Brian & Phil Spector

[kwan_dk]

I'm a big fan of the Wall of Sound and started a blog about Phil Spector's productions and similar music some months ago. My most recent post deals with the influence Spector's sound had on Brian in the 60s and the difference between their respective work. You can check it out here:

https://cuecastanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/would-be-spectors-4-brian-wilson/

Writing that post got me thinking;

... which direction do you think Brian's musical growth would have taken during the early to mid-60s if he hadn't been enamored by Spector's stuff?

Do you think his respect for, say, the Beatles would have shone through much more clearly in his own work? For instance resulting in more Beatles-esque songs like Girl Don't Tell Me? You also often hear about his admiration for Burt Bacharach, but aside from Guess I'm Dumb and the short cover of Walk On By I have a hard time picking that up from his songs back then. Maybe that influence would have been much more pronounced without Spector's shadow looming over him.

It's all speculation of course but interesting to think about nevertheless.

I've always been intrigued by the relationship, or lack thereof, between these two musical giants. It's amazing that they were working almost alongside each other at the same time in the same city with the same musicians. I guess it was inevitable that Brian would feel inspired by what he saw and heard from Spector...

[clack]

I find Brian's production/arrangement techniques quite distinct from Spector's. Brian is transparent, Spector is opaque -- a window of sound as opposed to a wall.

I'm not as familiar with Nitzsche's early work. His 1967-68 work with Neil Young, with which I am more familiar, strikes me also as being quite different from Spector's Wall of Sound -- tremulous and ruminative. How would you define Spector's effects? Energetic? Exhilarating? Anyway, objective where Brian and Nitzche are subjective. I get the impression that Phil didn't spend a lot of time in self-reflection.

[Lee Marshall]

I hear that.  Brian, to these ears, really and truly understood nuance.  He could feel it.  As a result...we were the winners.  Ol' Phil kind of tried to shove nuance up yer keester...with an added wall of gusto.

[kwan_dk]

I find Brian's production/arrangement techniques quite distinct from Spector's. Brian is transparent, Spector is opaque -- a window of sound as opposed to a wall.

I'm not as familiar with Nitzsche's early work. His 1967-68 work with Neil Young, with which I am more familiar, strikes me also as being quite different from Spector's Wall of Sound -- tremulous and ruminative. How would you define Spector's effects? Energetic? Exhilarating? Anyway, objective where Brian and Nitzche are subjective. I get the impression that Phil didn't spend a lot of time in self-reflection.

A window of sound - that's a nice description. Brian's overall sound definately gave more room to breathe in than Spector's and overall had a much lighter, nuanced touch - even on the songs where he seemed to specifically aim for a Wall of Sound.

It has of course a lot to do with the acoustics of Gold Star Studios and its famed echo chambers. That rumble and mushiness when a full band recorded there was unique and a key component of Spector's sound and succes - and I guess that's also why guys like Nitzsche or Jerry Riopelle were able to record songs there which were just as powerful and otherwordly-sounding as Spector's best work imho.

Personally, I think Spector's approach covered all ends of the spectrum - some of his songs I find exhilarating such as Da Doo Ron Ron or Fine Fine Boy, others heartbreakingly and gripping like 'Lovin' Feeling' or 'Wish I Never Saw the Sunshine'. But that increasingly cavernous, gargantuan sound was what ran through it all and eventually became his downfall, I guess. I think it did make him put himself in a corner - if all your releases get bigger and more monstrous, and you are known for that sound, do you dare go back and scale down your approach?

Spector certainly didn't, at least during the 60s, and that was his mistake. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that he craved the attention and notorioty (which I must say he's gotten due to recent, sad events!) He wasn't a performer himself and according to rumours barely earned his co-writing credits on songs, so that production aproach would have been his best bet at continously tooting his horn in the music business.

