Why do you hate Mike Love?

[Empire Of Love]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

[ontor pertawst]

But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there.

Oh what the hell are you babbling about with this "we" crap, you go there almost every time you post!

It's never going to be "fair" no matter how hard you try to balance it by constantly sneering about the Wilsons or wondering why BW or his dead brother don't get the scorn, mockery, and online abuse their flamboyantly prickish cousin does.  He just isn't a very sympathetic guy, ultimately.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

And what if Mike Love was your crusty uncle Mike Stone who constantly belittles your dad for doing drugs decades ago and having mental illness, but then claims he's all about positivity when anyone calls him on it? What if he sued your dad for defaming the family name when your dad released his long in progress album? It goes both ways.

The reason I think people don't hate Brian is because he's so humble and honest. Watching interviews, he's like a big teddy bear without a malicious bone in his body(though he has Done shitty things, as have we all.) And Dennis was just a tortured soul through and through. If he were alive and talking like Mike year after year in interviews that goodwill would dry up really quick though. And that's why Mike suffers because he keeps on going year after year, looking more and more like the petty jealous bald guy whose greatest musical accomplishment is the hook to GV

[Empire Of Love]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

More nonsense.  Brian has acknowledged his wrong doing, or much of it.  Mike has not.  Brian has taken responsibility, Mike has not.  Brian is not still being an ass, Mike is.  These are the reasons Mike is continually under assault, be keeps giving people reasons to dislike him.  The continual complaining about Mike is proof he continues to be an ass.   There can be no doubt, when he acted like a decent human being during C50, most were very forgiving.  Connect the dots: Mike acts like an ass, people call him out on it.  Mike acts like a decent chap, people soften.  Nothing to do with anything else whatsoever.

You have never addressed these facts, and won't now.

EoL

[Empire Of Love]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

PS: Dennis is dead and no longer doing shitty things to people, or nice things, or anything at all.  Get it?  If you have owned up to your sh*t and stop doing it, or if you are dead, people don't go on and on about your *former* shittyness.  If you keep acting like a dbag, they do - and your former shittyness is brought back up because it all fits together to paint a picture of a less than nice guy.  It's pretty simple Sheriff, it's pretty simple.

EoL

[John Stivaktas]

Why do you hate Mike Love? I don't. Let bygones be bygones.

[Don Malcolm]

After struggling through yet another version of the Smiley Smile malaise, I've decided to repost the material appearing below. As you'll see, it was posted in a different thread, where it did not receive a single response. It tries to get "outside" the penumbra of emotion that seems to ovecome this forum when it comes to the elemental faceoff between Brian and Mike, and simply catalogue Mike's creative invoivement in the band's music during the time (post-SMiLE) when all of the band members began to emerge from Brian's shadow and produce music of their own.

For whatever set of reasons, it's clear now that the band did not make a completely successful transition to a creative democracy and were not able to definitely establish an identity separate from what had produced their first success. The problem seems to have been more commercial than artistic, and the real struggles between the band members were not in the 1968-73 time frame (when they were trying to pull things together and take up the slack as Brian retreated) but in the time frame after the success of Endless Summer, which permanently weakened their resolve to create music that extended their artistic range.

The problem for Mike Love in this situation, I think, was two-fold. First, not really being analogous to Paul McCartney or John Lennon in terms of that songwriting partnership (which we know to be a complicated matter resolved for matters of business as the ubiquitous and opaque "L-McC" credit ), Mike could not take up the songwriting slack that Brian's increasing absence created in the 1968-73 time frame. That fell to others, which meant that Mike was still reliant on others to push things forward for the band as opposed to actively guiding and shaping their new output.

Second, by creating a new generational market for the classic songs, Mike scored a business coup that forced him and the rest of the band to bring Brian back into the limelight. Doing so created a new set of tensions due to the length of time that the rest of the band had been trying to shore things up during Brian's absence (something that was particularly acute in '74-'75, when the world was wondering where the next LP from the resurrected and "back on top" BBs was).

Indeed, the pressures on the band at this time were enormous and nearly resulted in the band breaking up in 1977. The hard feelings that grew out of the long-term "roller coaster" that the band had been on for more than a decade seemed to harden into place at this time, setting in place attitudes that have not been able to be fully resolved over the next four decades. The return of Gene Landy and his aggressive, megalomaniacal orchestration of Brian's solo career upped the ante and helped to create more factionalization within the surviving band members and, as evidenced here, in the fan base as well.

