Van Dyke Barks

[The Demon]

Brian on the other hand...  I've seen quite a few places where he's described as simply having a savant-ish ability.  My own original opinion of him was "as close to a savant as you'll get without actually being a savant".  That has since been amended to "probably has a bit of Asperger syndrome".  That is, enough autism to mess up his social abilities.  One of the key signs of Asperger is a lack of empathy (in this case, meaning the ability to understand what a person is experiencing from their frame of reference).  I don't think Brian actually understands how much he hurt Mike's feelings by going with Asher and then Van for lyrics.  Another trait of Asperger is a failure to react appropriately to social interaction.  Saw that plenty from Brian in the 70s.  That old RS article, Saving Brother Brian, it mentions Landy having to teach Brian how to interact with people (again).

I don't think Asperger explains Brian's weirdness.

I've thought he might have Asperger's too (and maybe it would be more obvious before the bad medications, etc.), though of course I'm not a psychologist and I don't know him.  But, based on what I've read of his social skills, his confidence/interest in limited areas (music), some of the ritualistic behavior (playing "Be My Baby" every morning), or possible stimming (the Linda Rondstadt story about working out a vocal arrangement while playing an unrelated pattern on the piano), it wouldn't surprise me.  Many people with Asperger's would take issue with the "lack of empathy," though.  It may appear that way to Neurotypicals on the outside, but that is not how many of them feel.  You seem to define the word better than some, but I'd say he had empathy, even if his social skills made it show differently.  He did cowrite "God Only Knows," after all.  There are many neurotypicals who would not express their souls and human emotions like Brian Wilson has.

[joshferrell]

I wonder if "Drip Drop" proves that he has Tourette's ?

[The Demon]

I wonder if "Drip Drop" proves that he has Tourette's ?

Sure.  What songs do you think would've been on Smile?

[Autotune]

I just heard Brian say in an interview this weekend that the "Rubber Soul" album was the best thing he had heard. He's been consistent on that for decades, saying the concept of a full album where the whole thing was "a gas" had been an inspiration to him to follow suit, and from that came the idea of his own album, Pet Sounds. Not as much a concept album (since that term was soon to be bastardized) but an interwoven set of songs that created a certain listening experience, doing what some of the Sinatra-Riddle classics of the 50's and Miles Davis and others had done for previous generations and in other genres. This one was for "the kids", and how Brian received and perceived Rubber Soul acted as his catalyst.

He needed a collaborator who he felt could develop an album where the tracks would all connect and flow for the listeners. Not as much a hit single or two and various tracks surrounding them, but interconnected songs that flowed in the way he had heard Rubber Soul. Make this one an "album" in a more literal sense than what industry practice in the "teen" genre had been focusing on. Make it one of those where listeners who may have bought it to have the singles in the past would now buy it, put it on the turntable, and listen to the continuous flow of the songs, again as he did with Rubber Soul.

Mike had been the collaborator for some of the bigger hits, alongside Gary Usher and Roger Christian earlier. They knew the lingo, they could turn a phrase, they could deliver what Brian needed on those compositions. For Mike, it as the hit single, the turn of a phrase that could translate the music and melody into words that resonated over the radio or on a 45rpm record or jukebox. He could come up with these hooks that made for solid radio singles.

But perhaps the ability to sustain a full album that was not being done as a collection of hits in concept but rather a full album experience was something Brian perhaps wanted to go with another collaborator. There is a difference between crafting a single based on a theme and creating a killer hook in order to present that song to the audience, and sustaining an underlying thematic current that runs from song to song and exists as a greater whole in the form of an album.

And just like he went to Roger Christian for the car lingo, just like he went to Gary Usher for certain themes, just like he went with Mike to deliver that commercial hook to put the song over the top, he didn't choose any of them to work on a full album. He went with Tony, obviously, for his answer to Rubber Soul's "the whole album is a gas" notion, and went with Van Dyke for the overreaching theme and concept that was to connect Smile as an album.

The hit single in between all of this was Good Vibrations. Was it originally designed to be a standalone hit single when it was cut for Pet Sounds? Probably not. When Brian wanted some elements for this as a single, his "hit single" collaborator who could come up with a hook was involved. When it came time to write a full album's worth of material around a theme or even with an undercurrent connecting the songs, he didn't involve the collaborator who was delivering the radio hooks. Because it's not what the project was about.

And this stands out how exactly as something to speculate or opine how Smile or anything else would have been had Mike done the lyrics? It's like asking what Pet Sounds would have been if Roger Christian had done the lyrics. The material and concepts being explored perhaps were not in their respective wheelhouses, whereas hot rod lingo from Christian and crafting hooks for a hit single from Mike was their strength. And consider how many Beach Boys "albums" prior to 1966 were pure Mike-Brian collaborations on each track versus a combination of various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler like Bull Session and Our Favorite Recording Sessions.

