O.k. 'splain this to me: What keeps Al from playing with Mike whenever he wants?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Do we really know Brian is "fine" with the status quo? That it doesn't still bug him somewhat? Just because somebody goes along with something, and even gets some financial benefits on the side, doesn't mean they're actually happy with it or think that it is "right".

Because Mike has made it abundantly obvious that he will sue and be relentless to get his way… Maybe Brian/Melinda simply don't want to be put through gut-wrenching legal battles that would undoubtedly ensue. I think Mike has created a "don't f*ck with me" vibe with his legal actions (especially the lawsuit during the BWPS era)... And it is crystal clear that Mike will never, ever give up his ability to tour as the band name without a huge fight. It's everything to him. I think that even if Brian and Carl's estate tried to do so (with Al in tow), Mike would be scrambling his lawyers to find out how he could stop that from happening, and he would drag it out legally for as long as he could. Does anyone really doubt that would be the case?

Not to mention, if Brian really wanted to try to start a process to attempt to take the license away from Mike (not that he could do it on his own anyway), Brian would also inadvertently be screwing over his late brother's family from getting a regular paycheck. That would be collateral damage.

Bottom line – I would really doubt that Brian is happy about the current situation, especially after how the reunion ended so bitterly. I just think that it's not worth it to him to go about trying to change it. Why does a 72-year-old man who's gone through emotional hardships in his life need to put himself through any more emotionally tough stuff? Better to just not rock the boat.

Of course, I'm sure Brian and Melinda are fine with cashing the checks too. But lets not fool ourselves into just 100% assuming that Brian is actually actively "happy" about the situation as a whole. He simply let the baby have his bottle. The simple fact is that the alternative is way too emotionally and financially costly. I'll bet that the thought has crossed his mind, and I'd be shocked if he's never had even a brief conversation about it, just discussing hypotheticals at some point post 1998.

Know what I think about Brian's concern for the status quo, based on past events, observation and what I may, or may not, have been told ?  Unless someone brings it up again, it doesn't cross his mind. Brian isn't interested in the past. Partly because some of it has been very painful for him but mostly because it's another country. He's been there, done that, next please.

[KittyKat]

Brian is the one who gave up on touring with the Beach Boys over 50 years ago, along with doing TV appearances with them, except for here and there. He even had to have his photo pasted onto at least one record cover, if not more. He set the whole idea of a not-true-Beach-Boys line-up in motion a loooong time ago.

I don't get the argument that the Beach Boys in whatever form should stop touring because they're all supposedly so wealthy, because they're not. And they all have lots of kids. Brian alone has seven children. Kids never stop needing things, no matter how old they get. All of them, not just Mike, also lost parts of their money in divorce settlements. There can never be enough financial security.

I'm not sure how Al Jardine's band had more "real Beach Boys" than Mike's. Mike's current band is the also-ran Beach Boys of the future. You don't think John Cowsill is a good Beach Boy, or Scott Totten? Those guys are good musicians. At least as good as the people who were playing with Al.

[CenturyDeprived]

No, I really meant it, and not just with Brian and Melinda, but also Carl's Estate. Who would NOT be ecstatic to receive a direct deposit of thousands and thousands of dollars into their checking account - FOR DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - regardless of your financial status or tax bracket.

This topic (the license) comes up frequently, and that's fine. In some ways it's interesting. It would be a lot more interesting if we knew more about the terms of the license. But, in my opinion, we can go around and around, and blame this guy and that guy, but it all comes back to the same conclusion. This license was negotiated, continues to stay in effect, and will continue to stay in effect for one basic reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I ask a question. If Brian Wilson and Al Jardine and Carl Wilson's Estate did NOT get a check for every M & B show performed, do you think this license would still be effect? Doesn't that answer all questions? And, I might as well get myself in trouble again. Who is Carl Wilson's estate? Gina (Dean Martin's daughter) Wilson and Carl's two sons? I wonder how strong they feel about the issue? I wonder if they think about how their father would feel about the situation? Are they hurting for money? Just asking...