You should definately check out Nitzsche's early work. There are great productions to be found and he was more versatile than Spector in terms of the kind of genres he recorded. I have a blog post about all this:

https://cuecastanets.wordpress.com/2014/12/13/would-be-spectors-3-jack-nitzsche/

[Tricycle Rider]

We know The Beach boys were already fans of Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller's work with the Coasters, so I think Brian would have gone along a similar path even without Phil on the scene, because he would have been aware of what Leiber and Stoller were doing with The Drifters over at Atlantic. (castanets, strings, big reverb etc...)

 

P.S. Great idea for a blog!

[Mr. Cohen]

Personally, I think Spector's approach covered all ends of the spectrum - some of his songs I find exhilarating such as Da Doo Ron Ron or Fine Fine Boy, others heartbreakingly and gripping like 'Lovin' Feeling' or 'Wish I Never Saw the Sunshine'. But that increasingly cavernous, gargantuan sound was what ran through it all and eventually became his downfall, I guess. I think it did make him put himself in a corner - if all your releases get bigger and more monstrous, and you are known for that sound, do you dare go back and scale down your approach?

Spector certainly didn't, at least during the 60s, and that was his mistake. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that he craved the attention and notorioty (which I must say he's gotten due to recent, sad events!) He wasn't a performer himself and according to rumours barely earned his co-writing credits on songs, so that production aproach would have been his best bet at continously tooting his horn in the music business.

I'll agree, and on that subject, I find it hard to understand what people think is so great about "River Deep Mountain High" from a production standpoint. It amazes me that John Lennon and George Harrison heard that and thought "I wish The Beatles sounded like that!" Guess you had to be there.  I'm not saying it was a bad job by Spector and his production contained some great ideas, but you sense a guy that was lost and reaching very hard.

Also, re: songwriting, what's a shame is that Brian believed Spector was writing the songs himself! From the famous 1976 RS interview:

Yet [Spector is] not really a composer of songs.
BRIAN: Well, I'm a firm believer that he wrote those songs and gave the others credit. In order to produce them the way he did, he had to write them.


It's like Brian had to fabricate competition for himself. Here he is thinking he isn't quite measuring up to Spector, when an objective observer could see he's much more skilled. Spector was a talented producer that could successfully contribute to the songwriting and arranging process, but he wasn't writing and arranging at anything close to Brian's level. Plus, Brian was also a great PERFORMER. Could Spector front a group on stage and sing tons of leads? I think not.

[Mr. Cohen]

I think one of Spector's greatest talents was his ability to self-promote. You even see it in interviews with the Wrecking Crew. Hal really respects Brian, but he goes nuts over Phil. And Hal's someone who had to know Brian did way more than Spector. Spector just cast a spell over people.

[Jesse Reiswig]

A couple of additions to/mild disagreements with various previous posts.

A) In addition to "Guess I'm Dumb," "Let Him Run Wild," to my ears, also shows a big Bacharach influence, with its jazzy passing chords.

B) I think that Brian's music would have been totally different in 1963 to 1965, specifically, without the Spector influence. By Pet Sounds he was doing something much more his own. One wonders if he would've gotten to quite that place without the Spector immersion though.

C) Though Spector wasn't a "performer" or front man per se, as pointed out above, all evidence points to that being more due to his unattractive looks and lack of star quality, than to any lack of ability to perform. The Tearing Down the Wall of Sound biography is full of anecdotes of him entertaining people brilliantly at private events as a solo performer. He was also, according to many, a brilliant guitarist (he played lead, for instance on "On Broadway"), who could've easily made a good living as a session guitarist had he not become a producer, and a good piano player as well.

D) As for his status as a songwriter, that I am in total agreement about. Phil Spector was not much of a great songwriter, unless you think "To Know Him Is to Love Him" is a great song (which it might be, in its way) and his contributions to most of the Barry/Greenwich, Goffin/King and Mann/Weil songs that he tacked his name onto, from a songwriting perspective, was minimal (or nonexistent, in some cases). Even "There's No Other (Like My Baby)" he apparently doesn't deserve his cowrite on. Rearranging the tune was apparently his contribution.

