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Author Topic: Who are the musicians on Sunflower and Surfs Up?  (Read 5305 times)
Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2015, 07:57:54 AM »

Would LOVE to hear some of the Sunflower session tapes....
COMMENT:   Try listening to Cool, Cool Water at http://swdstudyvideos.com ~swd
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silodweller
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2015, 11:06:14 AM »

Ah, Carmen Dragon also composed the music for one of my favourite 50s sci-fi films "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...  I just never put two and two together until you mentioned his name, Stephen! 
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phirnis
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2015, 11:19:28 AM »

A "wild country-rock excursion", that sounds very intriguing! Thanks for sharing. Do you happen to know who produced the original session(s) and who decided to change things with regards to mixing and making overdubs?
COMMENT:  No one is a "session producer," as such, handing that position over to someone else after the musicians have gone home. The decision to change the direction of the song would be made by the song's producer. In the case of This Whole World, Carl ultimately, because during the time this song evolved from Brian's basic session to what it became, Brian's illness prevented him from continuing. In the interest of survival Carl continued with the song. In some cases not being able to know from Brian or figure out his plans, a track or set of tracks (I guess that is what is meant by "session tapes") may be modified to accommodate the new direction the song is/has taken.  ~swd

At http://swdstudyvideos.com you will find more details.

Fascinating stuff, thanks a lot for sharing your insights! From your memory, is it possible to say which Sunflower song Brian was most actively involved in with regards to the actual finishing stages of production and mixing? I find his role in the making of this album very fascinating and the other guys were obviously brilliant at finishing some of his ideas (as well as bringing in their own material, of course).
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chaki
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2015, 12:24:31 PM »

Would LOVE to hear some of the Sunflower session tapes....
COMMENT:   Try listening to Cool, Cool Water at http://swdstudyvideos.com ~swd

just got to the brian diddy party and got chills.

and now im pissed carl buried it!
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2015, 01:05:09 PM »

A "wild country-rock excursion", that sounds very intriguing! Thanks for sharing. Do you happen to know who produced the original session(s) and who decided to change things with regards to mixing and making overdubs?
COMMENT:  No one is a "session producer," as such, handing that position over to someone else after the musicians have gone home. The decision to change the direction of the song would be made by the song's producer. In the case of This Whole World, Carl ultimately, because during the time this song evolved from Brian's basic session to what it became, Brian's illness prevented him from continuing. In the interest of survival Carl continued with the song. In some cases not being able to know from Brian or figure out his plans, a track or set of tracks (I guess that is what is meant by "session tapes") may be modified to accommodate the new direction the song is/has taken.  ~swd



At http://swdstudyvideos.com you will find more details.

Fascinating stuff, thanks a lot for sharing your insights! From your memory, is it possible to say which Sunflower song Brian was most actively involved in with regards to the actual finishing stages of production and mixing? I find his role in the making of this album very fascinating and the other guys were obviously brilliant at finishing some of his ideas (as well as bringing in their own material, of course).

COMMENT:   You will find more details at http://swdstudyvideos.com and click on Book-part one. ~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2015, 01:24:17 PM »

Ah, Carmen Dragon also composed the music for one of my favorite 50s sci-fi films "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...  I just never put two and two together until you mentioned his name, Stephen! 
  COMMENT to silodweller:

You may be interested to know that a new CD of the "Invasion" sound track is available - only 2000 copies made.

Limited Edition >>> http://www.lalalandrecords.com/Site/IOTBS.html

The samples sound clean and clear, good dynamics for that era, mono of course.


~swd
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c-man
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2015, 02:06:38 PM »

Info taken from Recording The Beach Boys by Stephen W. Desper (2002)

Sunflower

Slip On Through:
Drums - Dennis Dragon
Guitar - Dennis Wilson

This Whole World:
Tubular bells - Daryl Dragon
Harpsichord - Daryl Dragon
Guitar - Carl Wilson

Add Some Music To Your Day:
Piano - Brian Wilson
Bass - Brian Wilson

Got To Know The Woman:
Tack piano - Dennis Wilson
Piano - Daryl Dragon
Bass - Carl Wilson

Deirdre:
Vibraphone - Daryl Dragon

It's About Time:
Guitar - Alan Jardine & Carl Wilson

Tears In The Morning:
Vibraphone - Daryl Dragon

All I Wanna Do:
Moog - SWD

Our Sweet Love:
Cello - Igor Horoshevsky

Cool, Cool Water:
Piano - Daryl Dragon
Moog - SWD
Moog - Brian Wilson
Bongo - Dennis Wilson

Surf'S Up

Don't Go Near The Water:
Guitar - Alan Jardine
Guitar - Daryl Dragon
Banjo - Alan Jardine
Moog - Daryl Dragon
Snare - Dennis Wilson
Tambourine - Carl Wilson

Long Promised Road:
Snare - Dennis Wilson
Guitar - Carl Wilson
Keys - Carl Wilson

