Child Is The Father To Man to be issued in 5.1 surround

[The Shift]

Okay, not our Child Is The Father To Man… but hope for releases many of us here would like to see. From new BigO update:

The audiophile label, Audio Fidelity, will release their first surround sound discs with Al Kooper's 1968 Super Session with Mike Bloomfield and Stephen Stills and the 1976 George Benson album, Breezin'. Kooper's album has an interesting backstory. Prepared for 5.1 surround in 2000s, both Super Sessions and Kooper's Child Is The Father To Man (Blood, Sweat & Tears) were left in the vault when his then label, Columbia, abandoned the SACD format. Audio Fidelity's releases adopt the SACD format and will release Super Session and Benson's Breezin' on August 5. Both titles will be hybrid CD releases with the albums' original stereo mixes as newly remastered by Steve Hoffman and playable on your CD player for stereo.

The back story to these first two releases is interesting… we know unreleased surround mixes of the Surf's Up and Pacific Ocean Blue* albums - could Audio Fidelity's new release programme offer a glimmer of hope for these?

Edit: changed thread title to make it more alluring.

* not sure if this was legit…

[Mikie]

It snot legit.  Both were boots.  In fact, that website is known for boots and boot info.

[The Shift]

Sorry Mikie, I meant the actual mixes, not the releases. Surf's Up was mixed in surround by (I believe) Mark Linett but never released, as the DVD-A format's popularity waned. There was due to be a batch of bonus tracks including vocals-only Surf's Up and Woildnt it Be Nice to Live Again.

In fact I'm surprised that these will be SACD hybrids and not Blu-Ray Audio releases.

I've seen a boot of the POB surround mix but not the Surf's Up surround… was it ever "out there"?

[Mikie]

I don't think I've ever seen/heard the 5.1 version of Surf's Up. I'll look again, but I don't think I have it.

The ones that slipped through my fingers are the Desper Spacial Expansion Audio CD's of Sunflower and Surf's Up. I missed out big time on that brief offering!!

[The Shift]

I don't think I've ever seen/heard the 5.1 version of Surf's Up. I'll look again, but I don't think I have it.

The ones that slipped through my fingers are the Desper Spacial Expansion Audio CD's of Sunflower and Surf's Up. I missed out big time on that brief offering!!

Same here… he more interesting releases always seem to happen when I'm broke or limited in my ability to get to a post office!

[Andrew G. Doe]

It snot legit.  Both were boots.  In fact, that website is known for boots and boot info.

Indeed - that's where Eeyore used to peddle his Smile boots, and boots of many other bands.

Oh, and without access to the multitracks, true 5.1 mixes of the albums named are, of course, impossible.

[Smilin Ed H]

It snot legit.  Both were boots.  In fact, that website is known for boots and boot info.

Indeed - that's where Eeyore used to peddle his Smile boots, and boots of many other bands.

Oh, and without access to the multitracks, true 5.1 mixes of the albums named are, of course, impossible.

Still does...

[Stephen W. Desper]

It snot legit.  Both were boots.  In fact, that website is known for boots and boot info.

Indeed - that's where Eeyore used to peddle his Smile boots, and boots of many other bands.

Oh, and without access to the multitracks, true 5.1 mixes of the albums named are, of course, impossible.

COMMENT:  You are all under the false impression that everything on the Master tape is a mix from the multi-track. That may be true for some bands, and more true with 24 to 48 track multi-tracks, but many of the BB master tapes are unique to themselves and are not the manipulation of pre-recorded multi-track masters.  Some things just cannot be reproduced by using the multi-track as a source.  The original mixes include more tracks than you know that are just the mono source tracks for what was to become a RE-AMP studio stereo and surround source, being completely re-recorded at the time of mixdown. These sounds, present on the multi-track in mono, are forever LOST to any attempt at remixing in whatever format because the original sound is lost. The sound is gone. Then there are a few mixes where a sound is added on the fly, never making it to the multi-track. Other sounds having a mono source on the multi-track go through all manner of manipulation before entering the stereo mix. All that sonic data was created between the multi-track and the master tape -- it too will be lost in any re-mix.

What is a "true 5-1" mix?  I will tell you that it is NOT a production conceived in stereo and re-done in another format. Such attempts are not replacements of the stereo, but completely different animals when finished. Lacking some parts and having an abundance of other tracks without knowing which one to use** is going to produce a different production. Many of the mono and stereo mixes were done at the hand of Carl and Dennis who are no longer with us. This Beach Boy involvement make up the "stuff" of the original production. Any engineer who presumes to re-do what those members of the band did, is just making an entirely new production. It's not something produced by The Beach Boys. Rather it is its own thing -- like something you hear on YouTube.