I randomly saw Jonah Wilson at a restaurant a few months ago, I should have asked him right in the middle of his meal

But seriously, it's about 3 things: money (for all parties involved), nobody wanting to rock the boat with inevitable lawsuits (and further fracturing the family), and possibly some sentiment from Brian that Mike simply has earned the right to use the name at this point. The amount of pain/headache/family fractures/money drain from legal fees (aside from the M&B revenue stream drying up) would make it not worth it to most people, especially on the Brian/Carl's estate side, no?

[Sheriff John Stone]

No, I really meant it, and not just with Brian and Melinda, but also Carl's Estate. Who would NOT be ecstatic to receive a direct deposit of thousands and thousands of dollars into their checking account - FOR DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - regardless of your financial status or tax bracket.

This topic (the license) comes up frequently, and that's fine. In some ways it's interesting. It would be a lot more interesting if we knew more about the terms of the license. But, in my opinion, we can go around and around, and blame this guy and that guy, but it all comes back to the same conclusion. This license was negotiated, continues to stay in effect, and will continue to stay in effect for one basic reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I ask a question. If Brian Wilson and Al Jardine and Carl Wilson's Estate did NOT get a check for every M & B show performed, do you think this license would still be effect? Doesn't that answer all questions? And, I might as well get myself in trouble again. Who is Carl Wilson's estate? Gina (Dean Martin's daughter) Wilson and Carl's two sons? I wonder how strong they feel about the issue? I wonder if they think about how their father would feel about the situation? Are they hurting for money? Just asking...

I randomly saw Jonah Wilson at a restaurant a few months ago, I should have asked him right in the middle of his meal

But seriously, it's about 3 things: money (for all parties involved), nobody wanting to rock the boat with inevitable lawsuits (and further fracturing the family), and possibly some sentiment from Brian that Mike simply has earned the right to use the name at this point. The amount of pain/headache/family fractures/money drain from legal fees (aside from the M&B revenue stream drying up) would make it not worth it to most people, especially on the Brian/Carl's estate side, no?

I'm going to respond with the most naive answer you've ever read, and then I'm going back to work...

I guess it depends on how long and nasty and contentious and expensive (there's that money word again) the "proceedings" and negotiations would be.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The current "50th Anniversary of..." marketing is actually pretty smart, in that it trades on not only the C50 tour but also song titles that literally everyone knows. However, it does have an inbuilt roadblock, thus:

2013 - 50 Years of Surfin' USA
2014 - ... of Fun Fun Fun
2015 - ... of California Girls
2016 - ... of Good Vibrations
2017 - ... of... errr... errrrrrrrrrrrr... (Darlin' ?)
2018 - ... of Do It Again

And that's it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian alone has seven children.

Two of whom are in their mid-40s, have families of their own and by their own recent admission rarely see him.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

50 years of Endless Harmony

[CenturyDeprived]

No, I really meant it, and not just with Brian and Melinda, but also Carl's Estate. Who would NOT be ecstatic to receive a direct deposit of thousands and thousands of dollars into their checking account - FOR DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - regardless of your financial status or tax bracket.

This topic (the license) comes up frequently, and that's fine. In some ways it's interesting. It would be a lot more interesting if we knew more about the terms of the license. But, in my opinion, we can go around and around, and blame this guy and that guy, but it all comes back to the same conclusion. This license was negotiated, continues to stay in effect, and will continue to stay in effect for one basic reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I ask a question. If Brian Wilson and Al Jardine and Carl Wilson's Estate did NOT get a check for every M & B show performed, do you think this license would still be effect? Doesn't that answer all questions? And, I might as well get myself in trouble again. Who is Carl Wilson's estate? Gina (Dean Martin's daughter) Wilson and Carl's two sons? I wonder how strong they feel about the issue? I wonder if they think about how their father would feel about the situation? Are they hurting for money? Just asking...

