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Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Topic: Summer in Paradise Recalled (Read 49707 times)
clack
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #200 on:
August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.
Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.
But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.
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CenturyDeprived
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #201 on:
August 29, 2015, 09:02:08 PM »
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.
Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.
But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.
I'm anything but convinced that if Al had readily offered a song, that he could have just gotten the song on SIP. He barely got to even sing on the album as a form of punishment.
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Phoenix
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #202 on:
August 29, 2015, 09:30:06 PM »
I've been posting more on here lately thanks to two things: I recently lost my very time consuming job, which enabled me to finally rebuild my digital Beach Boys catalog. As I began organizing everything again, I had some questions and posted them to the board and while I was really bummed out no one had anything to even say about any of them, beyond Andrew and a few others commenting on the original version of "Come Go With Me", that didn't sting nearly as much as then seeing this thread on the band's most infamous, if not outright worst album explode beyond 200 replies in just a couple days.
But since we're on the topic (tho by now, just barely still), I figured I'd toss the questions related to this one out here. Any ideas?
Summer In Paradise
: I know it's probably been answered before but why we're the "UK tracks" rerecorded? Was the idea to improve them or did they think the alternate versions would appeal to those on the other side of the pond?? Who was behind the idea?
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DonnyL
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #203 on:
August 29, 2015, 10:15:20 PM »
Quote from: Andy Botwin on August 28, 2015, 06:27:16 AM
SIP is bad, poorly recorded music by people who, at one time, made excellnt, well-recorded music. The fact that Terry Melcher doesn't get Joe Thomas-ed is proof that this is Kokomaoist Central.
Nah, the reason people don't compare the two producers is that Joe Thomas seems to ruin things that might be great with a different production/sound ... Whereas Summer in Paradise would probably have been just as awful no matter how you slice it.
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phirnis
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #204 on:
August 29, 2015, 10:51:05 PM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: phirnis on August 29, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
By the way, Summer of Love was three years old when it appeared on the show, right? Why did they use an old song from an album that was their biggest commercial failure ever?
I would assume in part it was an awkward attempt for Mike to try to get the song, from a project that had been such a sales failure, to finally get some traction; a desperate move to prove that Kokomo wasn't a fluke (I say desperate since SIP didn't just sink and go away, but it kept coming back in different regurgitated forms, with no success at any point). I can't imagine that any of the Boys believed in the song as much as Mike, nor did any of them stand to feel as ego-wounded by its failure as Mike did. It's like "It's gonna be a hit one way or another, dammmit!", yet this obviously did not pan out as planned, for SIP or SOL, no matter how much re-recording, remixing, or TV show tie-ins were repeatedly attempted.
Not many artists would try not once, but twice after the initial release, to try and push the same product that had severely flopped both commercially and critically. It's like everyone got the memo that SOL blew chunks and should just go away - except Mike. Yet after 1995, SOL might as well have never existed in the band's canon, if one were to see how many times it every got mentioned by them again. Post-1995, I guess Mike must've gotten the memo.
Was SOL only used after the band nixed recording that new song they tried recording for the show (but then abandoned)? Was it the 2nd choice?
I seriously hope it was only their 2nd choice... I mean, you get these guys on one of the most successful TV shows of the 90s and instead of bothering to write and produce just one (!) new song (or even just rework something from the vaults) they give the producers what many consider to be their worst song ever, taken from an old album that was an outright embarrassment both in terms of sales and reviews? It's pretty incredible either way I guess...
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Cam Mott
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #205 on:
August 30, 2015, 04:58:41 AM »
Quote from: guitarfool2002 on August 29, 2015, 10:49:21 AM
So what would you say was the main reason behind Kokomo's success? Or what would you credit for that song's success that you might also blame if possible for SIP/SOL failing when similar components were involved in making and selling those as were behind Kokomo? Only difference in theory would be TV versus film, and in this case the TV may have reached a larger audience of potential record buyers.
The main reason is people love Kokomo and they don't SOL. That is it, imo. People heard both at a movie or on TV and they love K and they don't SOL. Promotion doesn't make people like it.