Now, in the Internet age where people parse facts in rabid pursuit of the so-called "moral high ground," we have a tough time assigning the proper credit and the proper blame--and not just in the matter of Mike Love, who clearly deserves much credit for keeping the BBs in front of the public despite any "artisitic limitations" that he might possess in comparison to his mega-talented but troubled cousin.

So below, a humble, incomplete sketch of Mike Love's role in the 1968-77 period of the Beach Boys' music, a most tumultuous time where much effort at redefinition was undertaken, only to be buried by a wave of nostalgia. Perhaps we will one day see that TWGMTR is a miracle of the type of compromise that can only be effected when the stakes are high enough to create a bridge over what remain troubled waters.


Re: What did Mike + the other Boys think of Jack Rieley's lyrics?
« Reply #123 on: August 18, 2015, 08:29:08 PM »
  
I will try to summarize the general history of the band and its inner dynamics from the "fall from grace" that followed Good Vibrations. We will also focus on Mike's involvement with the creative efforts of that time. You can all take potshots at that as you see fit with respect to any interpretations of behavior and involvement between the various band members. We begin with Smiley Smile. Steve Desper is most welcome to add any details regarding the period in which he was in attendance as the band's sound genius.

SS--With none of the other BBs ready/able to take over production & songwriting chores, Brian is forced/cajoled into creating a quickie surrogate. The LP continues the already in-process transition to Carl as the key alternate lead vocalist to Mike.

Mike's involvement: moderate (leads/lyrics on "She's Goin' Bald" and "Gettin' Hungry," the usual peerless background singing).

WH--The BBs "reload" with an album that pushes away from their signature sound and channels Motown/R&B. Carl becomes yet more prominent as a lead vocalist, moving into uptempo songs that had previously been the province of Mike.

Mike's involvement: heavy (lyrics on many songs, with lots of emphasis on "boy/girl").

Friends--Almost a Brian solo project, nearly a 180-degree shift from WH. Dennis debuts as a songwriter.

Mike's involvement: slight (away in India for a good bit of the sessions).

20/20--The rest of the band begins to flex its songwriting/production muscles as Brian goes through an emotional decline, necessitating Carl to augment/finish two SMiLE tracks.

Mike's involvement: moderate-to-heavy (more leads here since Summer Days/Summer Nights). Brings back "the formula" by coaxing Brian into writing/recording "Do It Again."

Sunflower--The product of an enormous burst of creativity from all band members, including Brian, who writes some terrific songs in extending the classic BBs' sound ("This Whole World," "All I Wanna Do"). The band supports everyone's songwriting efforts; Steve Desper perfects his sonic mastery to create one of the greatest-sounding LPs in pop music history.

Mike's involvement: moderate- to-heavy (lyrics on many songs, one of his best leads ever on "All I Wanna Do", peerless backing vocals).

With the commercial crash-and-burn of the LP, Jack Reiley enters the picture, angling the group toward new songs stressing topical issues (particularly ecology, a subject that seems to resonate with Mike and Al).

SU--The LP isn't quite successful in following Sunflower's pattern and reflects some factionalizing in the band as Brian's involvement wavers (only two new songs on the LP, "Day in the Life of a Tree" and "Til I Die." The schizoid nature of the material, coupled with the aura of the SMiLE treasure "Surf's Up," revives the band's commercial fortunes despite the lack of an AM hit.

Mike's involvement: light to moderate (leads on two songs, co-writing--but none with Brian). Tom Nolan's RS article repeats the anecdotal notion that Mike is a conservative force in the band; observers of the band during the 1971 tour intimate that Mike seems more enthusiastic for the earlier songs.

CATP--Jack Reiley, with Carl's blessing, shakes up the band; the BB's risk losing their earlier identity in a wide-ranging series of tracks that sound more disjointed than they are thanks to being packaged with a reissue of Pet Sounds. Carl stands in for Brian, with Mike mostly as a cheerleader on the sidelines.

Mike's involvement: light-to-moderate (lead on "He Come Down," half-lead on "Marcella"). His support for the songs on the LP is broad but not deep.

Holland--The "change of venue" LP only comes together when "Sail On Sailor" emerges from the ether after the LP is rejected by Warner/Reprise. The LP more successfully blends the disparate sounds of the band than CATP, but it doesn't have the former LPs high points or range.