You are forgetting that not only did Brian and Mike co-write the band's #1 hits. Mike also experienced growth and maturity as a collaborator. Side two of Today! is enough proof of that. Good Vibrations is a glimpse of what Mike could have brought to the table for Brian's Smile ideas. And Wild Honey is an example of lyrical maturity from Mike and a collaboration between those two on an album that, if not conceptual, provided a listening experience as a whole. Not only Brian lost momentum with Smile. Mike's finest hour wasn't utilized enough.

[guitarfool2002]

Suggesting "Good Vibrations" is a glimpse of what Mike could have brought to Smile is like saying Don't Worry Baby is a glimpse of what Roger Christian could have brought to Pet Sounds if he had been asked to contribute. Point is, neither one happened and speculating about the quality good or bad if it somehow had happened is as helpful as trying to figure out if you had worn a different shirt and shoes yesterday whether you would have won the lottery. And beyond that, is there any indication Mike pitched any songwriting ideas at all to Brian during Smile, let's narrow it down to the time up to April-May 1967 for the first cut-off point? Did he bring anything to the table after Van Dyke was out? Second cut-off point, take the next few years when various Smile tracks were revisited, released piecemeal, in the case of Surf's Up it became the title track of an important album for the band...where was Mike's contribution to those? The band was a democracy, they all had a say in the records by 1971-72, so where was Mike to "punch up" the Smile material that was revisited and released if he could have brought so much to the original Smile table being speculated about here? What did he ever bring to the Smile tracks when he had the opportunity to do so on several occasions? Why didn't he rewrite the "crow cries" line into something more relatable to the audience on Cabinessence instead of releasing it almost verbatim as it existed in 1966 lyrically and musically? Why didn't he punch up Surf's Up into something more relatable than the original? All the band basically did there was use the 1966-67 structure, arrangement, form, and lyrics verbatim, graft on yet ANOTHER Smile track from the vaults verbatim...and  lo and behold the only guy who one day showed up and actually added something lyrically to the coda was Brian! Wonderful, Wind Chimes, what did Mike add there when the band needed songs for an album? The only example was He Gives Speeches, which was a throwaway to begin with that didn't even have a place anywhere on Smile and was left as a stray fragment, which they took and added some cool studio vari-speeding ELTRO effects to punch up what was basically a revamped Smile castoff.

His fastball as a collaborator was something like Do It Again, take a killer groove that's catchy by design, radio-ready sonically from that first drum beat, and punch it up even more with lyrics. The radio single, in other words. Assuming they'd be scoring hit after hit if Mike had been involved in more collaborations is almost absurd, because for a variety of reasons aside from the logic of the Roger Christian-Pet Sounds example, it just didn't happen. And when Mike could have taken a shot at bringing his lyrics to some Smile tracks, when he had probably the best chance to contribute and possibly improve as some here suggest the Smile material to reach a wider audience, it didn't happen either.

Maybe Mike didn't want anything to do with it as a writer, then or later. It's as valid as saying had he been involved the sun would have shone brightly on the band's fate and fortune and Smile would have been "a hit" because Good Vibrations was a #1 single. That's not logic, that's not analysis, that's pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's worth noting too that the more mature Mike Love lyrics on Today did not lead to great chart effects. Please Let Me Wonder went to #52 as a B-side and She Knows Me went to #101. While the previous Why Do Fools did a worse #120, these showings were ultimately much lower than Shut Down (#23), Little Deuce Coupe (#15), In My Room (#23), and Don't Worry Baby (#25).

[Autotune]

But guitarfool, claiming that Mike's fastball during the Smile year was to be limited to a Do It Again-type collaboration, or that the fact that did not re-work the lyrics to the Smile stuff that got released eventually is an indication of an inability to collaborate with Brian on Smile is more wildly speculative than my post. Your remark about Mike not pitching lyrics during Van Dyke's tenure as Brian's lyricist being an indication of lack of interest/will/skill (?) is hard to understand.  

Fact is Roger's lyrics to Don't Worry Baby show a sensitive side that good or bad was to remain unexplored later in time. The possible Pet Sounds collaboration is wild (absurd) speculation, but why would saying that he was capable of sensitive lyrics be off-base? Likewise, the Wilson-Love collaboration and its creative arch is for all to see; with Good Vibes he came up with lyrics that related beautifully to Brian's musical techniques that would be further explored on Smile, while reaching for audiences that Wilson-Parks never reached. I'm not just saying they would have remained putting out big hits, they could have achieved artistically-fulfilling results as well, and gotten the album finished (if we take Van's withdrawal as a cause for its abortion).