E) In general I will say that once I really started getting into Spector, it was immediately apparent how much Brian owed to him. Though I am in agreement with Terry Melcher that Brian was wrong to think he never equaled Spector--that, in fact, he became by far the greater artist--it is clear that in 1963 and 1964, Brian was very much trying to emulate Spector on a number of tracks (especially in his non-BB productions). And it is also clear that, at this stage, Spector was still WAY ahead of Brian in terms of the maturity of the tracks and the rich beauty of the productions. Think about it this way: At the same time that Spector was doing the rich and multilayered, complex "Do I Love You?" and "Walking in the Rain," Brian was doing "I Get Around" and "Dance, Dance, Dance." Just as great in their own way, but certainly not works of the same level of maturation as a talent. Brian's problem might be that he judges himself by the wrong terms. He never equaled Spector at doing Spector, but he took a turn and became totally original. He became the greatest Brian Wilson in the world and did varieties of music Spector could never do.

F) As for "River Deep Mountain High," I don't think the production is the problem; the song is. If it had been a better song it would have shone through the bombastic production and merited it. I don't think the production ruined the song, the song just wasn't worthy of it.

[Mr. Cohen]

I'll agree that Phil was ahead of Brian in the beginning, but he had way more help. If Brian had Nitzsche to help arrange and songwriters like Barry/Greenwich by his side, he probably could've "progressed" a lot quicker. Phil stood on the shoulder of giants. Brian was a giant. That's the difference.

[guitarfool2002]

Great thread! I'll add more when I'm not as limited with time...but I want to mention some brief points to consider, or restate, etc.

Spector did in fact have a head start, and unlike Brian, Phil did serve an apprenticeship of sorts under the mentorship of Leiber and Stoller. If you listen to those more orchestral-leaning Leiber and Stoller tracks, like the Drifters, you'll hear a lot of what would turn up later on Spector's Wall Of Sound productions. Especially the auxiliary percussion like castanets, which really were not "rock and roll" or R&B as much as they were an orchestral/ethnic instrument sound. Spector used percussion like that extensively, and when Brian did copy Spector as in Why Do Fools Fall In Love or Then I Kissed Her, there were the same elements.

Besides the apprenticeship Spector had with those two giants of writing and production in the 50's, as mentioned he also had Jack Nitzsche to do the arrangements. Without Jack, there is no "Wall".

One parallel to consider: Both Brian and Phil had recording engineers at their side in the studio to bring their sounds to life, and more importantly capture them on tape. Phil had Larry Levine, Brian had Chuck Britz.

I'd argue if they did not have those highly skilled engineers, who were both from the "old school" yet willing to break the rules to get better sounds on tape, the productions would not have been the same.

I'd say Brian learned so much from Chuck as far as the nuts-and-bolts of capturing sounds on tape that it colored everything he was able to do which culminated with the year 1966. Chuck was like Brian's mentor for sounds, and fortunately Chuck was working at an independent studio that would allow Brian to be hands-on with the board without needing a union card to work the board. The untold stories are the hours that were spent with Chuck Britz as Brian watched and learned the technical aspects of studio recording and mixing. Chuck could be one of the most unsung heroes in the whole story, I'd guess if he and Brian didn't connect early on and were not so compatible working together, you would not have seen the level of work that Brian progressed into.

But consider the element too that George Martin pointed out: Phil had Jack and Larry plus a mentorship with Leiber and Stoller under his belt, The Beatles had George Martin, Norman Smith and Geoff Emerick to get the sounds on those recordings, and Brian was basically a one-man show for arranging, orchestrating, and writing...plus production...with Chuck Britz (mostly) to record the sounds.

For a guy in his early 20's to have learned basically on-the-job without an apprenticeship or a formally trained musician like George Martin at the helm, it's quite an amazing accomplishment to have that body of work in the 1960's competing with those peers.

