songs than the nebulous "concepts." If a song about vinegar and baking soda volcanoes was wrapped in "I Get Around," people woulda still gone apeshit over it.

I take it all back if Mike Love takes up the theremin, tho.

[filledeplage]

Pretty obvious what I meant, you said a band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know. I just wondered if that meant he could identify all them fancy chords BW used in those songs, then.

Not really.  Should Mike be telling the audience what key the song is in, too?  By "backstories" I meant the "concepts" for them.

There is a different Youtube entitled The Beach Boys in the studio 1980 where Mike is reading from some kind notation sheet/chart.  And Brian is at the piano.  The song is "Goin'  to the Beach."

It doesn't look like Brief forms from a secretary/stenographer.  (that is a joke.)

The video I was looking for...1978


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6jEGj5bLOM

Hope it opens...

[ontor pertawst]

I want to see more of that footage in better quality, such a strange period in their history.

I think my favorite buried clue to the secret musical gifts of Mike Love is still where is hand rests on this little beauty:



His strutting style is perfect for "Little Honda," but ultimately maybe parting ways after Pet Sounds would've been the way to go other than occasional charity gigs and an 80s reunion. In this alternate universe version of The Beach Boys... John Stamos still would've been involved somehow. BECAUSE. Kokomo is still ultimately, unavoidable.

[SMiLE Brian]

Ontor knows!

[filledeplage]

I want to see more of that footage in better quality, such a strange period in their history.

I think my favorite buried clue to the secret musical gifts of Mike Love is still where is hand rests on this little beauty:



His strutting style is perfect for "Little Honda," but ultimately maybe parting ways after Pet Sounds would've been the way to go other than occasional charity gigs and an 80s reunion. In this alternate universe version of The Beach Boys... John Stamos still would've been involved somehow. BECAUSE. Kokomo is still ultimately, unavoidable.

Let's not change the subject.  You alleged a non-knowledge of chords.  I found that bad quality youtube.  So, you might acknowledge and show your good manners.  I know they are there. 

If you can find better quality, I'd like to see it.  And not contorted into a "parody."

[ontor pertawst]

Well, I don't really see that video as proof that he knows the fancy jazz chords BW was using in his tracks. Sorry, we just disagree.  I bet he does a killer "Heart and Soul."

[filledeplage]

Well, I don't really see that video as proof that he knows the fancy jazz chords BW was using in his tracks. Sorry, we just disagree.  I bet he does a killer "Heart and Soul."

That wasn't the point of searching for it.  It was to support that Mike is musically literate.  We don't know much from that poor quality tape, except that Mike is capable of playing a keyboard, and you alleged that he didn't know chords. 

Clearly, he can play a keyboard at some kind of a recording session.

If you don't like Mike, fine.  Just say so.  It saves time. 

No one needs to be continuously attacked without merit.  That is just bad faith. 

[ontor pertawst]

 It's ok, he's still a Beach Boy and the licensed franchise holder of "The Beach Boys." His legacy is undiminished. I just don't think he's much of an instrumentalist judging by his tannerin playing and some grainy VHS. He's done more than alright for himself regardless! BW had the grasp of harmony drilled into him by all that Four Freshmen obsession and breaking the chords down on the piano and teaching the individual lines to his family. Mike learned his part of the chord but never really got the whole thing or had that ability to arrange voices despite a recent attempt at claiming a co-arranging credit. Sure, he picked up some fun doo wop riffs and can re-purpose somebody else's melodies effectively but nothing in his work post-BW shows that much talent for harmony or composing melodies/chord structures. But he can hold his baseball cap up high and say: "my voice is my instrument."

Then process the sh*t out of it. Point is: he can be Mike Love. You don't have to pretend he's Brian Wilson at the same time.

[filledeplage]

It's ok, he's still a Beach Boy and the licensed franchise holder of "The Beach Boys." His legacy is undiminished. I just don't think he's much of an instrumentalist judging by his tannerin playing and some grainy VHS. He's done more than alright for himself regardless! BW had the grasp of harmony drilled into him by all that Four Freshmen obsession and breaking the chords down on the piano and teaching the individual lines to his family. Mike learned his part of the chord but never really got the whole thing or had that ability to arrange voices despite a recent attempt at claiming a co-arranging credit. Sure, he picked up some fun doo wop riffs and can re-purpose somebody else's melodies effectively but nothing in his work post-BW shows that much talent for harmony or composing melodies/chord structures. But he can hold his baseball cap up high and say: "my voice is my instrument."

Then process the sh*t out of it.

Ontor - that isn't the point.  Disparaging the video is of no consequence.  It isn't in high def.  But, it is clearly a rebuttal of the myth that Mike is incapable of playing any instrument.  He isn't a concert pianist.  He doesn't need to be.  What he was clear about, is that Brian used each "voice as an instrument."  That is a tribute to Brian and is not news. 

