no more legends, the cynical honest retrospective..

[kookadams]

The Beach Boys were 100% self created legends. When they came onto the scene rockNroll was in its infancy and they defined the progressive era of pop culture. Brian along with George Martin, Jan Berry and Phil Spector epitomized not only the peak of everything we know today but he survived the kinda turmoil that destroyed most and now in retrospect the world has not just the nostalgia but an output that was and is way above anything that remains to be seen. Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some because ya cant rewrite history. The sales, the popularity, the permanent place in pop culture thatll forever be in history books...think about it- every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles, a couple years in the limelight but the BBs had over a dozen amazing albums that every serious collector knows and loves, two dozen songs that everyone knows...in todays modern world the word legend refers to the greats of mid-20th century, there are no legends of today in the making and its just a reflection of what the world's become. I didnt have the privilege of existing in that golden era but as a young musician I feel obligated to pay homage whenever and wherever I can.

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[Lee Marshall]

Not sure that the similarities are such that one can legitimately compare 'then' to 'now'.

The top 30 was the top 50 back then.  Singles dominated sales until album sales took over around 1976...around the same time that FM overtook AM radio in the ratings.  Still most folks were listening to the same handful of local radio stations and watching the same shows on TV.  The whole generation by and large shared the 'experience' together.

Nowadays everyone is ghettoized.  And we're watching and listening to hundreds of different options many of which are taylor-made for the one-track mind.  I think that I can boldly sit here and type that LESS was M O R E.  Way more.

Looking back doesn't provide the perspective.  Living it did.  I'm living THIS...here and now.  Music went tumbling down the friggin' hill right at the time that music videos began to dictate what music we WATCHED.  And what we watched is what the radio played.  Radio?  Playing music for the eyes?  Well that was NEVER going to work.

Now the whole industry is in the shitter.  Why?  Because music was, is and always will be for the ears...for the heart and for the soul.  [unless you wanna dance...and 'lard nose' we ALL wanna dance 24 hours a friggin' day/7 days a friggin' week]

Put fools in charge.  Works everytime.  Saves money.  The shareholders pocket their dividends and the executives cash their bonus cheques while *WE* all complain about how it's all gone to hell in a handbasket.


No...the 60s were nothing like 'today'.  Thank GAWD.

[petsite]

One thing that has ALWAYS troubled me (tho its happening less and less today) is that George Martin did ALOT for the Beatles and they would not as iconic without him, yet people were reluctant to give him credit. Back in the day (I am old enough to remember) people would say "I don't even know what Martin does, just sit there and watch the truly talented at work then collect a check." There really was that attitude, even among people that should have known better (I am looking right at you Jann Wenner!).

Martin once commented that he and Paul were talking around 1965 while listening to the Beach Boys:

PM:"who writes the music?"
GM:"Brian."
PM:"Who arranged and produces them?"
GM:"Brian"
PM:"Its not bloody fair that he has all that talent."
GM:"No it isnt (of course this was all said while laughing)."

[Mikie]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ESQ Editor]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian Wilson is the Lorne Michaels of the 1960s.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian Wilson is the Lorne Michaels of the 1960s.

That's funny because I've always made a direct comparison between Mike Love and Chevy Chase.

Also, while George Martin may have been under-estimated at one point, he is also over-estimated by people who seek to de-value the talent of The Beatles. Especially in comparison with their own personal favourite artists...

[rab2591]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's alot of "A"s and "H"s there, Mikie!

[runnersdialzero]

The Beach Boys were 100% self created legends. When they came onto the scene rockNroll was in its infancy and they defined the progressive era of pop culture. Brian along with George Martin, Jan Berry and Phil Spector epitomized not only the peak of everything we know today but he survived the kinda turmoil that destroyed most and now in retrospect the world has not just the nostalgia but an output that was and is way above anything that remains to be seen. Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some because ya cant rewrite history. The sales, the popularity, the permanent place in pop culture thatll forever be in history books...think about it- every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles, a couple years in the limelight but the BBs had over a dozen amazing albums that every serious collector knows and loves, two dozen songs that everyone knows...in todays modern world the word legend refers to the greats of mid-20th century, there are no legends of today in the making and its just a reflection of what the world's become. I didnt have the privilege of existing in that golden era but as a young musician I feel obligated to pay homage whenever and wherever I can.

You forgot the most important part: that they inspired The Ramones.

[Nicko1234]

The Beach Boys were 100% self created legends. When they came onto the scene rockNroll was in its infancy and they defined the progressive era of pop culture. Brian along with George Martin, Jan Berry and Phil Spector epitomized not only the peak of everything we know today but he survived the kinda turmoil that destroyed most and now in retrospect the world has not just the nostalgia but an output that was and is way above anything that remains to be seen. Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some because ya cant rewrite history. The sales, the popularity, the permanent place in pop culture thatll forever be in history books...think about it- every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles, a couple years in the limelight but the BBs had over a dozen amazing albums that every serious collector knows and loves, two dozen songs that everyone knows...in todays modern world the word legend refers to the greats of mid-20th century, there are no legends of today in the making and its just a reflection of what the world's become. I didnt have the privilege of existing in that golden era but as a young musician I feel obligated to pay homage whenever and wherever I can.

