New Mike interview in HuffPost

[alf wiedersehen]

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[Mike's Beard]

I chimed here for a bit just to show what people outside think about this stuff, if professional articles and reviews and most comments everywhere are not enough. Bear, Beard & C, you can keep on patting one another's backs and telling one another that you are so cool and spitting on everyone else, but you know what the general consensus is out of here. Maybe that's what makes you so rude, angry and intolerant. Brian is considered by almost everyone able to tell a note from a rat one of the greatest, or even THE greatest songwriter around in the last 50 years, all the rest is delusion.

Nobody is claiming that Brian isn't a great songwriter, only that when someone writes the lyrics to one of his songs they should be, um, credited as doing so maybe?

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Most intelligent post today, (other than my own).

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I chimed here for a bit just to show what people outside think about this stuff, if professional articles and reviews and most comments everywhere are not enough. Bear, Beard & C, you can keep on patting one another's backs and telling one another that you are so cool and spitting on everyone else, but you know what the general consensus is out of here. Maybe that's what makes you so rude, angry and intolerant. Brian is considered by almost everyone able to tell a note from a rat one of the greatest, or even THE greatest songwriter around in the last 50 years, all the rest is delusion.

Nobody is claiming that Brian isn't a great songwriter, only that when someone writes the lyrics to one of his songs they should be, um, credited as doing so maybe?

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Most intelligent post today, (other than my own).

I'll make the claim perfectly comfortably that while, yes, being one of the greatest composers of the last 50 years, Brian is still overrated. Lots of folks around here are seeing to it.

Brian, as gifted as he was, had A LOT of help. He had talented singers at his disposal who, in addition to being willing to submit to his every demand, COULD DELIVER. This same band was also capable of going out and touring the world and being damn great without him, not to mention able to write/produce/sing their own incredible material when necessary with little or no input from Brian.. He had lots of talented lyricists and musicians who helped his amazing imagination translate into amazing records. Not an easy feat by anyone involved..... None of this makes Brian any less great, but it does call into question some of the extremely narrow minded viewpoints of Brian and his career/gifts. I mean, he wasn't  exactly Stevie Wonder who wrote, sang, and played all the instruments all by himself for like 90% of his great stuff.....

[KittyKat]

I think it also comes down to anyone perceived as "attacking" Brian is seen as akin to attacking a baby or a baby harp seal or a baby sea otter. He seems so helpless and cuddly and lovable, with that baby-looking face even in old age and his gentle exterior demeanor and quiet ways. 

[SurfRiderHawaii]

What a day.
First, this thread crashes and burns. Now I hear the Jonas Brothers have broken up.  

[Niko]

"Where were you when the Jonas Brother's broke up?"

Truly a sad week 

[Jonathan Blum]

Let's say that back in the day Brian could fire Murry and Murry wrote letters about how he couldn't control Brian but for some reason Brian couldn't get the names correct on a form before he signed them.

I find it much easier to picture a twentysomething rock star firing someone and being uncontrollable, than to picture him reading paperwork carefully.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Andrew G. Doe]

Tony Asher relates the tale of people discovering he was hanging with Brian begging him to pass a message because (if I recall correctly) they were only trying to pay him money. Likewise he recalled seeing a check for something like $200,000 lying around, uncashed.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I became a fan in 1995, and joined the old Mike Wheeler board a year later.  I became a fan during that brief time where BW was considered to be a god amongst indie rock circles. During that time Brian was the one to be admired and did no wrong, and the rest of the band was an embarrassment (this was before Jon's book made DW regain his rightful stature). That wasn't any more accurate than the flip side. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle.

This was most neatly expressed by a small quote I saw in one of the leading fan publications of the late 80s, I think: "At last, people realize it's Brian and the five dwarfs". The name attached to that quote made me do a double-take.

[Please delete my account]

I became a fan in 1995, and joined the old Mike Wheeler board a year later.  I became a fan during that brief time where BW was considered to be a god amongst indie rock circles. During that time Brian was the one to be admired and did no wrong, and the rest of the band was an embarrassment (this was before Jon's book made DW regain his rightful stature). That wasn't any more accurate than the flip side. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle.

This was most neatly expressed by a small quote I saw in one of the leading fan publications of the late 80s, I think: "At last, people realize it's Brian and the five dwarfs". The name attached to that quote made me do a double-take.

Mike Love?

