The John Lennon Peace, Love, and Appreciation Thread

[Buckethead]

I am in full agreement, KDS. My annoyance is with people who confuse the music with the person. For example, I'm sure that Dennis Wilson had wonderful  aspects to his  personality, but his well-documented  history with women in no way supports the persona indicated in much of his music. 

[KDS]

I am in full agreement, KDS. My annoyance is with people who confuse the music with the person. For example, I'm sure that Dennis Wilson had wonderful  aspects to his  personality, but his well-documented  history with women in no way supports the persona indicated in much of his music. 

Even Brian Wilson wasn't Father of the Year material, yet he's thought of as a saint. 

[Buckethead]

True, KDS, by many people.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

John Lennon's music I think reflected all aspects of his personality. His music wasn't all love and peace, some of it displayed a great deal of anger, laziness, and jealousy. It also articulated his humour. I really don't buy into the argument that his music was hypocritical. I think all of that was part of his personality and I think most of the people who actually knew him recognized that.

[Buckethead]

Oh, I am not saying that John Lennon himself was hypocritical. My real issue, I think, is people in general deifying artists, putting them on a pedestal based on impressions gleaned (sometimes unevenly) from their work or public presentation of themselves. It's a tendency that human beings have, I suppose.

[RangeRoverA1]

John's solo material is definitely not to my taste. But it's got cool songs here & there, sure. I usually like cool songs, which got some coolness in arrangement, cool vocal tricks, bits, hooks et al.

I've got theory about such comments as "he sings it with much more soul", "I prefer his voice because it's soulful" etc. I gather that when people say it, they mean the other singers vocally fail due to lack of soul in their voices. Or, that they didn't try to bring soul to the table when they sang. But, & I didn't think about it before, isn't it just the fact everybody's blessed with this voice & that voice? I.e. there's singers who *do* bare their souls but it's just not in-your-face due to the timbre, the type of voice & factors alike? It sounds subdued but it could be they express it differently than, say, Dennis or John who people usually describe as "emotive" & "soulful". There's many colors & shapes of voices, so the bottom line would be it isn't that some singers lack soul, just the way they sing, they sing like that & to them, they may sing with soul, expressiveness but to us, it sounds like they don't convey what they sing "convincingly" (it's not the right word but the right word escapes me, excuse it).

2 cents.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Oh, I am not saying that John Lennon himself was hypocritical. My real issue, I think, is people in general deifying artists, putting them on a pedestal based on impressions gleaned (sometimes unevenly) from their work or public presentation of themselves. It's a tendency that human beings have, I suppose.

Yes, I always find it a bit odd that the Lennon that a lot people seem to remember is the one from a very brief period in his life: 1967-1971. Granted those 5 years were a significant part of his brief 40, but there were still so many facets of his ever-changing personality.

[KDS]

John's solo material is definitely not to my taste. But it's got cool songs here & there, sure. I usually like cool songs, which got some coolness in arrangement, cool vocal tricks, bits, hooks et al.

I've got theory about such comments as "he sings it with much more soul", "I prefer his voice because it's soulful" etc. I gather that when people say it, they mean the other singers vocally fail due to lack of soul in their voices. Or, that they didn't try to bring soul to the table when they sang. But, & I didn't think about it before, isn't it just the fact everybody's blessed with this voice & that voice? I.e. there's singers who *do* bare their souls but it's just not in-your-face due to the timbre, the type of voice & factors alike? It sounds subdued but it could be they express it differently than, say, Dennis or John who people usually describe as "emotive" & "soulful". There's many colors & shapes of voices, so the bottom line would be it isn't that some singers lack soul, just the way they sing, they sing like that & to them, they may sing with soul, expressiveness but to us, it sounds like they don't convey what they sing "convincingly" (it's not the right word but the right word escapes me, excuse it).

2 cents.