I randomly saw Jonah Wilson at a restaurant a few months ago, I should have asked him right in the middle of his meal

But seriously, it's about 3 things: money (for all parties involved), nobody wanting to rock the boat with inevitable lawsuits (and further fracturing the family), and possibly some sentiment from Brian that Mike simply has earned the right to use the name at this point. The amount of pain/headache/family fractures/money drain from legal fees (aside from the M&B revenue stream drying up) would make it not worth it to most people, especially on the Brian/Carl's estate side, no?

I'm going to respond with the most naive answer you've ever read, and then I'm going back to work...

I guess it depends on how long and nasty and contentious and expensive (there's that money word again) the "proceedings" and negotiations would be.

True dat. And my point is that Mike's history of lawyering up over the last couple of decades in order to protect his interests (however appropriate or very misguided some of those decisions were) have had the CLEAR effect of implying that any attempt to take away Mike's most-favoritest-thing-in-the-whole-wide-world would be very long and nasty and contentious and expensive.

And even if the level of length, nastiness  and expense can't be fully quantified in advance, the threat is there in the air based on Mike's prior actions, which is probably just the way he likes it.

[RioGrande]

Of course, I'm sure Brian and Melinda are fine with cashing the checks too.

Ecstatic maybe?

 

Sheriff, you remind me of an old saying, "With friends like you, one does not need enemies."
Make it "fans" instead of "friends".

[KittyKat]

Brian alone has seven children.

Two of whom are in their mid-40s, have families of their own and by their own recent admission rarely see him.
[/quote

Those women's weddings may have taken a chunk out of Brian's bank account. I don't know where Wendy was married, but Carnie was married at one of the hotels in Beverly Hills. Since it's still traditional for parents of the bride to pay for the wedding (even for older brides, if the family has the resources), I'm sure Brian fronted quite a bit for it, along with perhaps Marilyn. Plus they have kids. Maybe Brian doesn't give them a dime, but they may have a trust where he has set something aside for their future. I'm sure he's doing the same for his current children, of which there are five. Five potential college educations and three potential weddings to pay for, plus potential future grand children whose education he may wish to ensure is provided for.

[Smile4ever]

Regardless of what happened in the past, the Mike Love Beach Boys group should no longer exist; at least not with the name "The Beach Boys." After the positive wave of critical success regarding C50, that license should have been revoked. The band--as usual--is too stupid to realize that the short-term monetary gain from this is not worth the hit to the band's legacy. As someone else said, imagine if the full reunion tour band was touring with a full rendition of Pet Sounds plus Greatest Hits. Or Smile plus Greatest Hits. It would do a lot to to help the band's reputation and put them back to their rightful place in history. Instead, they continue to consumed by folly. It's too bad.

[Smile4ever]

I don't know, Brian and Melinda seem to be pretty content with using the Brian Wilson brand over The Beach Boys brand. There's a reason Brian keeps releasing solo albums over Beach Boys albums, and I don't think it's entirely because of Mike's relentlessness to get his way.

That's because the Brian Wilson brand makes you think "incredible composer, artistic integrity." And The Beach Boy brand--much to my chagrin--exudes "kitschy nostalgia act." 

[KittyKat]

And that is partly Brian's fault. I don't see Brian himself doing these incredible tours of deep cuts and whole albums. He did it in the past, and trotted out Pet Sounds at least once during the Jeff Beck tour, but he's done his fair share of all-oldies tours. Could it be there's a demand for it?

[urbanite]

They are a nostalgia act that is in demand.  In some ways, the Beach Boys road show has gotten better over the years, there are many concerts in the past where they were downright sloppy.

[Shady]

Yeah, I meant that the best course of action would be doing 30 dates a year with Brian rather than 100 without him. But allowing Brian to play with The Beach Boys whenever he pleases wouldn't work at all.

Bad business practice, cutting your potential income by 70%: everyone loses.

Brian allows him to do this by letting him keep The Beach Boys name.

Like Brian has the final say ? Nope, he has a 25% say. Just so happened Mike & Carl's estate sided with him.

First of all, 30 shows of The Beach Boys has much higher earning potential than 30 shows of Mike Love's Beach Boys. I'd go so far as to say that it probably has the ability to earn for BRI close to the earning power of Mike's configuration over 50 or 70 shows, at least. Why? VIP bundles, merchandise, larger venues with bigger promoter buy-ins, significantly more media coverage and a bigger uptick in related album/video sales. Plus, it's going back to BRI at a 100% rate, not 20%.