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Suggesting "Good Vibrations" is a glimpse of what Mike could have brought to Smile is like saying Don't Worry Baby is a glimpse of what Roger Christian could have brought to Pet Sounds if he had been asked to contribute. Point is, neither one happened and speculating about the quality good or bad if it somehow had happened is as helpful as trying to figure out if you had worn a different shirt and shoes yesterday whether you would have won the lottery. And beyond that, is there any indication Mike pitched any songwriting ideas at all to Brian during Smile, let's narrow it down to the time up to April-May 1967 for the first cut-off point? Did he bring anything to the table after Van Dyke was out? Second cut-off point, take the next few years when various Smile tracks were revisited, released piecemeal, in the case of Surf's Up it became the title track of an important album for the band...where was Mike's contribution to those? The band was a democracy, they all had a say in the records by 1971-72, so where was Mike to "punch up" the Smile material that was revisited and released if he could have brought so much to the original Smile table being speculated about here? What did he ever bring to the Smile tracks when he had the opportunity to do so on several occasions? Why didn't he rewrite the "crow cries" line into something more relatable to the audience on Cabinessence instead of releasing it almost verbatim as it existed in 1966 lyrically and musically? Why didn't he punch up Surf's Up into something more relatable than the original? All the band basically did there was use the 1966-67 structure, arrangement, form, and lyrics verbatim, graft on yet ANOTHER Smile track from the vaults verbatim...and  lo and behold the only guy who one day showed up and actually added something lyrically to the coda was Brian! Wonderful, Wind Chimes, what did Mike add there when the band needed songs for an album? The only example was He Gives Speeches, which was a throwaway to begin with that didn't even have a place anywhere on Smile and was left as a stray fragment, which they took and added some cool studio vari-speeding ELTRO effects to punch up what was basically a revamped Smile castoff.

His fastball as a collaborator was something like Do It Again, take a killer groove that's catchy by design, radio-ready sonically from that first drum beat, and punch it up even more with lyrics. The radio single, in other words. Assuming they'd be scoring hit after hit if Mike had been involved in more collaborations is almost absurd, because for a variety of reasons aside from the logic of the Roger Christian-Pet Sounds example, it just didn't happen. And when Mike could have taken a shot at bringing his lyrics to some Smile tracks, when he had probably the best chance to contribute and possibly improve as some here suggest the Smile material to reach a wider audience, it didn't happen either.

Maybe Mike didn't want anything to do with it as a writer, then or later. It's as valid as saying had he been involved the sun would have shone brightly on the band's fate and fortune and Smile would have been "a hit" because Good Vibrations was a #1 single. That's not logic, that's not analysis, that's pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

+1

Still...did Mike right the lyrics for Cant Wait Too Long ? That could be another glimpse if he did. I was gonna say Whistle In too, but that appears to have been solely Brian.

[Autotune]

It's worth noting too that the more mature Mike Love lyrics on Today did not lead to great chart effects. Please Let Me Wonder went to #52 as a B-side and She Knows Me went to #101. While the previous Why Do Fools did a worse #120, these showings were ultimately much lower than Shut Down (#23), Little Deuce Coupe (#15), In My Room (#23), and Don't Worry Baby (#25).

Those b sides did not score big, true. But within a year they would deliver three smash hits like Help Me Rhonda, Cal Girls and Good Vibes. So you've got everything covered: the hit aspect and the artistic side.

[Paul J B]

I think I find VDP's claim is more credible maybe unless Brian and Carl mean it in some way I don't get.

“For example, Good Vibrations, the cello. The man played the fundamental to the chords, and this is Jesse Ehrlich, he came in and played the cello, see, to make it right. Now I couldn’t play the cello. Brian went into the talkback  in the control booth, the first string player that he had ever assailed of such veteran ability and he said 'Barko, Barko, the man played Good Vibrations, Sound Sound the studio sensation'. It was no longer the performance, something tremendously individual happened that only improved the value of the group, to enforce the performance. I have a feeling that Good Vibrations is what guides me…”  VDP [LLVS p. 68]


“I worked as a studio musician for Brian Wilson during Pet Sounds, playing what he dictated on keyboards and marimba. I've always been gratified he accepted my suggestion for the cello triplets on 'Good Vibrations', so it can be said that I made one  clear musical contribution.” VDP 12/25/98

"I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music. I did that." VDP  http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2000-04-06/music.html


“I didn't casually suggest the cello in "Good Vibrations". In fact, the triplets in this pedal point became a signature part of the production. There was nothing casual about it. And it worked.” VDP  http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/texts/parks.html

Those links might be obsolete now.

A lot of I, I, I in those quotes. Also funny how after Carl died he felt the need to claim credit. I was not there and don't care that much. I'm sure VDP had some input in Brian's use of the cello's in Good Vibrations. And I'm sure Carl did too. Bottom line is Brian is the one that made the decision to use them on HIS composition. Brian is the one that did take after take to get the sound HE wanted. In those quotes VDP comes off as if GV would not have been the smash it was without his input. That is laughable.