Mike's involvement: moderate (solo composition, leads on "Big Sur," "Caiifornia", co-writing on several songs, including the deleted "We Got Love". In '72 Mike seems to be reasonably integrated into the current creative framework of the band, even co-writing with Dennis and Blondie/Ricky.

The continuing absence and ongoing decline of Brian in '73-'75, coupled with the escalating resurgence in popularity of the band (in large part due to Endless Summer) seems to be the watershed for Mike, who more emphatically embraced the oldies segment of the live performances and began calling for the band to return to its roots, eventually advocating that Brian be brought back to do a high-wire act in a windstorm and write "new old" BB classics with his lyrical assistance.

15 BO: The lone example of a Wilson-Love collaboration is "It's OK," Brian's rewrite of "Mess of Help" as a summer tune. Mike's lyrics betray a little middle-age resignation that pushes back a bit against the "fun in the sun" veneer, but it's a momentary crack in his armor.

Mike's involvement: moderate (lead vocal on "Rock'n'Roll Music," "It's OK", "A Casual Look", songwriting "Everyone's In Love With You")

Love You--Brian's second near-solo effort, completed by Carl with guest appearances from most of the rest of the band.

Mike's involvement: slight (leads on "Roller Skating Child," "Johnny Carson", half-leads on "Let Us Go On This Way," "Airplane").

By this point Mike had "effed with the formula" a number of times, and he was still in search of a summer hit that evoked the good old days. With Brian regressing after his first round of treatment with Gene Landy, the band tried to rally for its first LP for CBS, but they were still crippled by their near-breakup in 1977 and the material was unfocused. Mike himself began to tire of the BBs chaotic creative democracy, and began to pursue side projects that more accurately reflected his desires to go back to the pre-Pet Sounds commercial glory days.  

Once Dennis died and Bruce returned as an active member, Mike pursued the America's band monicker as a ticket to ongoing commercial success, an approach that for the most part has remained in play over the past 30+ years. He wants to write new-old BBs classics with Brian, and actually got close to the general vicinity with TWGMTR, singing exceptionally well for a septuagenarian, but Brian stole the show artistically and commercially with cuts co-written with others.

To conclude: Mike's desire to return to the good old days has consistently increased as time has passed, and his revisionist comments tend to overlook/downplay his genuine involvement in the more artistically adventurous periods of BB history. Despite the fact that he has nothing to lose by embracing these intriguing tangents of BB history, Mike has mostly chosen to eschew that aspect of the band, which has only served to confirm for many who believe that he was a intransigent dissenter against any/all "veering away from the formula." While there is truth in that, it seems certain that it has been exaggerated. But Mike would do well to sit down with some journalist (perhaps in his autobio) and simply expound more on the entire BB oeuvre, including the period that he seems least inclined to discuss--the band's 1968-74 "alternate identity." Simply doing that might go a long way toward dousing the flames that he sometimes seems intent on fanning.

[CenturyDeprived]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

More nonsense.  Brian has acknowledged his wrong doing, or much of it.  Mike has not.  Brian has taken responsibility, Mike has not.  Brian is not still being an ass, Mike is.  These are the reasons Mike is continually under assault, be keeps giving people reasons to dislike him.  The continual complaining about Mike is proof he continues to be an ass.   There can be no doubt, when he acted like a decent human being during C50, most were very forgiving.  Connect the dots: Mike acts like an ass, people call him out on it.  Mike acts like a decent chap, people soften.  Nothing to do with anything else whatsoever.

You have never addressed these facts, and won't now.

EoL

This. And again, we have more examples of posters dodging or avoiding topics when a point is made.

These valid points that EOL correctly bring up won't be addressed by those who prefer to be ostriches.

[Emdeeh]

Did you guys know there's another Mike Love out there making music (besides ML, Jr.)? I just found this extensive interview with him in my BB newsfeed. No mention of the BBs in the article, but this guy surfs, meditates, and has an impressive set of dreadlocks:

http://www.gratefulweb.com/articles/grateful-web-interview-mike-love

[Empire Of Love]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

As usual, your post completely ignores what I and others have said over and over again.  Mike is "singled out" because he continues to be an @ss whereas Brian has a I acknowledged his error and moved on.  He is t still being an @ss.  People give second chances to those who behave like Brian has and they don't for people who continue to offend, like Mike.  Is Brian still doing drugs and dragging down the band in doing so?  He is not.  Is he bad mouthing Mike in interviews time after time?  To the contrary.  Does he continue to blame shift toward everyone but himself?  He does not.  But Mike does these things (minus the drugs, of course) and that is why people have negative words for him.