Imagine if they (meaning the BB as a group) did a run of 5 shows performing Pet Sounds + GH and another run of 5 shows of SMiLE + GH. You think they might get releasable material out of each of those runs that could make them a bit of money? You think it might get some press coverage? You think that might be how you cement a legacy? Anyone remember the last time the Beatles toured Sgt. Pepper or Revolver? The last time all of the members of Pink Floyd got together to perform Dark Side Of The Moon? Or the last time Led Zeppelin got together to perform IV?

Other benefits? Less time on the road for a bunch of septuagenarians. Less strain on their voices. "Artistic credibility". Riding gracefully into the sunset...You know, gracefully aging.

As far as the voting power, Brian currently has 1/3rd of a say if he sides with the status quo. That influence changes dramatically if he and Al can (depending on BRI bylaws) force a vote. He then has a much bigger say in setting the agenda to determine how they can move forward out of their deadlock.

The license decision was made a number of years ago in a vastly different landscape. Everyone assumes a vote to change the status quo would result in "Brian and Al want the license." I think a more likely change would be "At least 4 BB's on-stage for anyone to use the name 'The Beach Boys'." A subsequent license might lower the licensing rate to 10% if they agreed to tour as "Mike Love's Beach Boys", with BAD being able to tour as "Beach Boys' Family and Friends feat. Brian Wilson, Al Jardine and David Marks." If those changes were made then yes, you could easily get away with 30-40 shows of the Beach Boys touring for the summer and the other bands handling the smaller markets during the "off-season" with no one being "The Beach Boys" and with far less subsequent confusion.

They can change the status quo significantly with a decision that makes business and artistic sense.

1 - the C50 shows were as profitable as they were because it was a special, one-off occasion. The value would be diluted by regular touring.

2 - the voting in BRI remains the same: four votes, and given that Carl's estate will vote for what brings in an income, the best Brian & Alan can dout is tie 2-2, which isn't enough to change anything. However, as in the past 15 years Brian/his representatives have evinced no desire whatsoever to change the status quo, this point is moot.

3 - by and large, only the likes of us - what, 150, 200 hard-core fans ? - actually give a flying one as to who is on stage and who should be. Everyone else goes for the music and to judge from the 3000 at HCP last week, M&B are doing just fine in that department.

I think you're really underestimating how many people care that it's not brian wilson with the beach boys.

When you add brian and al to the line up they sell out wembley area and the royal Albert hall in minutes, for a reason

[Sam_BFC]

The current "50th Anniversary of..." marketing is actually pretty smart, in that it trades on not only the C50 tour but also song titles that literally everyone knows. However, it does have an inbuilt roadblock, thus:

2013 - 50 Years of Surfin' USA
2014 - ... of Fun Fun Fun
2015 - ... of California Girls
2016 - ... of Good Vibrations
2017 - ... of... errr... errrrrrrrrrrrr... (Darlin' ?)
2018 - ... of Do It Again

And that's it.

Heroes and Villains surely.

Chick-a-boom 

[CenturyDeprived]

The current "50th Anniversary of..." marketing is actually pretty smart, in that it trades on not only the C50 tour but also song titles that literally everyone knows. However, it does have an inbuilt roadblock, thus:

2013 - 50 Years of Surfin' USA
2014 - ... of Fun Fun Fun
2015 - ... of California Girls
2016 - ... of Good Vibrations
2017 - ... of... errr... errrrrrrrrrrrr... (Darlin' ?)
2018 - ... of Do It Again

And that's it.

Heroes and Villains surely.

Chick-a-boom 

Could M&B squeeze in a late 2016 50th Anniversary of Cabin-Essence tour (w/special guest VDP?) 

[Cyncie]

Brian alone has seven children.

Two of whom are in their mid-40s, have families of their own and by their own recent admission rarely see him.