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Moon Dawg
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #206 on:
August 30, 2015, 05:05:47 AM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 09:02:08 PM
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.
Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.
But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.
I'm anything but convinced that if Al had readily offered a song, that he could have just gotten the song on SIP. He barely got to even sing on the album as a form of punishment.
Sounds more like a reward to me.
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Bittersweet-Sanity
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Busy Doin' Nothing
Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #207 on:
August 30, 2015, 05:06:12 AM »
Quote from: phirnis on August 29, 2015, 10:51:05 PM
I seriously hope it was only their 2nd choice... I mean, you get these guys on one of the most successful TV shows of the 90s and instead of bothering to write and produce just one (!) new song (or even just rework something from the vaults) they give the producers what many consider to be their worst song ever, taken from an old album that was an outright embarrassment both in terms of sales and reviews? It's pretty incredible either way I guess...
The use of Summer of Love must have had something to do w/ this bit in the lyrics:
We'll be California dreamin' Baywatchin' everyday
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"It looks like I'm going to have to go bananas all by myself." -B.W.
"Dr. Landy and Brian Wilson are right out of a storybook." -Brian Wilson
"So maybe Beach Boys fans are stupid and we can dismiss the whole thing. But maybe that's a pretty snotty attitude to take; maybe something is happening here that we just ought to know about" -Paul Williams
"Brian is an enigma, a leprechaun," said rhythm guitarist Al Jardine.
"There ain't a rocketship powerfull enough to be able to blast Jeff's fat ass into space."-Mike's Beard
Cam Mott
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #208 on:
August 30, 2015, 05:13:12 AM »
Quote from: phirnis on August 29, 2015, 10:51:05 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: phirnis on August 29, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
By the way, Summer of Love was three years old when it appeared on the show, right? Why did they use an old song from an album that was their biggest commercial failure ever?
I would assume in part it was an awkward attempt for Mike to try to get the song, from a project that had been such a sales failure, to finally get some traction; a desperate move to prove that Kokomo wasn't a fluke (I say desperate since SIP didn't just sink and go away, but it kept coming back in different regurgitated forms, with no success at any point). I can't imagine that any of the Boys believed in the song as much as Mike, nor did any of them stand to feel as ego-wounded by its failure as Mike did. It's like "It's gonna be a hit one way or another, dammmit!", yet this obviously did not pan out as planned, for SIP or SOL, no matter how much re-recording, remixing, or TV show tie-ins were repeatedly attempted.
Not many artists would try not once, but twice after the initial release, to try and push the same product that had severely flopped both commercially and critically. It's like everyone got the memo that SOL blew chunks and should just go away - except Mike. Yet after 1995, SOL might as well have never existed in the band's canon, if one were to see how many times it every got mentioned by them again. Post-1995, I guess Mike must've gotten the memo.
Was SOL only used after the band nixed recording that new song they tried recording for the show (but then abandoned)? Was it the 2nd choice?
I seriously hope it was only their 2nd choice... I mean, you get these guys on one of the most successful TV shows of the 90s and instead of bothering to write and produce just one (!) new song (or even just rework something from the vaults) they give the producers what many consider to be their worst song ever, taken from an old album that was an outright embarrassment both in terms of sales and reviews? It's pretty incredible either way I guess...
How do we know these choices/decisions weren't made by the Scotti Bros or Hasselhoff or some Baywatch director or producer?
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"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
clack
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #209 on:
August 30, 2015, 07:05:53 AM »
Btw, what happened to Melcher's taste level regarding production style? Back in the day, he produced some great records by the Byrds and Paul Revere and the Raiders.
And it's not that the SIP production was particularly current in the early 90's either, which would be an excuse. It was more mid-80's.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #210 on:
August 30, 2015, 07:20:36 AM »
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Probably. But that reason gets excused, rationalized, sympathized with, and Mike Love gets...blamed. As Mel Bernstein uttered before getting blown away by Tony Montana, "It didn't make any sense".