It was not until I saw Love and Mercy that it hit me that after Brian worked with Asher, and before Brian worked with Parks, it was Brian and Mike that had the smash hit. It really explains a lot.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

And consider how many Beach Boys "albums" prior to 1966 were pure Mike-Brian collaborations on each track versus a combination of various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler like Bull Session and Our Favorite Recording Sessions.

Wasn't SMiLE heading that way too: various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler?  Not so certain on the "throwaway filler" except it might cover "Elements" or the supposed between track dialogues or some such.

Kinda. Various collaborators? Only if you think Tones would have made the cut. Cover songs? Gee was just a snippet in heroes that probably wouldnt have made the album cut. IWBA I strongly suspect wouldnt have either. It seems like OMP/YAMS would have, but as Ive been saying recently, I think the pairing is incredibly significant and gives this mashup track a whole other meaning outside the original context of those two songs on their own. IE, its not a straight cover songs so much as an experiment in making a new message from old material. Filler? No way. The Elements could have been a great instrumental if Fire is any indication. The Psych Skits may not have even been used (tho I think they would have) but if they were, theyd be important to one of the big themes of the album--that laughter and smiling (wink wink nudge) are the path to spiritual enlightenment.

[guitarfool2002]

But guitarfool, claiming that Mike's fastball during the Smile year was to be limited to a Do It Again-type collaboration, or that the fact that did not re-work the lyrics to the Smile stuff that got released eventually is an indication of an inability to collaborate with Brian on Smile is more wildly speculative than my post. Your remark about Mike not pitching lyrics during Van Dyke's tenure as Brian's lyricist being an indication of lack of interest/will/skill (?) is hard to understand.  

Fact is Roger's lyrics to Don't Worry Baby show a sensitive side that good or bad was to remain unexplored later in time. The possible Pet Sounds collaboration is wild (absurd) speculation, but why would saying that he was capable of sensitive lyrics be off-base? Likewise, the Wilson-Love collaboration and its creative arch is for all to see; with Good Vibes he came up with lyrics that related beautifully to Brian's musical techniques that would be further explored on Smile, while reaching for audiences that Wilson-Parks never reached. I'm not just saying they would have remained putting out big hits, they could have achieved artistically-fulfilling results as well, and gotten the album finished (if we take Van's withdrawal as a cause for its abortion).

I'm saying there is a limit that gets reached where speculation starts getting into fantasy, especially where reality is readily available. Did Mike add anything at all lyrically to Surfs Up, Cabinessence, Wonderful, Wind Chimes? No. He could have, especially the later ones when the band needed material to shape and fill their albums, but he did not. They used the lyrics almost 99% verbatim from the original Wilson-Parks songwriting collaboration, and the only person to add anything new was when Brian showed up and delivered the final lyric line in Surfs Up's coda. Where was Mike if he was filled to the brim with potential to bring the Good Vibrations lyrical and commercial magic to the Smile table? He didn't do anything! If the speculation is why he didn't after speculating that if he *did* things would have been better for the music and the band overall, that's anyone's choice speculate away, have a blast. But again, it's pure fantasy that has no conclusion.

I never said Mike's "fastball" was *limited* to Do It Again type radio singles, I just said that was his fastball which he delivered and which he could deliver. Could that be sustained over a whole album? Did the theme of certain albums call for that approach, or something different? Did Mike want to write full albums like that, did Brian want him to write full albums like that...it goes on and on as long as we want to spin the speculations into scenarios. But what happened...happened. Mike could deliver a hook for a hit single, that was his fastball. Maybe that's not always what the music needed, though. It's not a bust, it's not a dig at Mike, it's just the way it actually happened. God Only Knows turned out perfectly, as did California Girls, what happened is what ultimately served the songs best. Mike could have done God-Only-Knows what to God Only Knows too, maybe it would have hit #1 out of the gate, but the song is what it is in 2015 because Brian and Tony did what they thought was best for the song. Same with Brian and Van Dyke on Surf's Up, there's no point in even trying to suggest Mike would have made it better because the song is what it is and has it's rightful position in popular music history as of 2015 because of what it is, not what it could have been if another author took a shot at writing lyrics on top of it.

[SMiLE Brian]

BW looks to get collaborators that can express what he feels the time of a song's creation. ML, Gary Usher, and Roger Christian expressed youthful excess. Tony Asher and VDP expressed a maturing BW. Point is BW is the main force behind these collaborations.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's worth noting too that the more mature Mike Love lyrics on Today did not lead to great chart effects. Please Let Me Wonder went to #52 as a B-side and She Knows Me went to #101. While the previous Why Do Fools did a worse #120, these showings were ultimately much lower than Shut Down (#23), Little Deuce Coupe (#15), In My Room (#23), and Don't Worry Baby (#25).

Those b sides did not score big, true. But within a year they would deliver three smash hits like Help Me Rhonda, Cal Girls and Good Vibes. So you've got everything covered: the hit aspect and the artistic side.