And lots of people raise kids with a bit less than 40 million dollars. I'm not buying the money excuse. These guys are all wealthy.

In my opinion, Mike tours because it's what he does and he loves it. Brian doesn't tour because he doesn't love it. The fact that Brian, Al, and Carl's estate collect from Mike's touring doesn't make me cry for Mike. He's making his cash doing what he loves, and the others are getting paid for the hard work they already put into building a brand that Mike can collect box office on. No one is paying to see the "Mike Love Traveling Roadshow." They're paying to see The Beach Boys, a brand that Mike, Dennis, Carl, Al, and especially Brian, had a hand in building. Mike may be touring the name on his own, but he didn't build it on his own, and if the others get some recompense for that, then so be it.

The sad part is that they can't come together and find a solution that works for everyone. I'd personally love to see the name "The Beach Boys" only used when all surviving members play or record together. But, given that Mike needs to be on the road and needs to hit those county fairs, there should also be an officially sanctioned touring group that he can head up with his band and John Stamos. Maybe Al would at least get to play a few gigs when the full group performs.

[Foster's Freeze]

I'm not sure how Al Jardine's band had more "real Beach Boys" than Mike's. Mike's current band is the also-ran Beach Boys of the future. You don't think John Cowsill is a good Beach Boy, or Scott Totten? Those guys are good musicians. At least as good as the people who were playing with Al.

I don't think Cowsill or Totten are better than Bobby or Ed Carter.  Are they good musicians?  I suppose but I don't think they are better.  They are hired hands who spent ZERO or very little time playing or interacting with Brian, Carl and certainly none with Dennis.  I don't think of them as associated with the Beach Boys at all.  They are guys who crossed over during the shaky aftermath of the  end of Carl and then into Mike and Bruce's solo gigs.

[Wirestone]

I think you're really underestimating how many people care that it's not brian wilson with the beach boys.

When you add brian and al to the line up they sell out wembley area and the royal Albert hall in minutes, for a reason

In the United States, with people under 35, Brian Wilson is arguably a more meaningful name than the Beach Boys. I work with a bunch of people in their 20s, and nearly everyone knows who BW is -- several have been to see his solo shows. Mention the Beach Boys, and they mention Stamos and laugh.

I think this is an example where AGD's geographical location -- Britain -- affects his understanding of how the band is seen in its biggest market. The BBs without Brian had hits in Britain. That happened precisely once in the U.S. It really does matter to U.S. audiences who is in the band.

[Wirestone]

And that is partly Brian's fault. I don't see Brian himself doing these incredible tours of deep cuts and whole albums. He did it in the past, and trotted out Pet Sounds at least once during the Jeff Beck tour, but he's done his fair share of all-oldies tours. Could it be there's a demand for it?

If by fair share, you mean a couple of dozen dates over a couple of summers. They didn't go well, and members of his band (Darian) refused to play them, so he stopped doing them.

[Nicko1234]

I would think globally there are a lot more people who care about who's on stage - if this is our argument, I could go see a Surf City All-Stars show or even Papa Do Run Run since at any given time SOMEONE in those bands has been onstage or associated with the original Beach Boys.  If they sound as good as the original recordings then what's the difference?  Personally I don't think the Mike Love band sounds like the Beach Boys.  It's Mike with nameless people singing backup but that's just me and I respect what others may think.

The last time I saw Al and his band play there was a LOT of Beach Boys pedigree:

Al Jardine
Billy Hinsche
Bobby Figueroa
Ed Carter
Matt Jardine
Richie Cannata
Dean Torrence

For a fan, that seems like a killer lineup because of the association of many of these being genuine Beach Boys band members.  I guess Mike is the attraction in his show, beyond that, any cover band can play Beach Boys songs and sound good.

I simply can't see (oh wait, I can! $$$$$$$ > Legacy) why Mike kills the reputation of the band more and more and more.  

I would have no problem if he toured as Mike Love of the Beach Boys.

How many people turn up to watch Al and his band perform though? The general public sadly don`t really care that those people had a long history of working with The Beach Boys.