Start with our beloved brother Brian. Do we know that he WASN'T asked to participate in the recording of Summer Of Paradise. When did the Beach Boys NOT want him to write or record with them? Was he mad because he wasn't gonna be the producer? Did he want to keep all of his new songs for himself? Was Landy still controlling him? Was a girlfriend influencing him? Was he pissed at Carl because he was petitioning for a conservatorship? I ask these questions because I don't know the answers. I do know that - well, I don't know but I'm pretty sure - that Brian Wilson CHOSE to NOT be on The Beach Boys' new album. Does anybody know if he signed a contract for a new Beach Boys' album and got paid for it?
I don't have many problems with Carl Wilson and Summer In Paradise. I think it's one of his best albums vocally. People blast the "Forever" cover, but Carl saves it with one of the most emotional vocals of his career. But, why didn't Carl contribute any songs of his own? Did he have any? Well, maybe he was tired. No, he was uninspired. No, he was reluctant - just singing but nothing else, take it or leave it. No, it was because he didn't wanna fight. Why did he have to...fight? Just vote "No" to the album and Al votes "No" and Brian votes "No" and there's no album. Who needs to fight?
And then there's good old Al. I guess he wasn't "allowed" to offer any songs. Did he have any? Maybe he played his last ace with "Island Girl"? No, Mike was pissed at Al and Al was pissed at...the set lists and the cheerleaders and the excessive touring and the direction of the band and on and on. Sorry Al, no soup for you.
Hey, we can't forget about Bruce. He was allowed to offer a song, and what does he contribute? Half of a cover of a 1958 Danleeer's song.
FORGET ABOUT ALL THE ABOVE!!!!!! Summer In Paradise was Mike Love's fault!!!!!!
You guys remember when Still Cruisin' came out. Weren't you a little disappointed and didn't you want a FULL Beach Boys album? Of course you did. In those days you couldn't wait for a new Beach Boys' album. Who was the one pushing for a new Beach Boys' album? Brian? Carl? Al? After "Rock And Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" and "Kokomo" and "Somewhere Near Japan" and some others, was Terry Melcher such a bad choice? And who approved of that choice via a vote? And, in my opinion, "Still Surfin", "Lahaina Aloha", "Strange Things Happen", "Island Fever", and "Summer In Paradise" are good songs; not great songs, but good songs.
However, Summer In Paradise is NOT a good album (and "Summer Of Love" is the worst song in the entire Beach Boys' catalog). It's not a bad album; it's hard for The Beach Boys to make a bad album. There's some good new songs on there, two of the oldies are OK, and Carl and Al's vocals save the album. It's probably the worst Beach Boys' album if you rank 'em. You take off "Summer Of Love", "Surfin", and "Remember Walkin' In The Sand" - and add "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel", "Hotter", and maybe "The Spirit Of Rock And Roll" and you have a much stronger album.
Mike Love came up with a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good. But, at least he was trying. You can't fault him for that even though many do. In some ways he was just trying to give us, the fans, something good. Something extra. SOMETHING! Whether it be cheerleaders at a concert, or a tribute album featuring country singers, or a summer-y album. And we fans always want something MORE from The Beach Boys. That never changes. Well, Mike was the one who was trying to give us more. Sure, you can criticize his ideas and some warrant criticism. I'M NOT DENYING THAT. But, as a Beach Boys' fan for over 40 years, I have a different perspective, a perspective that has changed over the years. At least Mike was trying, trying being the key word. And I appreciate that. I have a hard time blaming people who are trying, especially people who are trying to give me a new Beach Boys' album. To me, I still don't understand (well, actually I do understand) why fans are so quick to EXCUSE Beach Boys who were tired, burned out, uninspired, didn't want to fight, gave their vote to somebody else, and maybe just didn't care - and blame the one who is TRYING to do something good for the fans.
«
Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 07:57:44 AM by Sheriff John Stone
»
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clack
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #211 on:
August 30, 2015, 07:51:04 AM »
I mostly agree with the Sheriff, but what he maybe misses is that there is something comic about misplaced confidence. There is an impression of Mike rubbing his hands together and saying, "Don't worry boys, I've got this covered" -- and then falling on his ass.