Mike is not disrespecting him.  That video looked as though there was a very affable relationship as between Brian and Mike.  Does that bother you that they appear to be having a really good time?   

And we aren't talking about "processing" and I assume you mean autotune.  Maybe I am wrong. Technically, I am not up to speed on autotune use.   The only "autotune" that I did not care for was the C50.  And,  I have not listened to the new song.

As for claiming credit, I don't know what song/s you are talking about.  And, absent being a witness to the creative process and outcome, I cannot speak to that.     

[bonnie bella]

Without Mikey, this website would take up half the room it actually does in cyber land...

[TOKENSURFER]

Before I start, the house which I've lived in for 22 yrs and the only rooming house left in downtown Vancouver BC is being torn down sometime in january.  we'll be evicted at the end of december  . the 90 yr old house will be replaced by a hi-rise and I will be out of a job as property manager. Not something to look forward to in the coming New YEar. 
So i look forward to this distraction of Mike Love bashing. And I'm Taking off the gloves Andrew G Doe. nothing personal Andrew I just don't hold you  as high on the BB pedestal as so many have  as the ultimate authority on the BB.  this is not necessarily a contest to see who knows more about the BB. this is more a personal opinion about Mike Love which we are all entitled to have.   and Smile Brian is right,  it's a trap that i"m willing to tackle and i'll  bet  that you're right,  it probably won't end well. But here goes anyway.
MR Doe has deemed Lonely Summer's attack on Mike LOve worthless, therefore it is written and must be so.  that in itself is not an opinion on Mike Love but an attack on Lonely Summer. I would like to keep it focused on Mike Love rather than attacking each other. though I must admit self restraint Is not my strong suit.
But I would like to examine the veracity of the facts and  Lonely Summer's opinion .  Mikey is balding that's a fact, whether he's a dork or not is an opinion I also happen to share. Unfortunately I disagree with Mikey singing bad, It pains me to say that yes he is a competent showman on stage and knows how to play up to the crowd or suck up  to the crowd is more like it, and  he is a competent vocalist. And for those who know me like Lee Dempsey, Peter Reum, Danny Rutherford, etc... that's quite an admission from myself. I must be getting soft in my old age or soft in the head as some of you may suggest.  Lonely Summer see what you have done,  you Have me defending Mikey sorta.
Let's tackle the elephant in the room shall we. That Mikey's current BB group is the biggest fraud.
On the surface that seems like a  baseless attack on Mikey's right to capitalise on Brian's talent  and use Brian's music on stage to make money.  Every US citizen has a right to take advantage of someone else's work and claim it as their own. While I've overstated that claim slightly. Mikey has received writing credits for songs  that Brian worked so tirelessly on, then Mikey would prance in and suggest a line or two , and be responsible for turning a MOR song with his own hook line and turning that single into gold. You gotta have that hook  Brian  to make it sound commercial .  Such sound advice Mikey. So that's why Mikey's helpful interference, er, I mean suggestions and one line hookers gives him the right to go on stage and call themselves the Beach Boys with Pride. and just to back up Mike's contribution with proof, here's a classic line that Mikey claims he contributed to in Help me, Rhonda  something about " doing it out in my head". And Mikey has the unmitigated gall to criticise  Van dyke Parks lyrics.  I'm  sure Mikey's supporters can explain that lyric considering they know what Mikey's all about.
 Now let's examine who is in the group shall we.  Bruce Johnston but he was never a BB to begin with and he was never an official member of the BB and had no legal say in the inner workings of the group. And i would never ever claim Bruce as a BB anyway,he just rubs me the wrong way,  as i'm sure I do as well.  but that's just my opinion, it's not a fact. Although it's a fact I said it.
As for Kokomo i dislike it immensely  and just because it made # 1  does not mean  it's as good as Good Vibrations.  if you like Kokomo so be it but please don't put it in the same sentence as Wouldn't it be Nice or the Lonely Sea, etc...  But i will take exception with Lonely Summer on HCTN the disco version.  I really should not admit this to you guys cuz i'll never hear the end of it.  But i do have a fondness for this disco version and yes I know Bruce  or B J as i call him was responsible for this version.  I must explain why I have an affinity for this nostalgic tune.  it was April '79 when i walked into a gay disco bar in Denver  waiting to do my Travolta imitation . when I heard this remake of HCTN  which I never heard before.  I said to myself is this possible the BB are doing it?  I t sure sounds like 'em. I confirmed it with the DJ and then preceded to dance by myself,  as no one else was around to dance to it at 9:30.  I was dying to hear anything by the BB after It's OK back in '76. It was a 2 12 yr drought and You better believe I embraced it and dance to it to my heart's content.  I was literally starved for anything by the BB so I did my Travolta imitation  sorta.  So it's more nostalgic fondness and the fact i hadn't heard a BB single for so long. I hope i can be forgiven for my weakness which is still my love for the  Beach Boys.   So if you want to make fun of me liking HCTN  have at it.    it depends on how you do it. Bullying is not the way to go. We can have opinions and share them but when it comes to Mike Love, it can be a very divisive issue and there does not seem to be a middle for Mikey either you support him or you don't.  I can not ANd if you watched that movie recently it showed how divisive Mike was within the group and the pressure he put on Brian. I mean i knew all that in writing but to see it played out in the movie made it more real somehow and brought into focus.  Porky Pig's sign off,  that's all folks
 