Something tells me that in 1968 people were not talking about The Beach Boys as being legends in the making...

And I`m not sure it can be said that, "every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles" because there are plenty of bands and singers who had much more continued success than The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys run of top ten hits lasted from 1963 to 1966 which is a relatively short period of time. They just crammed a heck of a lot into it.

[clack]

Not sure that the similarities are such that one can legitimately compare 'then' to 'now'.

The top 30 was the top 50 back then.  Singles dominated sales until album sales took over around 1976...around the same time that FM overtook AM radio in the ratings.  Still most folks were listening to the same handful of local radio stations and watching the same shows on TV.  The whole generation by and large shared the 'experience' together.

Nowadays everyone is ghettoized.  And we're watching and listening to hundreds of different options many of which are taylor-made for the one-track mind.  I think that I can boldly sit here and type that LESS was M O R E.  Way more.

Looking back doesn't provide the perspective.  Living it did.  I'm living THIS...here and now.  Music went tumbling down the friggin' hill right at the time that music videos began to dictate what music we WATCHED.  And what we watched is what the radio played.  Radio?  Playing music for the eyes?  Well that was NEVER going to work.

Now the whole industry is in the shitter.  Why?  Because music was, is and always will be for the ears...for the heart and for the soul.  [unless you wanna dance...and 'lard nose' we ALL wanna dance 24 hours a friggin' day/7 days a friggin' week]

Put fools in charge.  Works everytime.  Saves money.  The shareholders pocket their dividends and the executives cash their bonus cheques while *WE* all complain about how it's all gone to hell in a handbasket.


No...the 60s were nothing like 'today'.  Thank GAWD.

I think you transposed some digits there -- albums began outselling singles in 1967, not 1976.

[runnersdialzero]

Oasis is better than The Beatles in every way and I'm not trolling in the slightest.

[Lee Marshall]

"I think you transposed some digits there -- albums began outselling singles in 1967, not 1976."

In North America...I think it was actually '78...not '76.  67?  Not a chance.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some

More than those things, it's a false statement.

because ya cant rewrite history.

True. Such as the fact that The Beatles were already the most popular band in Liverpool before they had ever heard of George Martin and they were widely considered by their peers to be the best band as early as 1962. And while George Martin found it all but impossible to break the pop charts before The Beatles and never had anywhere near the kind of chart success with other pop bands throughout the 60s that he had with The Beatles, the four solo Beatles without George Martin sold millions of records, from All Things Must Pass to Ringo to "Imagine," to Band on the Run, "Whatever Gets You Through the Night," "Mull of Kintyre" and so on.

Of course, I don't want to underestimate George Martin's work - he was a very important element in the band. But to characterize him as a puppet master simply reveals an unawareness of the history.

[Mikie]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's alot of "A"s and "H"s there, Mikie!

Could ya hear me that far, Rab?  "ALOT" is not a word!  That would drive an English teacher bonkers!

[Ron]

The Beach Boys were 100% self created legends. When they came onto the scene rockNroll was in its infancy and they defined the progressive era of pop culture. Brian along with George Martin, Jan Berry and Phil Spector epitomized not only the peak of everything we know today but he survived the kinda turmoil that destroyed most and now in retrospect the world has not just the nostalgia but an output that was and is way above anything that remains to be seen. Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some because ya cant rewrite history. The sales, the popularity, the permanent place in pop culture thatll forever be in history books...think about it- every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles, a couple years in the limelight but the BBs had over a dozen amazing albums that every serious collector knows and loves, two dozen songs that everyone knows...in todays modern world the word legend refers to the greats of mid-20th century, there are no legends of today in the making and its just a reflection of what the world's become. I didnt have the privilege of existing in that golden era but as a young musician I feel obligated to pay homage whenever and wherever I can.

It's easy to feel this way sometimes, man, but long before Brian Wilson was born, Ludwig Beethoven lived.  When Beethoven died, people stood out in the street around his house and mourned that the greatest composer that ever lived died, surely there would never be another.


.... and they were right!  There never was another.  However, 140 years later your friend and mine Brian Wilson was born.  Now you're sitting here lamenting that the Beach Boys won't be around much longer but haven't said 1 fucking word about Beethoven. 

My point is, there will always be legends, and it doesn't diminish the other legends that came before them.  Time is a funny thing, I don't understand it anymore than you do. 

[pixletwin]

Also, while George Martin may have been under-estimated at one point, he is also over-estimated by people who seek to de-value the talent of The Beatles. Especially in comparison with their own personal favourite artists...

Nail meet hammer.

[bgas]

George Martin did ALOT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's alot of "A"s and "H"s there, Mikie!

Could ya hear me that far, Rab?  "ALOT" is not a word!  That would drive an English teacher bonkers!