That said, it is the confident people -- as Brian currently is and was at points in the past -- who accomplish things. And SOL was awful, granted, but the rest of the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers. They would have filled out quite nicely a Beach Boys lp comprised mainly of the best of Brian's Sweet Insanity-era songs.
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The LEGENDARY OSD
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #212 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:18:43 AM »
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 30, 2015, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Probably. But that reason gets excused, rationalized, sympathized with, and Mike Love gets...blamed. As Mel Bernstein uttered before getting blown away by Tony Montana, "It didn't make any sense".
Start with our beloved brother Brian. Do we know that he WASN'T asked to participate in the recording of Summer Of Paradise. When did the Beach Boys NOT want him to write or record with them? Was he mad because he wasn't gonna be the producer? Did he want to keep all of his new songs for himself? Was Landy still controlling him? Was a girlfriend influencing him? Was he pissed at Carl because he was petitioning for a conservatorship? I ask these questions because I don't know the answers. I do know that - well, I don't know but I'm pretty sure - that Brian Wilson CHOSE to NOT be on The Beach Boys' new album. Does anybody know if he signed a contract for a new Beach Boys' album and got paid for it?
I don't have many problems with Carl Wilson and Summer In Paradise. I think it's one of his best albums vocally. People blast the "Forever" cover, but Carl saves it with one of the most emotional vocals of his career. But, why didn't Carl contribute any songs of his own? Did he have any? Well, maybe he was tired. No, he was uninspired. No, he was reluctant - just singing but nothing else, take it or leave it. No, it was because he didn't wanna fight. Why did he have to...fight? Just vote "No" to the album and Al votes "No" and Brian votes "No" and there's no album. Who needs to fight?
And then there's good old Al. I guess he wasn't "allowed" to offer any songs. Did he have any? Maybe he played his last ace with "Island Girl"? No, Mike was pissed at Al and Al was pissed at...the set lists and the cheerleaders and the excessive touring and the direction of the band and on and on. Sorry Al, no soup for you.
Hey, we can't forget about Bruce. He was allowed to offer a song, and what does he contribute? Half of a cover of a 1958 Danleeer's song.
FORGET ABOUT ALL THE ABOVE!!!!!! Summer In Paradise was Mike Love's fault!!!!!!
You guys remember when Still Cruisin' came out. Weren't you a little disappointed and didn't you want a FULL Beach Boys album? Of course you did. In those days you couldn't wait for a new Beach Boys' album. Who was the one pushing for a new Beach Boys' album? Brian? Carl? Al? After "Rock And Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" and "Kokomo" and "Somewhere Near Japan" and some others, was Terry Melcher such a bad choice? And who approved of that choice via a vote? And, in my opinion, "Still Surfin", "Lahaina Aloha", "Strange Things Happen", "Island Fever", and "Summer In Paradise" are good songs; not great songs, but good songs.
However, Summer In Paradise is NOT a good album (and "Summer Of Love" is the worst song in the entire Beach Boys' catalog). It's not a bad album; it's hard for The Beach Boys to make a bad album. There's some good new songs on there, two of the oldies are OK, and Carl and Al's vocals save the album. It's probably the worst Beach Boys' album if you rank 'em. You take off "Summer Of Love", "Surfin", and "Remember Walkin' In The Sand" - and add "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel", "Hotter", and maybe "The Spirit Of Rock And Roll" and you have a much stronger album.
Mike Love came up with a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good. But, at least he was trying. You can't fault him for that even though many do. In some ways he was just trying to give us, the fans, something good. Something extra. SOMETHING! Whether it be cheerleaders at a concert, or a tribute album featuring country singers, or a summer-y album. And we fans always want something MORE from The Beach Boys. That never changes. Well, Mike was the one who was trying to give us more. Sure, you can criticize his ideas and some warrant criticism. I'M NOT DENYING THAT. But, as a Beach Boys' fan for over 40 years, I have a different perspective, a perspective that has changed over the years. At least Mike was trying, trying being the key word. And I appreciate that. I have a hard time blaming people who are trying, especially people who are trying to give me a new Beach Boys' album. To me, I still don't understand (well, actually I do understand) why fans are so quick to EXCUSE Beach Boys who were tired, burned out, uninspired, didn't want to fight, gave their vote to somebody else, and maybe just didn't care - and blame the one who is TRYING to do something good for the fans.