I can't really speak for who I think is / isn't soulful.   I think that "soulful" is often used by fans to describe singers who inflect / emote with their voices who might not necessarily be gifted singers like a Carl Wilson, Freddie Mercury, etc. 

Of course, that's not always the case. 

George Harrison had a more laid back vocal style than John or even Paul, but I don't think that means that he didn't believe what he was singing.   It's just less of a raw style than John or Dennis Wilson. 

[Buckethead]

Freddy Mercury was not a "gifted" singer?  While I'd never considered Queen my cup of tea, it never occurred to me that this man
lacked anything in the vocal department. As far as Carl is concerned, he is my favorite Beach Boy in terms of vocals - love his voice and find his work "soulful," although in terms of whether he is gifted, I'm on the fence...

[KDS]

Freddy Mercury was not a "gifted" singer?  While I'd never considered Queen my cup of tea, it never occurred to me that this man
lacked anything in the vocal department. As far as Carl is concerned, he is my favorite Beach Boy in terms of vocals - love his voice and find his work "soulful," although in terms of whether he is gifted, I'm on the fence...

Re-read my post.   I said that Carl Wilson and Freddie Mercury were gifted.  For my money, Freddie was the most talented singer in rock history. 

[Buckethead]

" I think that "soulful" is often used by fans to describe singers who inflect / emote with their voices who might not necessarily be gifted singers like a Carl Wilson, Freddie Mercury, etc. "

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post - I took it to mean that Mercury and Wilson given as examples of not gifted singers who inflect/emote well.  We are of one mind, it appears!

[KDS]

" I think that "soulful" is often used by fans to describe singers who inflect / emote with their voices who might not necessarily be gifted singers like a Carl Wilson, Freddie Mercury, etc. "

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post - I took it to mean that Mercury and Wilson given as examples of not gifted singers who inflect/emote well.  We are of one mind, it appears!

Yes, and I'm not saying Lennon wasn't a really good singer. 

But, I often see the word "soulful" used to describe singers like Dylan, Dennis Wilson, Layne Staley, Lou Reed, or Tom Waits, singers not nearly as good as Carl, Freddie, Paul Rodgers, Ronnie James Dio, or Glenn Hughes. 

[RangeRoverA1]

Buckethead, can you address things I'd written in Reply #155? 2nd paragraph about voices & soulfulness differing wherein every singer. Read it & say if you agree/  disagree, can add few cents to discussion. I'd written them for everybody chiming in to discuss, not just KDS. Surprised you didn't say anything about it as you seem very interested in discussing various topics. I brought some subject to discuss for you as well. I'm curious about fresh new people to the board's perspective.

[Buckethead]

Hello, RangeRover I!

     I wasn't purposefully giving your comment short shrift so much as you brought up a topic on which I needed time to consider.  What is "soulful" to me might not be to another - a very subjective thing. All I might offer to this discussion are a few thoughts:
I sense it in singing when the vocal nails the emotion a song is trying to project because the singer at least seems to be feeling it.  I never really thought of it as a label reserved for less-than-excellent singers. I've heard people say that Barbra Streisand, for example, sings with soulfulness, and she is considered the cream of the crop in terms of female singers. Yet I somehow can't buy into it because she seems to be putting her emotional energy into technical perfection and vocal gymnastics.  The Band's Richard Manuel, on the other hand, while not what one would call a singer's singer, nails it for me every time: "I shall Be Released." And
Rick Danko, on "It Makes No Difference" makes me buy what he's selling every time.

[Buckethead]

Since we're on a John Lennon Thread, I'll add that it was George, not John et.al., whom I would consider the soulful singer of the Beatles. IMO, none of them were really great singers, but it was George's singing that reached down, yes, into my soul. 

[Ian]

John hands down for me.  George wrote some nice tunes but I never thought much of him as a singer

[pixletwin]

Anyone here ever listened to the single which John father, Alfred, released in the mid 60’s? It’s interesting, to say the least.