MAN! You just gotta LOVE someone like that ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mikie]

Yeah, you two ought to get together!

[runnersdialzero]

sleep alot
eat alot
brush alot like crazy
run alot
do alot
never be alot

[Wirestone]

I choose to believe that there can be many geniuses and brilliant artists. In the past and the present.

[Lee Marshall]

I choose to believe that there can be many geniuses and brilliant artists. In the past and the present.

I agree with THAT.  They don't all get played on the radio or TV though.  Quality is all too often misrepresented by quantity.

[filledeplage]

The Beach Boys were 100% self created legends. When they came onto the scene rockNroll was in its infancy and they defined the progressive era of pop culture. Brian along with George Martin, Jan Berry and Phil Spector epitomized not only the peak of everything we know today but he survived the kinda turmoil that destroyed most and now in retrospect the world has not just the nostalgia but an output that was and is way above anything that remains to be seen. Yeah the Beatles get the most credit but whether or not its acknowledged George Martin was to them what Jim Henson was to the Muppets and I dont care if thats a bold statement or asinine to some because ya cant rewrite history. The sales, the popularity, the permanent place in pop culture thatll forever be in history books...think about it- every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles, a couple years in the limelight but the BBs had over a dozen amazing albums that every serious collector knows and loves, two dozen songs that everyone knows...in todays modern world the word legend refers to the greats of mid-20th century, there are no legends of today in the making and its just a reflection of what the world's become. I didnt have the privilege of existing in that golden era but as a young musician I feel obligated to pay homage whenever and wherever I can.

Something tells me that in 1968 people were not talking about The Beach Boys as being legends in the making...

And I`m not sure it can be said that, "every "legend" had a couple definitive albums and singles" because there are plenty of bands and singers who had much more continued success than The Beach Boys. The Beach Boys run of top ten hits lasted from 1963 to 1966 which is a relatively short period of time. They just crammed a heck of a lot into it.

There might not have been "legend talk" but it was a "given" that the music would sustainable over time, because of the wide range of covered topics, the novel instrumentation, (theremin) and notwithstanding the political times, it might not have been on the "front burner" but on "simmer" on the back burner, while the old storm blowing "winds of change" had the music in a vortex in sort of a holding pattern, sort of "marking time" until things got better with the Vietnam War end, and other strife.   

There was a corpus of eight years of recording, just waiting to be reborn.  It came in 1975-6 with the US bicentennial, our home-grown band. 

Lot of bands had three year windows, but none or few had the solid music that would eventually appeal to all ages.   

And those who knew it would eventually come around, have had the most delicious last laugh! 

[Howie Edelson]

Kook -

I don’t wanna get into a thing here, because ultimately your point is that he Beach Boys are amazing, and it never fails to give you something special that you need (whether it’s the songs, the production, the backstory, whatever) I’m with you. I would love everybody to “get” that. Where I have a problem is the “my team is best” syndrome. Because ultimately, it’s no different than “my wife is more beautiful to me than YOURS is to me.” It’s the worst way to celebrate or share something. And the proof -- not subjective -- is that the Beatles are the biggest and most beloved (for good reason.) They are the standard bearers and were from the moment that Brian first heard them. No one loves the BB’s more than me, but as Brian and Al will tell you -- and Dennis and Carl if they were here today -- there’s the Beatles and then everything else.

Certain facts need to be stressed: The brilliant, beautiful, EVERY TIME groundbreaking Beatles (insanely the BANE of so many BB-fans existence it seems) were never the “Muppets” to George Martin's Jim Henson. Ever. That’s as incorrect as saying “water is dry.” Martin was a gifted arranger and facilitator. (Love, love, love the horns on “Martha My Dear”) -- saying that they were his pawns in any manner makes you prove A) you don’t read credits on LP’s or know the history of the Beatles and B) have missed the point of a true wonder of the world. Like a Mets fan who refuses to acknowledge the Yankees won the World Series because they "hate" the Yankees. It’s exactly that and one of the most immature parts of fandom.

Phil Spector, who was great, was NOT timeless. He was timely. And was effective enough in his time to create records that still work today. But it was (honestly) a four-year-run, with a LOT of help on every level -- the writing, the arranging, the performing, the singing, even -- yes -- the "production." Fats Domino was great in his time too, but then there came a time when it didn’t matter.

CUE: Jan Berry.

I think it’s hysterical that Jan Berry gets lumped in with ANY of these people. That’s how marginal his output was. It’s fetish music and as far away as you can get when discussing even the worst of John Lennon and Paul McCartney. I’m all for people talking about Jan Berry (always was fascinated by the post-accident material e.g. “Natural High”) but to SERIOUSLY place him anywhere near John Lennon and Paul McCartney (or Brian Wilson, for that matter) is silly, amateur, and absolutely incorrect. I’m not saying he can’t be a favorite of yours or even THE favorite. Talk about him all you want -- but his peers were Gary Lewis and Freddie Cannon, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mike's Beard]

This thread needs more mentions of The Ramones.