** Another problem facing remixes is that some songs have extra vocal tracks. That is, the lead or some other part may be recorded using two to six tracks, just for the lead. Then at mixdown parts of one track was used for a phrase, then another lead track for another phrase -- and so on. There is no record of what track was used for which phrase -- this was always done for feel, and would sometimes change at mixdown, depending on the producer. You cannot recreate this stuff. It's complete on the master, but fragmented on the mulit-track, with no guide.   

~swd

[Jason Penick]

It snot legit.  Both were boots.  In fact, that website is known for boots and boot info.

Indeed - that's where Eeyore used to peddle his Smile boots, and boots of many other bands.

Oh, and without access to the multitracks, true 5.1 mixes of the albums named are, of course, impossible.

COMMENT:  You are all under the false impression that everything on the Master tape is a mix from the multi-track. That may be true for some bands, and more true with 24 to 48 track multi-tracks, but many of the BB master tapes are unique to themselves and are not the manipulation of pre-recorded multi-track masters.  Some things just cannot be reproduced by using the multi-track as a source.  The original mixes include more tracks than you know that are just the mono source tracks for what was to become a RE-AMP studio stereo and surround source, being completely re-recorded at the time of mixdown. These sounds, present on the multi-track in mono, are forever LOST to any attempt at remixing in whatever format because the original sound is lost. The sound is gone. Then there are a few mixes where a sound is added on the fly, never making it to the multi-track. Other sounds having a mono source on the multi-track go through all manner of manipulation before entering the stereo mix. All that sonic data was created between the multi-track and the master tape -- it too will be lost in any re-mix.

What is a "true 5-1" mix?  I will tell you that it is NOT a production conceived in stereo and re-done in another format. Such attempts are not replacements of the stereo, but completely different animals when finished. Lacking some parts and having an abundance of other tracks without knowing which one to use** is going to produce a different production. Many of the mono and stereo mixes were done at the hand of Carl and Dennis who are no longer with us. This Beach Boy involvement make up the "stuff" of the original production. Any engineer who presumes to re-do what those members of the band did, is just making an entirely new production. It's not something produced by The Beach Boys. Rather it is its own thing -- like something you hear on YouTube.

** Another problem facing remixes is that some songs have extra vocal tracks. That is, the lead or some other part may be recorded using two to six tracks, just for the lead. Then at mixdown parts of one track was used for a phrase, then another lead track for another phrase -- and so on. There is no record of what track was used for which phrase -- this was always done for feel, and would sometimes change at mixdown, depending on the producer. You cannot recreate this stuff. It's complete on the master, but fragmented on the mulit-track, with no guide.   

~swd

Priceless information there-- thanks, Stephen. I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say that we really value everything you contribute to this board. Speaking for myself here, I find your insight on all things Beach Boys incredibly valuable. Thank you. 

[surferlicious]

I thought only two songs on Sunflower were mixed in compatible quad by Desper., because  most of the album was composed of tracks originally slated for the Last Capitol Album and were mixed slightly before Quad came along.

[PhilCohen]

By the way, the circumstances that led to the major labels abandoning DVD-Audio & SACD are directly related to the harsh per-song/per-disc song mechanical royalties system in the U.S.A., and some song publishers making the unreasonable demand that the record companies pay triple royalties for three-layer DVD-Audio or SACD releases.(for example, an SACD containing  CD stereo, SACD stereo & SACD surround layers). This created a situation where the labels had a choice: not make much money releasing these discs, or price the discs so high as to deter people from buying them. The audiophile labels can get away with (somewhat) higher pricing, which is why some of these long-supressed 5.1 surround mixes(which have been sitting in record company vaults for at least a decade) may soon be liberated from the vaults. In addition to "Kooper/Bloomfield/Stills-Super Session" & "Blood Sweat & Tears-Child is Father To The Man", some other surround mixes that have been gathering dust in record company vaults include "Fleetwood Mac-Tusk" & "The Byrds-5D(Fifth Dimension)"......not to mention many vintage 1970's Quadraphonic mixes.

On another subject, Mr. Doe is apparently enraged that, now, I am no longer clamoring for further unreleased Beach Boys music. I can take it or leave it. If Capitol releases more, I'll buy it. If they don't release more, I won't be broken-hearted. Get used to it Mr.Doe:I'm not begging Capitol, Brother etc. to release any more Beach Boys vault material. The 26 month stressful ordeal that the fans went through to get "Made in California" is NOT something that I am willing to endure, ever again, for anybody's music.

Mr.Doe is still harping about a Southeast Asian website that offers free downloads of permanently unreleased music, and that, in the past, I supplied some music to them. Better that there be websites such as Big O, which only offer unreleased music(versus websites that do actual harm to artists and labels, by offering free downloads of released recordings). Mr.Doe's self-righteous anti-bootleg posturing is hypocrisy. I'm sure that he collected(or at least listened to) many "Smile" bootlegs, in the 10 to 15 years before the recordings were released officially.