[Jesse Reiswig]

kwan_dk, just read your blog post. Great job, and great blog!

Thank you for calling our attention to "Things Are Changing." This is an obscure bit of Wilson/Spector-ology that I never knew about before. I had no idea!

[kwan_dk]

A couple of additions to/mild disagreements with various previous posts.

(...)

C) Though Spector wasn't a "performer" or front man per se, as pointed out above, all evidence points to that being more due to his unattractive looks and lack of star quality, than to any lack of ability to perform. The Tearing Down the Wall of Sound biography is full of anecdotes of him entertaining people brilliantly at private events as a solo performer. He was also, according to many, a brilliant guitarist (he played lead, for instance on "On Broadway"), who could've easily made a good living as a session guitarist had he not become a producer, and a good piano player as well.

(...)

E) (...) Brian's problem might be that he judges himself by the wrong terms. He never equaled Spector at doing Spector, but he took a turn and became totally original. He became the greatest Brian Wilson in the world and did varieties of music Spector could never do.

F) As for "River Deep Mountain High," I don't think the production is the problem; the song is. If it had been a better song it would have shone through the bombastic production and merited it. I don't think the production ruined the song, the song just wasn't worthy of it.

Thank you for the kind words about my blog, Jesse. Glad you liked it. You have some good points in your post I'd like to add to.

C) Spector could definately have made a pretty decent performer had he wished to pursue that direction. Among hardcore Spector collectors there are a few unreleased cuts of his singing on half-baked productions. There's a great song called 'Pretty Girl', where he's especially good. His voice would probably have worked best on softer, less elaborate productions and that's probably why he didn't pursue that career as it would have meant he would have had to abandon his famous sound. Here are two examples of how he sounded - Spector singing, very heartfelt in my opinion, 'Spanish Harlem' alone with his guitar and then the unreleased Down at TJs which was used as a theme for a Music TV Special. Here I think his voice can't really live up to the gigantic track. But listen to that crazy production! Brilliant!

Spanish Harlem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LUdPaFRB60

Down at TJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NqW3RtVZI

E) Really well put. I agree 100% - man, you just put into two sentences what I was trying to say with my lenghthy blog post. 

F) Again, I agree. The production is great but the song just can't cut it. I've never been that keen on it. If anything, 'I'll Never Need More than This' from the same songwriting session with Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry is much better - he should have released that one instead of 'River Deep'. Great song and monster production. I love Tina's growl just before the solo section. I can only find the stereo version on YouTube, - Phil would NOT approve. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsZh_W9BV6E

[Mr. Cohen]

Sorry, but I don't buy Spector as a performer. On "Down at TJ's" he sounds like a dead ringer for Pee-wee Herman. He had a reedy voice. Not to discount Phil as a producer, but Brian has led monster tours and sang leads on iconic, hit pop songs. Phil can't even shine Brian's shoes in that category.

[kwan_dk]

Great thread! I'll add more when I'm not as limited with time...but I want to mention some brief points to consider, or restate, etc.

(...)

Besides the apprenticeship Spector had with those two giants of writing and production in the 50's, as mentioned he also had Jack Nitzsche to do the arrangements. Without Jack, there is no "Wall".

Thanks for chiming in with some good points, Guitarfool. I'm not sure I agree with this opinion, though. Care to elaborate? Phil also did some great, monstrous stuff with other arrangers, for instance 'Lovin' Feeling' with Gene Page arranging, the ear-crunching version of 'I Wonder' by the Crystals with Arnold Goland by his side and lest not forget Perry Botkin Jr coming onboard as arranger later on. In the 70s Nino Tempo often had the arranging gig as well. I don't think you really can tell the difference between the various tracks - the wall is there allright, in full effect, no matter which arranger is onboard.