[Andrew G. Doe]

lt is worthless, because it states an opinion as fact ("it has been established..." - by who, exactly ?), not to mention implying that Mike was in some way responsible for the demise of Dennis ("and best of all, Dennis would still be alive": it was, of course, entirely his own doing). Hence the comment.

As for being the ultimate authority on The Beach Boys, well that's just rampant nonsense. Just a fan with a criminally retentive mind and a short fuse for idiots.  

BTW, Mike didn't suddenly decide to call his band The Beach Boys purely to piss off a certain sector of the fans. Proper legal process.

But far more importantly, l sympathise with your imminent plight, truly. Been there myself.

[Emily]

Sorry about your house tokensurfer. That really sucks.

[filledeplage]

Sorry about your house tokensurfer. That really sucks.

Yes, it does.

[Lonely Summer]

My intention in starting this thread was to play devil's advocate. I have read thread after thread about the evil that is Mike Love - and opinion I did not agree with, although he has certainly done some things I was not pleased with. I'm not exactly thrilled that there is a group still touring as The Beach Boys (as opposed to Mike Love's Beach Boys, or the Endless Summer Beach Band), but he has gone through the proper legal channels to do so. And in a way, it's an honest advertisement for what kind of music us punters are going to hear at the concerts. Mike and his band are out there to play the greatest hits of the Beach Boys, not highlights from Looking Back with Love and Rock 'N' Roll City. On the flip side, it's always disappointed me that a Brian Wilson solo concert features very little of his solo stuff - like Mike, he plays all the big hits - Help Me Rhonda, Good Vibrations, Fun Fun Fun, Barbara Ann. In terms of the music presented, Brian's show is as much a BB's show as Mike's is. But I don't hate any of these guys. Yes, it is urban legend that Mike hated PS and SMiLe, but Dr. Love didn't seem to resist the direction the band took with SS, Friends, Surf's Up, Holland, etc. When Carl wanted to do a few of his solo songs in the shows circa 1983-84, ML didn't say "F---- that! We only do fun in the sun tunes recorded in the 1960!" ML had a pretty good sense of various things the band could do to keep themselves in the spotlight, even when the records weren't selling - July 4th concerts, tv appearances, getting their songs into movies. Maybe the band would have faded away even earlier than they did if not for the aggressive efforts of Love.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Okay, it's been established that Mike Love has done more to bring down the Beach Boys name than any person in history, he's a hairless dork who sings bad, can't play an instrument, and thinks John Stamos is the definition of cool (as opposed to Dennis Wilson). He's the leader of the biggest fraud in rock history, that being the group he currently leads as "the Beach Boys". He lead them off the path of the cool and hip to the trail of nostalgia and Kokomo. So why didn't the other BB's just fire the sob? Imagine how much more respect the band would have today if Carl and Dennis had taken over the band in 1977. They probably would have fired Al, too, for being "clean Jardine", but brought him back later when they realized how much they missed his singing. They could have spared us the embarrassment of HCTN disco, Full House appearances, SIP, and best of all, Dennis would still be alive. Instead of touring every summer, they'd only go out once every 3 or 4 years as the Stones do. Brian could join them if he felt like it, but he would be focused primarily on making new music for them. Mike could tour Sea World and other theme parks, county fairs, bars and bakeries all year 'round, but only as "Mike Love's Endless Summer Band" or "Looking Back with Mike Love's Beach Band".

If Mike Love were never a Beach Boy, I don't think they would have ever had the success they had. Without his lyrics in the early days, they may not have been as accessable as they became. Without Mike, there would be no Let the Wind Blow, All I Wanna Do or Big Sur. Without Mike Love there would be no one in a white robe and long beard dancing around and playing the tamborine. Without Mike Love, the rock n roll hall of fame would have been boring. And most of all, without Mike Love, over half the posts on this board would never have been made (probably, I haven't counted). Even rock n roll needs a good heal (using wrestling terms). He is one of the best heals in the music business. 

[ontor pertawst]

Great point! Definitely a heel.



Gorgeous George / Mike Love Diptych, 2015. Mixed Media on Monitor.