Now one thing has been proven: the reason you continue to ignore these facts and try to place the blame on others instead of Mike is proof that you don't even believe what you are saying.  You've got some other reason for making these statements, perhaps stubbornness, perhaps you like to bait people, perhaps some other reason I can't even imagine.  But it is clear you are deliberately avoiding what I and so many others have explained over and over again.

EoL

[Empire Of Love]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

Because...if you WEREN'T doing that, you and others would be thinking (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), "You know, Dennis did this and Brian did that and Dennis did that and Brian did this, so, I guess they're just as bad as Mike, but, why am I constantly posting negative things about Mike, while all along, NOT posting negative things about Dennis and Brian. Why am I singling out Mike, keeping in mind what Dennis and Brian did? Weren't they in the same band? Didn't they all fu** up, too? Am I being fair? Or hypocritical? Part of a double standard? Why JUST Mike Love negative threads and posts?"

Is the answer because it's not nice to speak ill about the dead or the mentally ill? Part of it is that, martyrdom to some extent. But the main reason is that Brian gave us beautiful music and Dennis gave us beautiful music, so we forgive 'em.

This is a rhetorical question for you. What if Dennis Wilson was Dennis Martin. And, instead of being in The Beach Boys he was in a local garage band called The Marlins. And, instead of recording beautiful music he never recorded a note of music. And, instead of living in Southern California he was your next door neighbor - and you knew exactly how he lived his life which wasn't, shall we say, exemplary. Would you feel the same way about Dennis Martin as you do about Dennis Wilson? Why not?

More nonsense.  Brian has acknowledged his wrong doing, or much of it.  Mike has not.  Brian has taken responsibility, Mike has not.  Brian is not still being an ass, Mike is.  These are the reasons Mike is continually under assault, be keeps giving people reasons to dislike him.  The continual complaining about Mike is proof he continues to be an ass.   There can be no doubt, when he acted like a decent human being during C50, most were very forgiving.  Connect the dots: Mike acts like an ass, people call him out on it.  Mike acts like a decent chap, people soften.  Nothing to do with anything else whatsoever.

You have never addressed these facts, and won't now.

EoL

This. And again, we have more examples of posters dodging or avoiding topics when a point is made.

These valid points that EOL correctly bring up won't be addressed by those who prefer to be ostriches.

Exactly.   And it won't be addressed because to address it is to give up the narrative, and that is not something a handful of people here are willing to do.  Some are more crafty about it, others more obvious, but it's all the same.  Make an accusation, ignore arguments, post the same non-sense, make same argument while pretending you were not refuted in the prior post.  Hope something sticks.  Repeat ad infinitum.

EoL

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't understand the "a-guy-can-say-and-do-whatever-he-wants-and-it-doesn't-matter-because-all-that-matters-is-the-music" mentality.

That statement could easily apply to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson. Actually, that statement is more accurate if you DO apply it to Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs when a man admits he was in error.

People tend to give second chances and forgive past wrongs to a man who can write beautiful music. Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson are perfect examples of this. And, this board and people like you are proof of it.

If Brian Wilson and Dennis Wilson led their lives the way they did - and it's a part of history now - and never gave us the beautiful music they did, I'm guessing you wouldn't have such a high opinion of them. We tend to overlook a lot of things with people who provide us with pleasure. And, conversely, we don't tolerate, forgive, or give second chances to those who don't.

Except this is all nonsense that fits your narrative but not reality.  In reality people were forgiving of Mike around the time of C50.  Including myself.  Guess what, he still hadn't written beautiful music like Brian.  He did, however, quickly go back to his old ways and up the ante.  That's why people don't like him.  It's not a fan problem, it's a Mike Love problem.  Also, I've never defended Dennis or Brian nor have I excused the behavior of either, so not sure what you are talking about given you were responding to my post.

EoL

This is all I'm going to say about this for now (please hold your applause )...

The fact that you, and everybody on this board constantly singles out behaviors by Mike Love - "singles out" being the key phrase - proves my point. It proves that you ARE excusing the behaviors (on the asshole scale) of Brian and Dennis - but not Mike. It's all in the posts, in the threads. It's right in front of you. Day after day after day. Every aspect of Mike's life and career with The Beach Boys is criticized. But, Brian and Dennis, well, we're not going there. And that IS, in fact, reality.