For those who haven't heard the Crystals take of 'I Wonder', check this out. It was only out in England, never in the US. And it's not even included on the Back to Mono box. I still prefer the Ronettes version, but this one is also great. Although almost a little frightening with its extreme sonic assault. More like a 'sledgehammer of sound' than a wall....  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r0K9feMFQQ

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'll agree, and on that subject, I find it hard to understand what people think is so great about "River Deep Mountain High" from a production standpoint. It amazes me that John Lennon and George Harrison heard that and thought "I wish The Beatles sounded like that!"

Just for my own interests, what's the source on that? I know that Lennon extolled the version done by Nilsson, but I've never heard him or George comment on the Spector version. Of course, they were all fans of the Spector sound but I never knew they felt so strongly about that particular one.

[Empire Of Love]

Thanks for chiming in with some good points, Guitarfool. I'm not sure I agree with this opinion, though. Care to elaborate? Phil also did some great, monstrous stuff with other arrangers, for instance 'Lovin' Feeling' with Gene Page arranging, the ear-crunching version of 'I Wonder' by the Crystals with Arnold Goland by his side and lest not forget Perry Botkin Jr coming onboard as arranger later on. In the 70s Nino Tempo often had the arranging gig as well. I don't think you really can tell the difference between the various tracks - the wall is there allright, in full effect, no matter which arranger is onboard.

[/quote]

I took guitarfool to mean that Jack was essential in developing the sound, therefore without him there would be no wall.  I do not think he was saying that Phil could not work without Jack and create the same sound.

EoL

[CenturyDeprived]

A couple of additions to/mild disagreements with various previous posts.

(...)

C) Though Spector wasn't a "performer" or front man per se, as pointed out above, all evidence points to that being more due to his unattractive looks and lack of star quality, than to any lack of ability to perform. The Tearing Down the Wall of Sound biography is full of anecdotes of him entertaining people brilliantly at private events as a solo performer. He was also, according to many, a brilliant guitarist (he played lead, for instance on "On Broadway"), who could've easily made a good living as a session guitarist had he not become a producer, and a good piano player as well.

(...)

E) (...) Brian's problem might be that he judges himself by the wrong terms. He never equaled Spector at doing Spector, but he took a turn and became totally original. He became the greatest Brian Wilson in the world and did varieties of music Spector could never do.

F) As for "River Deep Mountain High," I don't think the production is the problem; the song is. If it had been a better song it would have shone through the bombastic production and merited it. I don't think the production ruined the song, the song just wasn't worthy of it.

Thank you for the kind words about my blog, Jesse. Glad you liked it. You have some good points in your post I'd like to add to.

C) Spector could definately have made a pretty decent performer had he wished to pursue that direction. Among hardcore Spector collectors there are a few unreleased cuts of his singing on half-baked productions. There's a great song called 'Pretty Girl', where he's especially good. His voice would probably have worked best on softer, less elaborate productions and that's probably why he didn't pursue that career as it would have meant he would have had to abandon his famous sound. Here are two examples of how he sounded - Spector singing, very heartfelt in my opinion, 'Spanish Harlem' alone with his guitar and then the unreleased Down at TJs which was used as a theme for a Music TV Special. Here I think his voice can't really live up to the gigantic track. But listen to that crazy production! Brilliant!

Spanish Harlem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LUdPaFRB60

Down at TJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NqW3RtVZI

E) Really well put. I agree 100% - man, you just put into two sentences what I was trying to say with my lenghthy blog post. 

F) Again, I agree. The production is great but the song just can't cut it. I've never been that keen on it. If anything, 'I'll Never Need More than This' from the same songwriting session with Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry is much better - he should have released that one instead of 'River Deep'. Great song and monster production. I love Tina's growl just before the solo section. I can only find the stereo version on YouTube, - Phil would NOT approve. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsZh_W9BV6E

Totally agree about "I'll Never Need More Than This".