Yes, and also Barbara Ann and Sloop John B. Those were huge hits too.

I suppose this is my point -- that as good as Mike Love's lyrics were, they were not the magic ingredients for the Beach Boys to make hits. Brian wrote commercial songs and he wrote less commercial songs, and he wrote non-commercial songs. As the Today! B-sides demonstrate, a great song with a great Mike Love lyric does not necessarily a hit make, even during the peak era. Consequently, I don't really think that Mike could have done anything to alter significantly what may have been the chart position of Smile (maybe it would have been high, maybe not). Again, though, I think Brian had a knack for knowing which songs needed which lyricist.

[Cam Mott]

Asher and Parks didn't write full albums with Brian. Brian and Mike had written as close to a full album as either fellow and Wilson/Love did write the entire WH album I believe. Is their something to support speculation that Mike wasn't asking or wasn't asked to contribute to PS/SMiLE era? IKTAA, SGB, GV for instance?

[Cam Mott]

I think I find VDP's claim is more credible maybe unless Brian and Carl mean it in some way I don't get.

“For example, Good Vibrations, the cello. The man played the fundamental to the chords, and this is Jesse Ehrlich, he came in and played the cello, see, to make it right. Now I couldn’t play the cello. Brian went into the talkback  in the control booth, the first string player that he had ever assailed of such veteran ability and he said 'Barko, Barko, the man played Good Vibrations, Sound Sound the studio sensation'. It was no longer the performance, something tremendously individual happened that only improved the value of the group, to enforce the performance. I have a feeling that Good Vibrations is what guides me…”  VDP [LLVS p. 68]


“I worked as a studio musician for Brian Wilson during Pet Sounds, playing what he dictated on keyboards and marimba. I've always been gratified he accepted my suggestion for the cello triplets on 'Good Vibrations', so it can be said that I made one  clear musical contribution.” VDP 12/25/98

"I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music. I did that." VDP  http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2000-04-06/music.html


“I didn't casually suggest the cello in "Good Vibrations". In fact, the triplets in this pedal point became a signature part of the production. There was nothing casual about it. And it worked.” VDP  http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/texts/parks.html

Those links might be obsolete now.

A lot of I, I, I in those quotes. Also funny how after Carl died he felt the need to claim credit. I was not there and don't care that much. I'm sure VDP had some input in Brian's use of the cello's in Good Vibrations. And I'm sure Carl did too. Bottom line is Brian is the one that made the decision to use them on HIS composition. Brian is the one that did take after take to get the sound HE wanted. In those quotes VDP comes off as if GV would not have been the smash it was without his input. That is laughable.

It was not until I saw Love and Mercy that it hit me that after Brian worked with Asher, and before Brian worked with Parks, it was Brian and Mike that had the smash hit. It really explains a lot.

OK, but is there anything that rules out his claims? What about Carl's claim quoted earlier?

[Cam Mott]

And consider how many Beach Boys "albums" prior to 1966 were pure Mike-Brian collaborations on each track versus a combination of various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler like Bull Session and Our Favorite Recording Sessions.

Wasn't SMiLE heading that way too: various collaborators, cover songs, Brian originals, Brian-Mike collaborations, and throwaway filler?  Not so certain on the "throwaway filler" except it might cover "Elements" or the supposed between track dialogues or some such.

Kinda. Various collaborators? Only if you think Tones would have made the cut. Cover songs? Gee was just a snippet in heroes that probably wouldnt have made the album cut. IWBA I strongly suspect wouldnt have either. It seems like OMP/YAMS would have, but as Ive been saying recently, I think the pairing is incredibly significant and gives this mashup track a whole other meaning outside the original context of those two songs on their own. IE, its not a straight cover songs so much as an experiment in making a new message from old material. Filler? No way. The Elements could have been a great instrumental if Fire is any indication. The Psych Skits may not have even been used (tho I think they would have) but if they were, theyd be important to one of the big themes of the album--that laughter and smiling (wink wink nudge) are the path to spiritual enlightenment.

Yeah "kinda" or debatable on a couple of points but still OMP, YAMS, IWBA (I didn't count "Gee") are covers and VDP didn't collaborate on every songwriting and there was Wilson/Love collab so not really different from every proceeding album.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