Take A Load Off Your Feet:
Tambourine - Brian Wilson

Student Demonstration Time:
Drums - Dennis Wilson
Bass - Daryl Dragon
Guitars - Carl Wilson
Tambourine - Mike Love

Feel Flows:
Baldwin organ - Brian Wilson
Flute - Charles Lloyd
Fuzz guitar - Carl Wilson
Saxophone - Charles Lloyd
Piano - Brian Wilson
Moog - SWD

Looking At Tomorrow:
Guitars - Alan Jardine

A Day In The Life Of A Tree:
Harmonium - Brian Wilson
Pipe organ - Daryl Dragon

'Til I Die:
Hammond organ - Brian Wilson
Vibraphone - Daryl Dragon
Moog - SWD





Stephen - one thing I'm hoping you can clarify about the credits quoted from your book above: in your book, you wrote "DW snare" in relation to "Don't Go Near The Water" and "Long Promised Road". Did you mean "DW" as in "Dennis Wilson", or as in "Drum Workshop" (the brand that eventually bought out Camco Drums)? I know you published your book in 2002, but I'm hoping you remember.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 02:23:15 PM by c-man » Logged
Smilin Ed H
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2015, 02:20:16 PM »

Holy crap thanks, you guys! This is amazing! Dennis Dragon who started the Surf Punks?!?! Mind blown. I was just watching them on New Wave Theater!!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1QYLMkch-E

http://fridaynightboys300.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/daryl-dragon-cat-in-hat.html
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2015, 04:56:21 PM »



Stephen - one thing I'm hoping you can clarify about the credits quoted from your book above: in your book, you wrote "DW snare" in relation to "Don't Go Near The Water" and "Long Promised Road". Did you mean "DW" as in "Dennis Wilson", or as in "Drum Workshop" (the brand that eventually bought out Camco Drums)? I know you published your book in 2002, but I'm hoping you remember.

COMMENT: The notation DW Snare refers to a particular Drum Workshop snare owned and treasured by Dennis Wilson. Dennis could adapt to most any drum kit, but he liked his DW snare and moved it to the kit he was playing were possible. He owned several snares, as many drummers do, but this was his special favorite to play. It traveled with him during several tours and was the responsibility of the stage manager. It was known to be worth several thousand dollars. We all looked after it. Some sessions would just happen without much planning. DW's DW snare may not be used. But if it was used, it was noted. ~swd
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 05:05:11 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2015, 12:03:27 AM »

Well, rats.  Grin
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silodweller
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2015, 12:18:43 AM »

Ah, Carmen Dragon also composed the music for one of my favorite 50s sci-fi films "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...  I just never put two and two together until you mentioned his name, Stephen!  
 COMMENT to silodweller:

You may be interested to know that a new CD of the "Invasion" sound track is available - only 2000 copies made.

Limited Edition >>> http://www.lalalandrecords.com/Site/IOTBS.html

The samples sound clean and clear, good dynamics for that era, mono of course.


~swd

Thanks for the heads up, Stephen.  I actually came across an article about the soundtrack a few weeks ago.  The samples sound great.  Still some copies available so I will be going for that. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 12:29:38 AM by silodweller » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2015, 12:34:01 PM »

You see, it's threads like these that make this board worth all the negativity and childish fighting. Many millions of thanks to Mr Desper, c-man, AGD, Ian, Mr Stebbins, and all who go to great lengths and pains to get all these fine details properly documented.  Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2015, 08:29:31 PM »

This probably isn't all that helpful but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jerry Cole was one of the guitarists on "This Whole World."

Jerry Cole, yes.  AFM sheet and you can hear his voice on the session.  David Cohen is the other guitarist.

David Cohen did the country-flavored lead work, right?

When I had the opportunity to hear the session tapes in full, while researching the sessionography for the "Made in California" box set, I came to the conclusion that the "lead" guitar on the basic track was Jerry Cole (I noted that this is the guitarist whose voice is heard between takes), while the "rhythm" guitar was David Cohen. I put quotation marks around "lead" and "rhythm" just now, because on the basic track, the "rhythm" guitar combines with the official "lead" guitar at certain points, for a two-lead approach. Here is an excerpt from the commentary I prepared on that part:

"On the basic track, the guitars of David Cohen and Jerry Cole were originally quite dominant, Cohen initially playing chunky rhythm chords while Cole played big, bodacious country-rock licks, after which the two of them came together for a dual lead riff in the B-section."

The next section I wrote speaks to Mr. Desper's commentary on how parts from original tracking dates are sometimes later replaced, in whole or in part, or simply mixed down or out of the final production:

"However, it appears Cole's guitar was completely muted in the final mix in favor of Carl's more subtle overdubbed 12-string, while Cohen's guitar was left intact during the A-section but silenced in the B-section. A drum break toward the end of the final take was edited out, and the entire track was then pared down from 2:25 to just under two minutes."

In other words, the original track was a pretty wild country-rock excursion that was later shaped into something more "Beach Boy"-like!


I disagree with this analysis to some extent.  I don't recall there being any sort of guitar overdub?  I hear the original 2 guitars on there just fine...both very much lower in the mix, but there throughout. 