It appears that myKe luHv easily pulled you in hook, line and sinker. "...for the fans." ?? Really? To line his pockets with money would be far more in line when speaking of the greedster. Put anything, anything out no matter how horrible as long as it has the BB name on it, who cares, myKe luHv
Alimony's a bitch, isn't it??
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #213 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:20:05 AM »
Quote from: clack on August 30, 2015, 07:51:04 AM
I mostly agree with the Sheriff, but what he maybe misses is that there is something comic about misplaced confidence. There is an impression of Mike rubbing his hands together and saying, "Don't worry boys, I've got this covered" -- and then falling on his ass.
No, I'm not missing that. I admitted above that some of Mike's ideas warrant criticism. But Summer In Paradise isn't one of them. It was the implementation of the concept that fell on its ass, and I don't blame Mike for that. You admitted above, and I agree with you, that "the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers". When Brian decided that he was "out", the project should've been nixed. But it wasn't. It was approved by the group. Why? Could one of the answers start with the letter m and end with the letter y?
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Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:28:33 AM by Sheriff John Stone
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #214 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:29:20 AM »
Quote from: clack on August 30, 2015, 07:51:04 AM
I mostly agree with the Sheriff, but what he maybe misses is that there is something comic about misplaced confidence. There is an impression of Mike rubbing his hands together and saying, "Don't worry boys, I've got this covered" -- and then falling on his ass.
That said, it is the confident people -- as Brian currently is and was at points in the past -- who accomplish things. And SOL was awful, granted, but the rest of the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers. They would have filled out quite nicely a Beach Boys lp comprised mainly of the best of Brian's Sweet Insanity-era songs.
First, in fairness to Melcher, he "isn't here" to defend himself. And, he did have a significant corpus of successful industry work.
Second, I like Stars and Stripes. As much as I've talked about "late to the party" - this one might have been "early to the party" in fairness to Thomas, who "is here" to defend himself. Country really became hot not long after the release. I like that they brought in old-country (Willie Nelson) alongside new-country (Lorrie Morgan, etc.) to do leads with BB background vocals. It is beyond me, that this production didn't do really well.
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CenturyDeprived
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #215 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:30:54 AM »
Quote from: DonnyL on August 29, 2015, 10:15:20 PM
Quote from: Andy Botwin on August 28, 2015, 06:27:16 AM
SIP is bad, poorly recorded music by people who, at one time, made excellnt, well-recorded music. The fact that Terry Melcher doesn't get Joe Thomas-ed is proof that this is Kokomaoist Central.
Nah, the reason people don't compare the two producers is that Joe Thomas seems to ruin things that might be great with a different production/sound ... Whereas Summer in Paradise would probably have been just as awful no matter how you slice it.
Controversial opinion or not, I like Melcher's production style on Kokomo and Somewhere Near Japan more than Joe Thomas' production style on the vast majority of his work with Brian/BBs. SIP, however ,is where Melcher dropped the ball.
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CenturyDeprived
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #216 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:35:18 AM »
Quote from: Moon Dawg on August 30, 2015, 05:05:47 AM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 09:02:08 PM
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.
Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.
But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.
I'm anything but convinced that if Al had readily offered a song, that he could have just gotten the song on SIP. He barely got to even sing on the album as a form of punishment.
Sounds more like a reward to me.
The thing is, undoubtedly Al and Carl's voices are virtually the only saving grace of SIP. If they had been absent, the album would have much fewer redeeming qualities. I wonder if Carl's mindset was "I know this material is subpar, but at least my voice will bring some dignity to it, if it's going to be released as a BB product".