The reputation of the band is set in stone due to the music they created in the 60s. The people who go to see the touring group nowadays, who by and large seem happy if ticket sales are anything to go by, get to listen to the hit songs that they expect and their image of The Beach Boys is unchanged.

If, in the future, there is a Beach Boys group with no original members then it will still change nothing.

[Foster's Freeze]

I think you're really underestimating how many people care that it's not brian wilson with the beach boys.

When you add brian and al to the line up they sell out wembley area and the royal Albert hall in minutes, for a reason

In the United States, with people under 35, Brian Wilson is arguably a more meaningful name than the Beach Boys. I work with a bunch of people in their 20s, and nearly everyone knows who BW is -- several have been to see his solo shows. Mention the Beach Boys, and they mention Stamos and laugh.

I think this is an example where AGD's geographical location -- Britain -- affects his understanding of how the band is seen in its biggest market. The BBs without Brian had hits in Britain. That happened precisely once in the U.S. It really does matter to U.S. audiences who is in the band.

You are 100% correct.  My wife only knows "Forever" because of Stamos.   

It does matter to people here who are in the band.  Also the concept of "The Beach Boys" playing at a winery here in the USA is aka "that's a group of has beens - when are they playing the native american casino?"

[KittyKat]

And that is partly Brian's fault. I don't see Brian himself doing these incredible tours of deep cuts and whole albums. He did it in the past, and trotted out Pet Sounds at least once during the Jeff Beck tour, but he's done his fair share of all-oldies tours. Could it be there's a demand for it?

If by fair share, you mean a couple of dozen dates over a couple of summers. They didn't go well, and members of his band (Darian) refused to play them, so he stopped doing them.

I'd like to know where all those American Brian Wilson fans were when he once played a gig for less than 500 people in a hall that held over 3,000. And it was a debut tour for "That Lucky Old Sun," was it not?

Contrast that to a three night stand Brian  once did at the Hollywood Bowl, capacity of around 20,000 per night. It as billed as an all oldies show and featured fireworks. And it sold well.

[Foster's Freeze]

I would think globally there are a lot more people who care about who's on stage - if this is our argument, I could go see a Surf City All-Stars show or even Papa Do Run Run since at any given time SOMEONE in those bands has been onstage or associated with the original Beach Boys.  If they sound as good as the original recordings then what's the difference?  Personally I don't think the Mike Love band sounds like the Beach Boys.  It's Mike with nameless people singing backup but that's just me and I respect what others may think.

The last time I saw Al and his band play there was a LOT of Beach Boys pedigree:

Al Jardine
Billy Hinsche
Bobby Figueroa
Ed Carter
Matt Jardine
Richie Cannata
Dean Torrence

For a fan, that seems like a killer lineup because of the association of many of these being genuine Beach Boys band members.  I guess Mike is the attraction in his show, beyond that, any cover band can play Beach Boys songs and sound good.

I simply can't see (oh wait, I can! $$$$$$$ > Legacy) why Mike kills the reputation of the band more and more and more.  

I would have no problem if he toured as Mike Love of the Beach Boys.

How many people turn up to watch Al and his band perform though? The general public sadly don`t really care that those people had a long history of working with The Beach Boys.

The reputation of the band is set in stone due to the music they created in the 60s. The people who go to see the touring group nowadays, who by and large seem happy if ticket sales are anything to go by, get to listen to the hit songs that they expect and their image of The Beach Boys is unchanged.

If, in the future, there is a Beach Boys group with no original members then it will still change nothing.

And this is where the fan vs. the uninformed fan argument comes into play.  Speaking for myself, I've had probably 30 chances to see "The Beach Boys" since Carl died and I haven't gone once because I know the difference.  I have ZERO interest in seeing Mike and Bruce play in their group because TO ME, they are not "The Beach Boys."  No history with those band members at all.  I know the difference.  Now, when I last saw Al, it wasn't "The Beach Boys" either but it sure looked and sounded better.  I knew those voices and musicians and it felt good to see those guys, some of which had played with the Wilsons and Al since the late 60's.

I agree that the uninformed don't care, they see Mike and think it's 100% legit.