New lyrics/melodies on BWPS

[Autotune]

I am sure this has been discussed before, so excuse in advance. I used to know my Smile sh*t until about 15 years ago, when I became more of a casual Smile fan. I celebrated the release of BWPS and the box set but never analyzed those very much.

My question has to do with the "new" vocal melodies/lyrics on the album. Are those 1966 vintage? Some of them are? Thinking about Worms, Hawaii, Holidays and such. My uninformed impression is that most of those vocal melodies are simply lyrics sung to instrumental lines that were originally understood as such (i.e. instrumental). With the exception of I'm waiting for the day, and probably one or two more I can't think about right now, Brian never doubled vocal leads with an instrument. Unless this instrumental doubling of a lead melody is an arrangement trait brought by Van Dyke to the table... I believe he did/does double leads with instruments sometimes.

Thoughts? Info?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Great topic!

As far as I'm aware, the only vintage lyrics on BWPS for songs that previous were heard without lyrics was Roll Plymouth Rock or Do You Like Worms. A snippet of studio chatter on The Smile Sessions suggest that the melody for those lyrics on BWPS was not vintage, though it is difficult to say for sure what that original melody might have been. Just a question on this note: has anyone on here seen a copy of the original Worms lyrics? The story goes that they were found for BWPS but they were missing a word and that's when Van Dyke was brought in and recalled the missing word, which was "Indians." To me, though, this story always seemed odd - why would that word be missing? It's not like it's at the beginning or the end. Was the word smudged? Is it possible that there were more lyrics on that song that we don't know about - hence the odd melody on TSS?

TSS also lends some evidence that they may have been a vocal part for Holidays though it certainly does not sound like the version on BWPS.

I agree that putting lyrics to instrumental lines does not seem in keeping with the Brian Wilson aesthetic circa 1966.

[harrisonjon]

"Easy my child, it's just enough to believe..." from CIFOTM was written by VDP in 2003, I believe.

[The Shift]

… and then there's the additional Frank Holmes pictures from (I think) the late 90s, which appear to be, in part at least, based on some of the newer (2003) lyrics; deeper and deeper we go!

[c-man]

"Is it hot as hell in here, or is it me", or however it goes - that's a 2003 addition.

[buddhahat]

In Priore's Smile book there's a Darian quote iirc that suggests the 'new' clarinet melody on Look/Song For Children is a vintage melody heard in a headphone bleed during the preparations for BWPS. It certainly sounds more like a vintage melody than any of the other new ones to my ears. However I've never seen/heard any other evidence to support this claim. Somebody must ask Alan Boyd about this the next time he's on the board.

[Mr. Tiger]

As mentioned above re: the Worms melody, this is a somewhat contentious issue, but I personally believe that the lead melody in BWPS is simply one of the many background vocal melodies Brian had in mind for the verse, while a fragment of the true lead melody can indeed be heard in one of Brian's count-ins during a DYLW Tracking Session in the SMiLE Boxset. Others strongly disagree though...

[Jason Penick]

Apologies if this is diverting from the topic at hand, but this seems as good a place to ask this as any-- are these the only known lyrics to the original DYLW? It seems there should be at least one more verse couplet.

Waving from the ocean liner
Beaded Cheering indians behind them

Once upon the Sandwich Isles
the social structure steamed upon Hawaii

Bicycle rider, just see what you've done
Done to the church of the American Indian

Ribbon of concrete, just see what you've done
Done to the church of the American Indian

And as we returned to the East or West Indies
We always got them confused

[Chocolate Shake Man]

As mentioned above re: the Worms melody, this is a somewhat contentious issue, but I personally believe that the lead melody in BWPS is simply one of the many background vocal melodies Brian had in mind for the verse, while a fragment of the true lead melody can indeed be heard in one of Brian's count-ins during a DYLW Tracking Session in the SMiLE Boxset. Others strongly disagree though...

I suppose it is possible. But given both that Brian made up new melodies for everything else and given that the melody he sings during the tracking session is so different from the one on BWPS, I do find it unlikely that the BWPS Worms melody is vintage. Plus, I have hard time believing that Brian would remember a background vocal melody nearly 40 years later but not the lead melody (or, if he remembers both somehow that he would choose to foreground the background one and eliminate the lead when they were preserving so much and uncovering a vintage lead would have been huge).

I asked this in the Smile sub-section but it just kills me that we don't even have evidence that vintage Child is the Father lyrics ever existed in the first place.

[Mr. Tiger]

The Worms lead melody on BWPS isn't really much of a melody at all... it merely mirrors the underlying chords of the verse in a manner similar to the BWPS verse melody for Child. If you listen carefully to the vintage BG vocs for Worms during this verse, you can just about pick out some some scat "bum bums" and high "la las" that follow close to the same basic chordal pattern. The melody Brian sings in the DYLW sessions, on the other hand, is far more melodically complex, adds a whole other dimension to the verse and just fits the Polynesian vibe beautifully. If only he had completed the melodic phrase on tape! Sadly he trails off early but it's still a tantalizing glimpse of what Worms might have been...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I agree. Frustrating.

[Imperator]

I am sure this has been discussed before, so excuse in advance. I used to know my Smile sh*t until about 15 years ago, when I became more of a casual Smile fan. I celebrated the release of BWPS and the box set but never analyzed those very much.