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #217 on:
August 30, 2015, 08:39:34 AM »
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 30, 2015, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Probably. But that reason gets excused, rationalized, sympathized with, and Mike Love gets...blamed. As Mel Bernstein uttered before getting blown away by Tony Montana, "It didn't make any sense".
Start with our beloved brother Brian. Do we know that he WASN'T asked to participate in the recording of Summer Of Paradise. When did the Beach Boys NOT want him to write or record with them? Was he mad because he wasn't gonna be the producer? Did he want to keep all of his new songs for himself? Was Landy still controlling him? Was a girlfriend influencing him? Was he pissed at Carl because he was petitioning for a conservatorship? I ask these questions because I don't know the answers. I do know that - well, I don't know but I'm pretty sure - that Brian Wilson CHOSE to NOT be on The Beach Boys' new album. Does anybody know if he signed a contract for a new Beach Boys' album and got paid for it?
I don't have many problems with Carl Wilson and Summer In Paradise. I think it's one of his best albums vocally. People blast the "Forever" cover, but Carl saves it with one of the most emotional vocals of his career. But, why didn't Carl contribute any songs of his own? Did he have any? Well, maybe he was tired. No, he was uninspired. No, he was reluctant - just singing but nothing else, take it or leave it. No, it was because he didn't wanna fight. Why did he have to...fight? Just vote "No" to the album and Al votes "No" and Brian votes "No" and there's no album. Who needs to fight?
And then there's good old Al. I guess he wasn't "allowed" to offer any songs. Did he have any? Maybe he played his last ace with "Island Girl"? No, Mike was pissed at Al and Al was pissed at...the set lists and the cheerleaders and the excessive touring and the direction of the band and on and on. Sorry Al, no soup for you.
Hey, we can't forget about Bruce. He was allowed to offer a song, and what does he contribute? Half of a cover of a 1958 Danleeer's song.
FORGET ABOUT ALL THE ABOVE!!!!!! Summer In Paradise was Mike Love's fault!!!!!!
You guys remember when Still Cruisin' came out. Weren't you a little disappointed and didn't you want a FULL Beach Boys album? Of course you did. In those days you couldn't wait for a new Beach Boys' album. Who was the one pushing for a new Beach Boys' album? Brian? Carl? Al? After "Rock And Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" and "Kokomo" and "Somewhere Near Japan" and some others, was Terry Melcher such a bad choice? And who approved of that choice via a vote? And, in my opinion, "Still Surfin", "Lahaina Aloha", "Strange Things Happen", "Island Fever", and "Summer In Paradise" are good songs; not great songs, but good songs.
However, Summer In Paradise is NOT a good album (and "Summer Of Love" is the worst song in the entire Beach Boys' catalog). It's not a bad album; it's hard for The Beach Boys to make a bad album. There's some good new songs on there, two of the oldies are OK, and Carl and Al's vocals save the album. It's probably the worst Beach Boys' album if you rank 'em. You take off "Summer Of Love", "Surfin", and "Remember Walkin' In The Sand" - and add "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel", "Hotter", and maybe "The Spirit Of Rock And Roll" and you have a much stronger album.
Mike Love came up with a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good. But, at least he was trying. You can't fault him for that even though many do. In some ways he was just trying to give us, the fans, something good. Something extra. SOMETHING! Whether it be cheerleaders at a concert, or a tribute album featuring country singers, or a summer-y album. And we fans always want something MORE from The Beach Boys. That never changes. Well, Mike was the one who was trying to give us more. Sure, you can criticize his ideas and some warrant criticism. I'M NOT DENYING THAT. But, as a Beach Boys' fan for over 40 years, I have a different perspective, a perspective that has changed over the years. At least Mike was trying, trying being the key word. And I appreciate that. I have a hard time blaming people who are trying, especially people who are trying to give me a new Beach Boys' album. To me, I still don't understand (well, actually I do understand) why fans are so quick to EXCUSE Beach Boys who were tired, burned out, uninspired, didn't want to fight, gave their vote to somebody else, and maybe just didn't care - and blame the one who is TRYING to do something good for the fans.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
«
Reply #218 on:
August 30, 2015, 09:11:11 AM »
Quote from: clack on August 29, 2015, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 29, 2015, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Sheriff John Stone on August 29, 2015, 04:37:03 PM
Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.
Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.
And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.
The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.
Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?
Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.
Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.
Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.
Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.
But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.
Al was kicked out of the band before they started the record and was only allowed back in when it was almost finished. If I was fired from my job, but still showed up expecting to wok, I'd probably get slapped with a restraining order. It is ridiculous and idiotic to put part of the blame for SIP on Al for this reason.
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Robbie Mac
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #219 on:
August 30, 2015, 09:19:10 AM »
And as far as "they could have said 'no'. Mike was only a few years removed from Kokomo, the biggest hit they would have. Does anyone honestly think Mike would have stepped aside if Carl presented something he wrote? Mike, back then especially, was all about the hits and to him, hits for the BB were all about the Kokmo formula. If Carl was writing, he may have felt whatever he was working on 1.) might not get a fair hearing from the de facto leader at the time 2.) might not have been a good fit to the style that Mike and Terry Melcher were developing. Even the cover songs they did on SIP are Kokomo-ish.
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #220 on:
August 30, 2015, 09:49:05 AM »
Regarding SOL... Wasn't the Wilson-Love penned "Baywatch Nights" song going to be in its place?
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #221 on:
August 30, 2015, 10:05:33 AM »
Quote from: CenturyDeprived on August 30, 2015, 08:30:54 AM
Quote from: DonnyL on August 29, 2015, 10:15:20 PM
Quote from: Andy Botwin on August 28, 2015, 06:27:16 AM
SIP is bad, poorly recorded music by people who, at one time, made excellnt, well-recorded music. The fact that Terry Melcher doesn't get Joe Thomas-ed is proof that this is Kokomaoist Central.
Nah, the reason people don't compare the two producers is that Joe Thomas seems to ruin things that might be great with a different production/sound ... Whereas Summer in Paradise would probably have been just as awful no matter how you slice it.
Controversial opinion or not, I like Melcher's production style on Kokomo and Somewhere Near Japan more than Joe Thomas' production style on the vast majority of his work with Brian/BBs.
...
I agree! In my opinion, Somewhere Near Japan/Kokomo was their best 80s sound by far, much more interesting than what Steve Levine had come up with a couple years prior. Also, while it's a pretty slick style overall, I find it much more aurally satisfying than the Joe Thomas stuff. For example, I really like the way Melcher used to draw attention to each individual singer's voice - very 80s but pretty good nonetheless!
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #222 on:
August 30, 2015, 10:16:25 AM »
Completely disagree. I hate hate hate HATE Melcher's production at that time period. Very brittle and plastic sounding, and no different from Thomas's horrible production on Imagination.
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #223 on:
August 30, 2015, 10:54:38 AM »
Quote from: Andy Botwin on August 30, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
And as far as "they could have said 'no'. Mike was only a few years removed from Kokomo, the biggest hit they would have. Does anyone honestly think Mike would have stepped aside if Carl presented something he wrote? Mike, back then especially, was all about the hits and to him, hits for the BB were all about the Kokmo formula. If Carl was writing, he may have felt whatever he was working on 1.) might not get a fair hearing from the de facto leader at the time 2.) might not have been a good fit to the style that Mike and Terry Melcher were developing. Even the cover songs they did on SIP are Kokomo-ish.
No reason for Mike having to step aside. Mike and Terry wrote only half an album. It seems unlikely that Mike would have rejected a song from Carl in favor of a cover of 'Walking in the Sand' (which is not at all a Kokomo-like song, btw). And are you saying that Mike was completely in charge, with Carl having no say whatsoever? Mike could veto a Carl song? I find that to be implausible.
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Re: Summer in Paradise Recalled
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Reply #224 on:
August 30, 2015, 11:12:42 AM »
The cover songs were turned into Kokomo-clones. That is what I meant.
And yes, I could easily see Mike turning down something that he felt didn't fit his vision.
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