Some would, yes. Some DID. Those are the ones who bought Smiley. But the more casual fans, the curious people who may have bought SMiLE just from reading about all the hype, the non-fans who heard and loved GV on the radio, the hip counterculture kids who wanted to hear how a surfer band would tackle psychedelia, etc...all THOSE people, those potential buyers and new audiences were lost. Thats what you dont seem to get. Yes, they had a core group of fans whod buy anything Beach Boys, but SMiLE was a big chance to change with the times and reach out to new people in a way Smiley wasnt. And again, Id argue a significant number of people who loved the Boys gave up on them before Smiley came out or else just after. Between scrapping SMiLE, cancelling on Monterey, and then releasing this seemingly lazy album that sounds NOTHING like Pepper or the Doors or Jimi or any of the other cool psychedelic music...they must have seemed like a band spiraling out of control to most of their old fans. A bunch of out-of-touch dinosaurs who ought to make way for the new generation of rock stars. Im sure a lot of their lesser fans just straight-up forgot about them in the long span of time between GV and Smiley. After experiencing Pepper, Hendrix lighting a guitar on fire at Monterey, all these new experimental bands like the Airplane and Pink Floyd coming out...Im sure for a lot of them it was like "Beach Boys? Beach Boys who?" and when no big singles came off the new album that was the death knell.

Honestly, this seems completely logical to me. No one factor could explain the failure of Smiley, but all of those all at once? Absolutely. It has nothing to do with SMiLE being uncommercial. SMiLE is irrelevant to why Smiley failed. SMiLE would have debuted under totally different circumstances so we cant base how it would have charted off Smiley's performance.

[Cam Mott]

I think I remember Brian saying he asked VDP to collab because he was a good talker or something.

I wonder if Brian invited VDP with an expectation of lyrics like VDP's original lyrics on two songs and the religious covers of two songs on VDP's first two singles?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If smile did come out way back when it probably would have been heralded as the greatest album of all time, lord knows how many millions it would have sold and what it would have done for Van's career.

Maybe as he get's older it's been bothering him more that smile got shelved and holds some resentment towards Brian for it.

I don't know, in my opinion it's the only way to explain Van's cheap shots at Brian.

It would have been a commercial disappointment -- too arty for the mainstream, too pop for the counterculture. I can see it having become a cult hit critically, though, along the lines of 'Forever Changes'.

Much better for Brian's rep that it went unreleased, so as to develop its legend as a lost masterpiece.

I'm sorry but this myth really needs to die.

Pet Sounds went top ten and its sales were underreported by Capitol so it probably did even better. They were voted the #1 group in the world. GV was #1 and their biggest hit yet. They were just as hot as they ever were. Capitol hyped up SMiLE big time. The Brian is a genius mantra was ramping up and getting people excited. SMiLE very well could have went #1 had it come out in January as planned. It probably would have went top ten as long as it came out prior to June and was at least released neck and neck with Pepper.

I'm not sure why the "Pet Sounds flopped"/"SMiLE would have flopped" talking points are so prevalent but they have no basis in fact. Sgt Pepper is pop. I'd say even outright fluff. And it went number one and for reasons I still can't figure out, got hailed as some innovative masterpiece. SMiLE is ten times are innovative. It's also more daring, in how it tackles mature themes in an unapologetic way while seamlessly merging them with the classic Beach Boys sound.

It may not have been as impactful at the time as Pepper just because the Beatles are the Beatles. But it would have been a hit. People who appreciate great music would have respected it over Pepper. And as time wore on, it's stature would grow, similar to Pet Sounds, to where it would be hailed as the best album from 1967. Of that, I'm sure.

SMiLE not coming out in 1967 isn't good. It severely damaged Brian's confidence and the band's reputation. It robbed the musical world of a masterpiece and the counterculture of a more worthy banner to rally behind.  

I don't agree at all. I'm fairly sure Smile would have been a commercial flop and think Clack is on the money with his Forever Changes comparison. Yes Pet Sounds was successful but Smile and Pet Sounds are very different. Pet Sounds has universally relatable material - anybody with a heartbeat can connect with the themes of young love and heartbreak - Wouldn't It Be Nice, God Only Knows, Sloop John B - commercial radio friendly hits then and now - I don't see any Smile song bar Good Vibrations showing up in an Adam Sandler movie any time soon. I'm convinced VDP's lyrics would have stymied any commercial potential the album had. But VDP isn't to blame. Dylan got away with obscure, arty lyrics and sold sh*t loads of records but 'hip poet' was his whole oeuvre and a very saleable image at the time. Sgt Pepper is oblique at times but somehow manages to package the LSD experience into something universal. (You consistently underestimate the quality of that album. It isn't just a case of it sounding less complex/more shallow than Smile and therefore being not as good.) VDP's lyrics were too at odds with the BBs existing image (and existing market) and I think therein lies the problem. Folks were just not ready to buy that band producing those far out sounds, however incredible the music would prove itself to be.

Also I think it's worthing raising the issue of sex appeal. Smile is not sexy music. It's cerebral, complex, genius stuff but it doesn't strike me as sexy in any way, shape or form, with the exception of, maybe, Good Vibrations. The Beatles were sexy and (if we're focusing on the Sgt Pepper album) a lot of the tracks touch on boy girl themes - the opening track has that sexy Hendrix riff, lennon's cynical, sneery psycho-sexual weirdness permeates much of his songs, plus Paul's wide-eyed cutesy stuff - It's an arguably sexy album. Dylan's sex appeal is self evident. But Smile? Roll Plymouth Rock?? Heroes and Villains??? And let's not even get into Vegatables!!