[Buckethead]

Gosh, I have now! Here it is. What do we think? Competition for Murry?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgbVRQOnQk8

And her's the B side...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRlDUeVcTYs

[pixletwin]

Gosh, I have now! Here it is. What do we think? Competition for Murry?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgbVRQOnQk8

And her's the B side...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRlDUeVcTYs

I had never heard the second link. Thanks for digging that up. Nicely done.

[JK]

Not many songs make me cry. Three of them are by Mr Lennon.

I first heard "Beautiful Boy" the day after John was murdered and my son was Sean's age. I can't listen to that song anymore.

"#9 Dream" is one of those strange songs which mess with your head (and eyes) without one really knowing why. Perhaps in this case it's because it feels like a glimpse into another world (or heaven).

"Woman" is one of the greatest and most moving love songs ever recorded. But not a song for every occasion.

[Summer_Days]

Of all popular music, my two favorite visionaries are Brian Wilson and John Lennon. Plus The Beach Boys and The Beatles are (in that order) my two very favorite bands.

While there are those who abstain and love each member equally, most of us have a favorite member of The Beatles. John is mine. He is one of the artists that is on my personal Mount Olympus of songwriters. Most of my top 10 favorite Beatles songs were his.

It's popular today to either place John high on a pedestal or say that he was a complete asshole. Though I understand the reasoning for both views, the reality is somewhere in the middle, which is where I'd like to be. Does he deserve all his massive praise? I don't know about all of it, it is seriously massive, but he deserves heaps of it. Does he deserve tons of criticism for the way he went through life? Some criticism, sure. He did do some pretty bad things, though later in life he spoke about how he greatly regretted his actions and tried to be better. His life was a journey of constant pain and triumph and everything in between. I judge much of John, not all of him, by his music and I think there we can largely agree that he wrote some astonishing, timeless, unforgettably beautiful songs.

My three favorite Beatles songs are his: 'Strawberry Fields Forever', 'If I Fell' and 'In My Life'. My three favorite solo John songs are: 'Jealous Guy', 'Real Love' and 'Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)', all of these songs so beautiful, only Brian's best, most emotional music like Pet Sounds can surpass it in my heart.

John is always with me. When my mother died almost 7 years ago, I listened to 'Julia' and 'My Mummy's Dead' expecting to cry but instead my heart was lifted (I think if I listened to the heart wrenching 'Mother' I would've drowned in my tears). He influences what I write (poetry and songs without music since I don't play an instrument yet.....lyrics really). I was listening to a lot of John's more searching songs like 'Imagine' when I, about 18 years ago, proclaimed myself an atheist after a long time of just being an apathetic agnostic. While I couldn't say whether he was an atheist or what, he was definitely leery of religion (which you could just chock up to his dislike of authority) and it was good to hear somebody whose music I respected seemed to feel the same as me. I was pretty alone with my atheism.

John Lennon is a complex figure and that seeped into his songwriting. Aside from Brian, there's nobody out there like him when it comes to truly great music.

Sorry for rattling on so long.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well said.

The older I get, the more I realize that the mark of a good person is someone who acknowledges their mistakes and tries their hardest to be better. I think John was a great example of someone like that.

[pixletwin]

Yep. Well said.

John was a complex human being. His life wasn't a movie script. He was at times and angel and at time the devil incarnate. I could say the same about myself, if I am honest. Many of you could as well, I suspect.

"You wanna save humanity, but it's people that you just can't stand."

That is John in a nutshell.

[B.E.]

"You wanna save humanity, but it's people that you just can't stand."

That is John in a nutshell.

Yeah, agreed. I've always loved the introspective lyrics of "I Don't Wanna Face It". That line being my favorite. As an aside, I think it's cool that as the M&H version fades, John ad-libs the lyrics from his "Mirror Mirror" demo.

[RangeRoverA1]

John hands down for me.

Disagree.