I also tend to think it's Jerry Cole playing the rhythm guitar and David Cohen playing the lead.  One because Jerry seems to be doing the count off and that guitar is the first thing that plays (although to be fair I don't have a lot of examples of this voice), and two because Cohen was kind of a country-folk specialist.
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2015, 10:18:44 PM »

Maybe you're right, Josh, but from my notes, whoever's voice was heard from the studio floor between takes was coming from the direction of the "lead" guitar, while the "rhythm" guitar was panned opposite. To me, it sounded like Jerry's voice. As for what remains and what was added - I just listened to the "Sunflower" mix through headphones, and I hear none of the country-tinged double-stops, bends, or fast, aggressive finger-picking mentioned in my notes (almost "psychobilly" is how I'd described it). But on the final record I do hear what I think is a 12-string chiming away at a couple of places like 0:31 and 1:13 - that definitely was not on the basic track, and it's there in place of what was.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 09:34:05 AM by c-man » Logged
chaki
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« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2015, 01:08:25 PM »

i would fucking kill to hear these session tapes!
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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2015, 09:43:53 AM »

Maybe you're right, Josh, but from my notes, whoever's voice was heard from the studio floor between takes was coming from the direction of the "lead" guitar, while the "rhythm" guitar was panned opposite. To me, it sounded like Jerry's voice. As for what remains and what was added - I just listened to the "Sunflower" mix through headphones, and I hear none of the country-tinged double-stops, bends, or fast, aggressive finger-picking mentioned in my notes (almost "psychobilly" is how I'd described it). But on the final record I do hear what I think is a 12-string chiming away at a couple of places like 0:31 and 1:13 - that definitely was not on the basic track, and it's there in place of what was.

Granted, I only worked with him briefly, but C-Man's characterization of the session makes it sound like he has Jerry ID'd correctly.  It matches his personality and playing.
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c-man
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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2015, 11:05:20 AM »

Maybe you're right, Josh, but from my notes, whoever's voice was heard from the studio floor between takes was coming from the direction of the "lead" guitar, while the "rhythm" guitar was panned opposite. To me, it sounded like Jerry's voice. As for what remains and what was added - I just listened to the "Sunflower" mix through headphones, and I hear none of the country-tinged double-stops, bends, or fast, aggressive finger-picking mentioned in my notes (almost "psychobilly" is how I'd described it). But on the final record I do hear what I think is a 12-string chiming away at a couple of places like 0:31 and 1:13 - that definitely was not on the basic track, and it's there in place of what was.

Granted, I only worked with him briefly, but C-Man's characterization of the session makes it sound like he has Jerry ID'd correctly.  It matches his personality and playing.

Although - I'm now thinking maybe it actually WAS David Cohen on the aggessive country-style part...while googling him, I came across this "Telecaster B-Bender Roll Call" website: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/b-bender-forum/25536-bender-player-roll-call-request-2.html
And, from my notes, there were definitely pedal style-like licks being played by that lead guitar on TWW...which could not easily be done on a standard electric 6-string, unless of course one had a B-bender attached. THEN, I came across THIS, from almost four-and-a-half years ago
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=10138.0

And so I rechecked my scrupulous, voluminous notes, and discovered that there WAS a point on the tape where Brian addresses "David" on the session, and asks him to modify those licks slightly - and this was definitely the main "lead" guitar, not the rhythm/lead combo. So it looks like Josh is right! However, the voice that responded (David's) was not the same as the other voice talking at various points in the session (Jerry's).

Also, a note on John "Jack" Conrad (one of the two bass players on the session): he played not only here, but also on the Boys' late '69 tour of the midwest and Canada, and per Mr. Desper's "Sunflower" study addendum, played one of the two guitars on "Slip On Through", so he wasn't hired just for "This Whole World". He went on to play in the post-Jim Morrison era Doors!

« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:18:08 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2015, 01:52:26 PM »

This probably isn't all that helpful but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jerry Cole was one of the guitarists on "This Whole World."

Jerry Cole, yes.  AFM sheet and you can hear his voice on the session.  David Cohen is the other guitarist.

David Cohen did the country-flavored lead work, right?

Thought so.  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2015, 03:59:09 AM »

Ah, Carmen Dragon also composed the music for one of my favorite 50s sci-fi films "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...  I just never put two and two together until you mentioned his name, Stephen!  
 COMMENT to silodweller:

You may be interested to know that a new CD of the "Invasion" sound track is available - only 2000 copies made.

Limited Edition >>> http://www.lalalandrecords.com/Site/IOTBS.html

The samples sound clean and clear, good dynamics for that era, mono of course.


~swd

Thanks for the heads up, Stephen.  I actually came across an article about the soundtrack a few weeks ago.  The samples sound great.  Still some copies available so I will be going for that. 

I've managed to pick up a copy of this release and it really is clear, clean and with great dynamics!  I love these mono releases.  The guys there have a done a sterling job with this release of such a great score.  Sorry to go off the topic of The Beach Boys here...  Just thought I had to rave about it.
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