[Mr. Cohen]

Just for my own interests, what's the source on that? I know that Lennon extolled the version done by Nilsson, but I've never heard him or George comment on the Spector version. Of course, they were all fans of the Spector sound but I never knew they felt so strongly about that particular one.

On the American release of the album River Deep - Mountain High, Harrison is quoted on a sticker on the cover as saying "'River Deep - Mountain High' is a perfect record from start to finish. You couldn't improve on it." I don't know if Lennon ever said anything about that particular song, but it's obviously known Harrison and Lennon were huge Spector fans.

[kwan_dk]

I took guitarfool to mean that Jack was essential in developing the sound, therefore without him there would be no wall.  I do not think he was saying that Phil could not work without Jack and create the same sound.

EoL

Yeah, that occured to me as well but even if that's what he meant, I am of the opnion that Phil could probably have achieved that same Wall of sound, or somthing very, very close to it, with some other arranger.

Not to take anything away from Jack Nitzsche; he was brilliant and the one who introduced Phil to the Wrecking Crew but I tend to think Phil would have found them or someone equally talented anyway, probably aided by another arranger who knew these guys just as well as Jack. Remember; Phil already knew Gold Star inside-out from his days recording there as a Teddy Bear - and on his early productions on the East Coast such as Gene Pitney's 'Every Breath I Take' or the early Crystals cuts, he was already starting to develop a production philosophy that was dependent of a large group of musicians.

I think it would have happened even without Jack onboard...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Just for my own interests, what's the source on that? I know that Lennon extolled the version done by Nilsson, but I've never heard him or George comment on the Spector version. Of course, they were all fans of the Spector sound but I never knew they felt so strongly about that particular one.

On the American release of the album River Deep - Mountain High, Harrison is quoted on a sticker on the cover as saying "'River Deep - Mountain High' is a perfect record from start to finish. You couldn't improve on it." I don't know if Lennon ever said anything about that particular song, but it's obviously known Harrison and Lennon were huge Spector fans.

As was McCartney...at one time. But, yeah, I'm sure they liked the song. Harrison quote is not about the song but about the album and it happened to come about not at the time the single was released but three years later at beginning of the Klein instigated relationship between Spector and The Beatles. I wouldn't be surprised if the quote wasn't, in some way, motivated by Klein. At any rate, in 1968, when a radio host asked Lennon what song he wanted to play, Lennon said Nilsson's River Deep.

[D Cunningham]

Kwan...yes, the Crystals I Wonder is magnificent.  For those who don't have it...it was on the CD
"The Best of the Crystals" ca early 90s.  With the pink cover. That collection (19 songs) also has
"I Love You Eddie", which I dig because, when first getting into Spector, I purchased some old
singles. Something about the "I Love You Eddie" track--simple as it is-- made me sit up and realize
the depth  and breadth of Spector's gestalt.  Magical stuff.

[Jesse Reiswig]

Man, that "Spanish Harlem" demo is killer. Beautiful.

When I was talking about Spector's songwriting (or lack thereof), I clumsily forgot about "Spanish Harlem." By all accounts Leiber and Spector truly cowrote that, with Spector taking the lead on many of the musical elements. True that Spector wasn't usually a natural songwriter and it's questionable how much he contributed as a songwriter to most of his hits, but to write "Spanish Harlem" alone is an extraordinary accomplishment.

Edit:

Here, on the other hand, is another demo where Phil sings quite poorly indeed! This one for "I Can Hear Music," another song he probably really did contribute to significantly in terms of songwriting, though he did not produce the Ronettes' record. Quite a brilliant demo structurally, despite Phil's often off-key singing. Strange. Notably, he sings "I hear music, hold me tight" on the bridge. Never realized that was the lyric before. Don't the BBs sing "I hear music all the time" on their version? If so, looks like they goofed, 'cause the Ronettes sing "hold me tight" on their version as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaXAPj1CDh8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDnlWG40gmw

2nd edit: Having listened closely again to the BB's bridge, it sounds to me like they sing, "I hear the music all the time, yeah, I hear the music hold me tight now baby, I hear the music all the time, I hear the music, I hear the music." Interesting.