As usual, your post completely ignores what I and others have said over and over again.  Mike is "singled out" because he continues to be an @ss whereas Brian has a I acknowledged his error and moved on.  He is t still being an @ss.  People give second chances to those who behave like Brian has and they don't for people who continue to offend, like Mike.  Is Brian still doing drugs and dragging down the band in doing so?  He is not.  Is he bad mouthing Mike in interviews time after time?  To the contrary.  Does he continue to blame shift toward everyone but himself?  He does not.  But Mike does these things (minus the drugs, of course) and that is why people have negative words for him.

Now one thing has been proven: the reason you continue to ignore these facts and try to place the blame on others instead of Mike is proof that you don't even believe what you are saying.  You've got some other reason for making these statements, perhaps stubbornness, perhaps you like to bait people, perhaps some other reason I can't even imagine.  But it is clear you are deliberately avoiding what I and so many others have explained over and over again.

EoL

Mike did drugs too. Just not as many

[Empire Of Love]

LOL.  I was unaware one way or another, but it doesn't surprise me given the 60s and being young, impressionable, and having access plus money, etc.  But I don't think his drug use had much of a negative impact on the band as did the drug use of Brian and Dennis.

Speaking of, did Keep It Clean do drugs?

EoL

[harrisonjon]

'Hating' Mike Love would be crass. I've never found him interesting enough to get worked up about, and I don't think his role in the non-appearance of Smile was decisive, and certainly not a crime, even if it was insensitive and insular. At worst, he's a minor figure in rock history whose fame is entirely due to the talent of Brian Wilson. Save the hate for someone with real power to damage people's lives.

[IainLee]

The article should be in the first issue of Record Collector of 2016.

I may stay offline for the next 8 years or so...

[Awesoman]

I'm writing an article and I'd love to know your answers...

I don't hate Mike Love.  The one time I met him he dug my Beach Boys Hawaiian shirt and he posed in a pic with me.  So we're cool.

[Peter Reum]

It is long past time to acknowledge that The Beach Boys are people. Furthermore, they are/were a family. Do any of you have family who you find "difficult?" I did.Hating is a word I reserve for people who commit extremely heinous acts. An example would be the man who blew up the Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City. Mike Love is the guy who has toured annually for 54 years, written some fine lyrics to Brian and Dennis's music, and has generally been polite and helpful  to fans he encounters while touring. While it is easy to label any Beach Boy a nincompoop, be cognizant that these people called The Beach Boys are people first, and they read this board.  Yes,he has been difficult at times, who on this board hasn't? The Beach Boys have been  a fine addition to American Music,and I think it's time to treat them as such, All of Them.

[KDS]

It is long past time to acknowledge that The Beach Boys are people. Furthermore, they are/were a family. Do any of you have family who you find "difficult?" I did.Hating is a word I reserve for people who commit extremely heinous acts. An example would be the man who blew up the Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City. Mike Love is the guy who has toured annually for 54 years, written some fine lyrics to Brian and Dennis's music, and has generally been polite and helpful  to fans he encounters while touring. While it is easy to label any Beach Boy a nincompoop, be cognizant that these people called The Beach Boys are people first, and they read this board.  Yes,he has been difficult at times, who on this board hasn't? The Beach Boys have been  a fine addition to American Music,and I think it's time to treat them as such, All of Them.

Well said. 

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The article should be in the first issue of Record Collector of 2016.

I may stay offline for the next 8 years or so...

I am expecting a super puff piece. Where were all your f/u questions to the answers given? I imagine the purpose of the thread was just to gather fodder for your pro-Luhv agenda article, "Spreading the Love - the hardest working dude in Classic Rock".

For me Peter, it's simply that he kicked Al out of the band, twice. No Wilsons? There is some legitimacy with Jardine.

[SMiLE Brian]

It's all about Mike as it has always been. A way to pocket money with a poorly paid band and hog all the credit since firing BW and Al.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Just because it's sooooo damn easy to do.  

[Douchepool]

How does one hate someone they've never met beyond the usual autograph and maybe minute-long small talk? Well, unless their wives or girlfriends took a liking to the Lovester, that is.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Wow...a bit personal, eh?

[SMiLE Brian]

I just got pistol whipped