My question has to do with the "new" vocal melodies/lyrics on the album. Are those 1966 vintage? Some of them are? Thinking about Worms, Hawaii, Holidays and such. My uninformed impression is that most of those vocal melodies are simply lyrics sung to instrumental lines that were originally understood as such (i.e. instrumental). With the exception of I'm waiting for the day, and probably one or two more I can't think about right now, Brian never doubled vocal leads with an instrument. Unless this instrumental doubling of a lead melody is an arrangement trait brought by Van Dyke to the table... I believe he did/does double leads with instruments sometimes.

Thoughts? Info?

We've got two different answers in regards to whether or not the 'Holidays' lyrics are vintage or not, both from the same person.

Got a reply from Frank to my question re: the 1996 sketch featuring lyrical references to the 2004 track, thus:

"It all came from the lyrics of Holiday and my own bat as you say. The Milkyway candy bar was an easy way of not dealing with the actual Milky Way (too many stars)."

So... seems that most if not all of those lyrics are vintage.  

OK, here is my question, exactly as sent to Frank:

"I have a question about the 1996 illustration you did that has "ukulele lady Lili" and the Milky Way bar in it - did you do that from any of your old lyric sheets, or did Van Dyke clue you in, or did you just do it off your own bat ? Reason I'm asking is that when Brian did his 2004 version of Smile, there are some lyrics in it that seem to relate very precisely to that illustration."

Note, I expressly specified "old lyric sheets".

So Frank and I were exchanging emails recently, and I brought up the Holidays illustration in hopes of gleaning some more info.

My question: "The book included with the box set features an illustration of yours, dated 1996, that appears to accompany the song "Holidays" (the lazy moon, the ukulele lady, the Milky Way bar, etc.).  However, I was under the impression that "Holidays" didn't have lyrics until the music was revived in 2003-04.   Did Brian and/or Van Dyke provide those lyrics to you in the 1966-67 era?  Do you still have the lyric sheet you used to create that illustration?"

His (terse but direct) answer: "No lyrics from Brian or VDP. Holidays date mistake."

Humph.

[Autotune]

Thank you guys for the answers. Being so close to the 2004 facts; and with so many of the players still active and giving interviews, it's amazing how intricate and mysterious this issue still seems.

[astroray]

Now this is the kind stuff I like to read!

[JK]

"Is it hot as hell in here, or is it me..."

"...It really is a mystery"

These two lines strike me as being the key to the entire BWPS and help make it an entirely different animal to 1966/67 Smile and TSS.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I am sure this has been discussed before, so excuse in advance. I used to know my Smile sh*t until about 15 years ago, when I became more of a casual Smile fan. I celebrated the release of BWPS and the box set but never analyzed those very much.

My question has to do with the "new" vocal melodies/lyrics on the album. Are those 1966 vintage? Some of them are? Thinking about Worms, Hawaii, Holidays and such. My uninformed impression is that most of those vocal melodies are simply lyrics sung to instrumental lines that were originally understood as such (i.e. instrumental). With the exception of I'm waiting for the day, and probably one or two more I can't think about right now, Brian never doubled vocal leads with an instrument. Unless this instrumental doubling of a lead melody is an arrangement trait brought by Van Dyke to the table... I believe he did/does double leads with instruments sometimes.

Thoughts? Info?

We've got two different answers in regards to whether or not the 'Holidays' lyrics are vintage or not, both from the same person.

Got a reply from Frank to my question re: the 1996 sketch featuring lyrical references to the 2004 track, thus:

"It all came from the lyrics of Holiday and my own bat as you say. The Milkyway candy bar was an easy way of not dealing with the actual Milky Way (too many stars)."

So... seems that most if not all of those lyrics are vintage.  

OK, here is my question, exactly as sent to Frank:

"I have a question about the 1996 illustration you did that has "ukulele lady Lili" and the Milky Way bar in it - did you do that from any of your old lyric sheets, or did Van Dyke clue you in, or did you just do it off your own bat ? Reason I'm asking is that when Brian did his 2004 version of Smile, there are some lyrics in it that seem to relate very precisely to that illustration."

Note, I expressly specified "old lyric sheets".

So Frank and I were exchanging emails recently, and I brought up the Holidays illustration in hopes of gleaning some more info.

My question: "The book included with the box set features an illustration of yours, dated 1996, that appears to accompany the song "Holidays" (the lazy moon, the ukulele lady, the Milky Way bar, etc.).  However, I was under the impression that "Holidays" didn't have lyrics until the music was revived in 2003-04.   Did Brian and/or Van Dyke provide those lyrics to you in the 1966-67 era?  Do you still have the lyric sheet you used to create that illustration?"

His (terse but direct) answer: "No lyrics from Brian or VDP. Holidays date mistake."

Humph.

It is worth noting that in the AGD response, Holmes does not explicitly answer as to when he did the Holidays drawing. His response is more to the question of how did he conceive of the drawing, what was his source material, etc. The question AGD asked was not when did you do the drawings -- he simply includes the date in his question as if it is a given.

The Egon question specifically asks him if he did the drawing in 1996 and he explicitly answers no, he did not.

Seems to me that these are not two different answers really. He's answering two different questions. I think it's fairly safe to assume that the Holidays drawing was not done in 1996, as Holmes himself suggested and has never said otherwise.