The Beach Boys could produce testosterone-fuelled, sexy records when they addressed teenage, californian themes of surfing, hot rods etc. - metaphors for sex. But Smile with its whole Amercian expansion thing ... It's more like a history lesson! I love it, but it is not sexy and as we all know - sex sells  

I think we can all agree that not showing up in an Adam Sandler movie is a good thing All the same, I do see what you mean but I disagree. SMiLE is universal. It takes some thinking and putting yourself into it, but the themes and lessons are universal and poignant. Its NOT just goofy songs about Vega-Tables, it forces us to come to terms with the problems of our culture past and present, to cherish the innocence of children and realize that our actions have consequences on people (Wonderful and CIFOTM tie into that well). It's all about the search for a new religious/spiritual ethos and self-actualization. Granted, these arent as easily digestable ideas as "pretty girl, lets date/breakups are sad" but its still universal.

I cant stress enough either...it was 1967. Literally THE year for far out music. If the roles were reversed and Pepper never came out, I could see someone like you making the same arguments for that. "Oh, its about a circus poster...who can relate to that? Thats not a hit song!"

I agree the lyrics are the least commercial thing about it. But again, I think you could say that about a lot of songs from that year. White Rabbit? The lyrics make no literal sense. Astronomy Domine? "Neptune Titan Stars Can Frighten" whats that even mean? I could go on. It wasnt about making literal sense or getting it on the first listen. These psychedelic rock lyrics were about painting a picture. Using specific phrases and descriptions of abstract things to set a mood and tickle the imagination. I see VDP's SMiLE lyrics as the same kind of thing. Granted, Pink Floyd and JA didnt have to throw off a reputation of simpler soft rock/vocal pop, but still. The Beatles threw off the yoke. If the music was good enough (and it fucking was) I think people would give them a chance. They already proved they had the stuff with GV. Again, #1 hit, Capitol hype train, Brian is a genius campaign, voted best band in the world...this all does not equal a flop. It just doesnt. Maybe some returns/disappointed old fans, but not a flop. And as the Beatles said, they gained new fans with their new direction.

With all due respect, could you or someone else please tell me whats so great about Pepper? I asked this in depth in another thread where the subject came up between us both but you didnt answer. Aside from influencing other people, is that really the gist of it--that its watered down psychedelia? And thats somehow good because it got the masses interested in that kinda music? Again, not to sound snotty but I really dont see the supposed brilliance.

Ill agree that SMiLE isnt "sexy music" but Id argue that neither are the Beatles. Jim Morrison? Jimi Hendrix? (Especially) Grace Slick? Now *that* is sexy. Four former moptops in rainbow band uniforms singing about holes and meter maids? Im not so sure.

[Mike's Beard]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

Bullshit. Smiley didn't come out until September, nearly a year after it's intended release and about 6 months after the hype died. By then, the Beach Boys had missed Monterey and were starting to be considered uncool. Everyone knew SMiLE, the much anticipated supposed masterwork was scrapped. Anyone who did buy it was probably severely disappointed that it not only didn't sound like the psychedelic rock that was dominating but it didn't sound like the Beach Boys either. I imagine word of mouth was probably disastrous.

Sorry but the success or failure of the two are completely unrelated. Too many variables had changed for us to be able to use Smiley as a comparison.

If people had wanted to buy the next Beach Boys album they would have, be it in early '67 or September. H&V not making the top 10 was a good indication that the established fanbase was divided by Brian's new direction. For all it's on the surface weirdness, Good Vibrations was at it's core still a pop song. Nothing else on Smile/Smiley had that balance and sales suffered.
The hype machine in GV's wake would have undoubedly sold more copies of Smile but nothing on a huge scale.

Some would, yes. Some DID. Those are the ones who bought Smiley. But the more casual fans, the curious people who may have bought SMiLE just from reading about all the hype, the non-fans who heard and loved GV on the radio, the hip counterculture kids who wanted to hear how a surfer band would tackle psychedelia, etc...all THOSE people, those potential buyers and new audiences were lost. Thats what you dont seem to get. Yes, they had a core group of fans whod buy anything Beach Boys, but SMiLE was a big chance to change with the times and reach out to new people in a way Smiley wasnt. And again, Id argue a significant number of people who loved the Boys gave up on them before Smiley came out or else just after. Between scrapping SMiLE, cancelling on Monterey, and then releasing this seemingly lazy album that sounds NOTHING like Pepper or the Doors or Jimi or any of the other cool psychedelic music...they must have seemed like a band spiraling out of control to most of their old fans. A bunch of out-of-touch dinosaurs who ought to make way for the new generation of rock stars. Im sure a lot of their lesser fans just straight-up forgot about them in the long span of time between GV and Smiley. After experiencing Pepper, Hendrix lighting a guitar on fire at Monterey, all these new experimental bands like the Airplane and Pink Floyd coming out...Im sure for a lot of them it was like "Beach Boys? Beach Boys who?" and when no big singles came off the new album that was the death knell.