[guitarfool2002]

Great thread! I'll add more when I'm not as limited with time...but I want to mention some brief points to consider, or restate, etc.

(...)

Besides the apprenticeship Spector had with those two giants of writing and production in the 50's, as mentioned he also had Jack Nitzsche to do the arrangements. Without Jack, there is no "Wall".

Thanks for chiming in with some good points, Guitarfool. I'm not sure I agree with this opinion, though. Care to elaborate? Phil also did some great, monstrous stuff with other arrangers, for instance 'Lovin' Feeling' with Gene Page arranging, the ear-crunching version of 'I Wonder' by the Crystals with Arnold Goland by his side and lest not forget Perry Botkin Jr coming onboard as arranger later on. In the 70s Nino Tempo often had the arranging gig as well. I don't think you really can tell the difference between the various tracks - the wall is there allright, in full effect, no matter which arranger is onboard.

Sure! The best arrangers are like the best individual musicians, when you hear a few bars of their stuff you know who it is. It gets deeper than a lot of listeners notice, but take for a parallel example the differences on Sinatra's 1950's Capitol releases (one of the finest bodies of work in all of popular music). It is possible to hear the differences between a Nelson Riddle arrangement and a Billy May arrangement, but for a lot of listeners who don't key into some specific details they can basically respond by saying "it sounds like Sinatra". Yet Riddle had a very unique and identifiable style...and overall mood/tone, which is more important to where I'm going with this regarding Jack Nitschke...that you can pick out if you listen for it. Nelson was very unique, Billy May was an excellent arranger but when you got Sinatra singing a Riddle chart, there was a sympatico magic that happened in the performance captured on tape.

Jack Nitschke was a character, a really unique and quirky character who happened to be a terrific arranger, but to be honest having read about him beyond Spector, he had a different personality than some of his music suggests. The guy who did Christmas Gift For You...Jack in person...not what you'd think.

Yet, I think it was Jack who crystallized the actual sound of Spector's Wall. Others could write charts to exploit it, or even to copy it, but it was Jack's arrangements along with the other pieces of the puzzle that just *nailed* it. I don't base this on anything but opinion, but I think the fact that Jack and Phil were both characters who marched to their own drummer made the "Wall" as edgy as it was. It's not a sensitive Wall, like Pet Sounds, it's not an introspective Wall, like others, rather these teenage pop recordings are like a tidal wave and an earthquake which the lead singer has to either ride out or rise above, or risk getting swept up.

Jack's charts demanded something unique from whoever was singing lead. That's just what Spector needed, that's just what a true belter like Darlene Love brought in and what a really unique and different voice like Ronnie brought in. Not every Spector production worked, naturally, but the ones that put the template into place and set the standard beyond even the music seemed to be Jack's charts powering the engine.

River Deep...I agree on all points, it never, ever hit me as something I want to listen to over and over. It's the song itself...not much of a hook, to my ears. Purely my opinion.

Back to Jack, seriously try this time permitting as an experiment. Next time you can round up some volunteer listeners, grab some of Jack's better known Spector arrangements and play them alongside the other arrangers Phil worked with on the Wall. At the same time, get a handful of Nelson Riddle's charts for Sinatra in the 50's, and play them alongside Billy May's charts, and even add a few Quincy Jones charts as well, or Gordon Jenkins. See which ones if any stand out above the rest, quality wise or just plain interest wise.

I think Jack's charts are the cream of the crop, the others solid and good but lacking that extra "something" that Jack brought to the process.

[Jesse Reiswig]

Fascinating. Thanks for this, guitarfool.

[Please delete my account]

"I'll Never Need More Than This", though good, is IMO not one twentieth of the song "River Deep Mountain High" is. I can't believe how many people in this thread are impervious to its genius.