[Lonely Summer]

Okay, it's been established that Mike Love has done more to bring down the Beach Boys name than any person in history, he's a hairless dork who sings bad, can't play an instrument, and thinks John Stamos is the definition of cool (as opposed to Dennis Wilson). He's the leader of the biggest fraud in rock history, that being the group he currently leads as "the Beach Boys". He lead them off the path of the cool and hip to the trail of nostalgia and Kokomo. So why didn't the other BB's just fire the sob? Imagine how much more respect the band would have today if Carl and Dennis had taken over the band in 1977. They probably would have fired Al, too, for being "clean Jardine", but brought him back later when they realized how much they missed his singing. They could have spared us the embarrassment of HCTN disco, Full House appearances, SIP, and best of all, Dennis would still be alive. Instead of touring every summer, they'd only go out once every 3 or 4 years as the Stones do. Brian could join them if he felt like it, but he would be focused primarily on making new music for them. Mike could tour Sea World and other theme parks, county fairs, bars and bakeries all year 'round, but only as "Mike Love's Endless Summer Band" or "Looking Back with Mike Love's Beach Band".

If Mike Love were never a Beach Boy, I don't think they would have ever had the success they had. Without his lyrics in the early days, they may not have been as accessable as they became. Without Mike, there would be no Let the Wind Blow, All I Wanna Do or Big Sur. Without Mike Love there would be no one in a white robe and long beard dancing around and playing the tamborine. Without Mike Love, the rock n roll hall of fame would have been boring. And most of all, without Mike Love, over half the posts on this board would never have been made (probably, I haven't counted). Even rock n roll needs a good heal (using wrestling terms). He is one of the best heals in the music business. 

Well, if Dennis had been around in 1988, he would have rocked the HOF with some colorful behavior - standing on Brian's piano shouting "Elton John, eat your heart out!" or making a pass at Mick Jagger's 15 year old daughter. But we would have been spared the potshots at McCartney and Ms. Ross.

[Lee Marshall]

If Mike Love were never a Beach Boy, I don't think they would have ever had the success they had. Without his lyrics in the early days, they may not have been as accessable as they became. Without Mike, there would be no Let the Wind Blow, All I Wanna Do or Big Sur.

I certainly agree with THIS part of your post.  And in all seriousness...dating back to the ying and yang days when it was almost ALL either Brian or Mike...[like the first 3 foundational years of REAL success 63-65]...we long time fans likely wouldn't BE HERE AT ALL if it weren't for the 2 of them and the options they provided...both singularly and then collectively.  The Beach Boys were balanced by Brian on one side and Mike on the other.  Carl, Dennis, Al and David [and a touch of Glen] completed the picture and made it a rich and full view.  It was something we 'saw' with our ears.

Really?  Back then when Mike began wearing the various hats [some cool/some 110% 'dorkish'] I just felt bad for his having to deal with the advent of 'goin' bald'.  And in the flowing robes, beard and hair days he looked fine w/o the hat.  No justifying the Hall of Fame fiasco.  But we've almost all been under the influence of something SOMEWHERE where we've made an ASS of ourselves...right?  Right.

Mickey Mouse with a sore throat?  Nose on the critical list?  The boys realized some perceptions and realities long before we started taking sides...and swipes.  THEY made light of it.

And WE?  Collectively WE have this thread.  Oh how outstanding it is to be an expert. 

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

I wonder if Dennis could have replaced Mike as the frontman? He seemed to be the only one with enough onstage personality to handle the duties of MC, engaging with the audience, etc; but he was also notoriously inconsistent, due mostly to his drug and alcohol problems. Carl sure came to appreciate what Mike did onstage after touring solo for most of 1981.

Wouldn't have been necessary to restrict themselves to the existing band members.

That might defeat the purpose.  A band member who was a co-author knows the backstories of the music in a way that an outside person could not possibly know.  And that knowledge bank makes them the most competent person to front the band.  It is not the same as being an MC for a group of speakers, at a dinner, who only needs a list of the persons and a thumbnail sketch of the CV of the individuals.  They know the material cold from the genesis to the recording and editing. It doesn't seem to lend itself to an "outsourced" hire. 

CD mentioned some Mike-less shows.  I've never seen one.  And I cannot imagine anyone able (as well as Mike) to maintain the momentum and be an active participant in the concerts.  Back in the day, when there were no guitar techs, the guys had to fix broken strings themselves, and it could tend to throw off the timing of the show, except Mike could find some thing to keep the attention of the audience, until the repair was made.  He grew in that job.   

Again, it's a matter of personal taste. I've always found Mike Love irritating as a front man and I don't enjoy his vocals or lyrics, so for me, he could be replaced by any number of people and I would find it an improvement. You wouldn't and that's fine with me.

Exactly! myKe luHv always brought an air of having a "carnival barker" in the group which in turn lessened them being taken seriously as a live act.