Honestly, this seems completely logical to me. No one factor could explain the failure of Smiley, but all of those all at once? Absolutely. It has nothing to do with SMiLE being uncommercial. SMiLE is irrelevant to why Smiley failed. SMiLE would have debuted under totally different circumstances so we cant base how it would have charted off Smiley's performance.

Clearly the band failing to strike while the iron was hot did them no favours but it doesn't automatically mean Smile would have sold zillions while Smiley didn't.
Also you seem to be making the assumption that everyone would have loved Smile when in reality many were turned off by Smiley. We'll never know for sure and they very well could have but to say it's an open/shut case that Smile would have been massive and gained the band a whole new fanbase is revisionist speculation.
It's also worth noting that the Beach Boys would have probably had a much better chance of selling their new type of music after The Beatles had opened up the doors for psychedelic music in the mainstream with Pepper.

[Kurosawa]

  Van Dyke and Mike should go in a room to write songs. Maybe they don't need old Brian Wilson. 

They definitely need to screw and get it over with.

[CenturyDeprived]

 Van Dyke and Mike should go in a room to write songs. Maybe they don't need old Brian Wilson.  

They definitely need to screw and get it over with.

Nah... The screwjob happened many moons ago; Mike should just cut Van a check for a few mil, out of the goodness of his heart, as an apology for partially derailing SMiLE.

[buddhahat]

With all due respect, could you or someone else please tell me whats so great about Pepper? I asked this in depth in another thread where the subject came up between us both but you didnt answer. Aside from influencing other people, is that really the gist of it--that its watered down psychedelia? And thats somehow good because it got the masses interested in that kinda music? Again, not to sound snotty but I really dont see the supposed brilliance.

It's difficult to explain what's great about the Beatles without rolling out tired old cliches. Also, as a disclaimer, Pepper is no where near my favourite album but here's my take fwiw:

LSD culture demanded a new type of music. This posed a massive challenge for established groups - how to adapt whilst still maintaining one's identity and without alienating an existing fanbase. The Rolling Stones and The Beach Boys were two casualties from the summer of love. However much one might love Smile/Satanic Majesties they were problematic albums for both bands (an understatement in the BB's case). With Pepper, The Beatles managed to create:

a) an album of great pop songs. With A Little Help From My Friends would've been a standard were it written by any band. Most of the songs are so freakin hummable and tuneful that (like most Beatles output) they've become sort of folk songs, school hymns, musical equivalent of the establishment - i.e boring and to be railed at. But that doesn't diminish the brilliance of the music as pop music.

b) but the songs weren't just simple constructions. A Day In The Life is complex and ambitious. It should be a pompous disaster but the marriage of Lennon & McCartney's two disparate songs via the mounting crescendo is genius - it flows, tells a story, feels natural, building to the climax of that one ominous chord. Imagine how many heads were blown by that piano note at the end?! What does it mean? I don't know, but it's ambiguous, open to interpretation - pop music as art. The genius of the song is in its structure and organisation.

We may well hear more interesting, complex music from the Smile sessions but the point is Brian and VDP never managed to organise it into a cohesive statement the way The Beatles and George Martin did with Pepper. A Day In The Life is the flashpoint of the album - the rest of it really is just great pop music for me building to that incredible moment. Surf's Up is the equivalent song from Smile and I see it fulfilling the same sort of function with its (gentler) crescendo and profound release at the end. If only they'd built and finished the album to house that masterpiece.

Mujan, I share your frustrations as do most of us. We hear Cabinessence, SU, H&V, Good Vibrations and marvel at the technicolour brilliance that simultaneously feels like a saturday morning cartoon and the great American novel - high and low art in perfect synthesis. If only they'd organised this stuff into an album it would've been the greatest art pop masterpiece* in the history of music, right? But the question is: Can it be organised in a way that does justice to the potential of those songs? In a way that cements all the bands' prior achievements whilst simultaneously looking forward and influencing other bands in its wake? Brian and VDP didn't manage it. However that really is what Sgt Pepper did for The Beatles imo and that is why I hold the album in such high regard, despite having many other Beatles albums that I actually prefer to listen to.


* critical, not commercial  

[Moon Dawg]

That Smiley couldn't break the top 40 is a good indication that Smile wouldn't have sold huge amounts.

  No. SMILE would have been released in Jan, right after "Good Vibrations" hit #1. SMILEY came out in Sept: the world had shifted in radical fashion those intervening months.