[Cam Mott]

In the 60s Brian routinely stood up to Capitol, his dad and the Boys. He signed the docs, Brian admits he knew it was happening and it was wrong, he didn't do anything to correct it. He could have voluntarily paid Mike the royalties he was wrongly collecting but he didn't. He bears responsibility and he can own it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I became a fan in 1995, and joined the old Mike Wheeler board a year later.  I became a fan during that brief time where BW was considered to be a god amongst indie rock circles. During that time Brian was the one to be admired and did no wrong, and the rest of the band was an embarrassment (this was before Jon's book made DW regain his rightful stature). That wasn't any more accurate than the flip side. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle.

This was most neatly expressed by a small quote I saw in one of the leading fan publications of the late 80s, I think: "At last, people realize it's Brian and the five dwarfs". The name attached to that quote made me do a double-take.

Mike Love?

Nope. Major-league fan.

[guitarfool2002]

Tony Asher relates the tale of people discovering he was hanging with Brian begging him to pass a message because (if I recall correctly) they were only trying to pay him money. Likewise he recalled seeing a check for something like $200,000 lying around, uncashed.

Backed up by Hal Blaine in another and the more-often told story of an accountant coming to Brian with a check while he was working in the studio, and Brian getting angry with him. Whatever version Hal tells, Brian was yelling at him because he was listening to a take, and all the guy wanted was to have Brian endorse a check which Hal said was also in the six-figure range.

[guitarfool2002]

Next personal attack in this thread gets a lifetime ban. I don't care which side it comes from either. This thread is beyond disgusting. If any of you can't post without throwing childish insults at each other, then take it to PM or just leave. I am quite frankly disgusted by the lack of maturity in this thread. I get it...the two sides disagree completely. That's okay. What is not okay is some of the things being said to one another. Have some motherfucking DECENCY for goodness' sake

Seconded. I'm backing Billy 100% on this. Tread lightly or take it to PMs.

 

It's a real shame to see this because I thought the thread might go toward putting out information, interviews, and other issues around the case to get a better understanding of what was going on under the surface. I thought everything posted related to discussing the facts of it was a pretty good source of information for people to weigh the elements and decide for themselves what was the case.

Unfortunately facts, legal stuff, and interviews don't carry as much weight as deeply held personal beliefs or biases about the case itself and the people involved, and the deeper issues too.

Which is why it devolved into what seems to have been the disgusting elements. When the facts and evidence don't agree with the larger bias, it gets personal.

It's a shame because I put a lot of motherfucking time into this, too, and not designed to "win" but to get it out there for discussion. It's a shame I didn't see HeyJude's Mike interview segment earlier, I could have saved a lot of that motherfucking time. But on the good side, if I ever in the second half of my life decide to become a lawyer, I know what I'll base some of my research papers on.  It was fun actually getting to know the facts behind the case's headlines and mythology.

It's not the thread's fault or the topic's fault or the board's fault for things getting personal. Just like it's not the fault of the 30 kids sitting in a 4th grade classroom reading their books if two out of those 30 students starts acting up and throwing throwing stuff around.

I hope some new information came out in this thread, at least.

[filledeplage]

Next personal attack in this thread gets a lifetime ban. I don't care which side it comes from either. This thread is beyond disgusting. If any of you can't post without throwing childish insults at each other, then take it to PM or just leave. I am quite frankly disgusted by the lack of maturity in this thread. I get it...the two sides disagree completely. That's okay. What is not okay is some of the things being said to one another. Have some motherfucking DECENCY for goodness' sake

Seconded. I'm backing Billy 100% on this. Tread lightly or take it to PMs.

It's a real shame to see this because I thought the thread might go toward putting out information, interviews, and other issues around the case to get a better understanding of what was going on under the surface. I thought everything posted related to discussing the facts of it was a pretty good source of information for people to weigh the elements and decide for themselves what was the case.

Unfortunately facts, legal stuff, and interviews don't carry as much weight as deeply held personal beliefs or biases about the case itself and the people involved, and the deeper issues too.

Which is why it devolved into what seems to have been the disgusting elements. When the facts and evidence don't agree with the larger bias, it gets personal.

It's a shame because I put a lot of motherfucking time into this, too, and not designed to "win" but to get it out there for discussion. It's a shame I didn't see HeyJude's Mike interview segment earlier, I could have saved a lot of that motherfucking time. But on the good side, if I ever in the second half of my life decide to become a lawyer, I know what I'll base some of my research papers on.  It was fun actually getting to know the facts behind the case's headlines and mythology.

It's not the thread's fault or the topic's fault or the board's fault for things getting personal. Just like it's not the fault of the 30 kids sitting in a 4th grade classroom reading their books if two out of those 30 students starts acting up and throwing throwing stuff around.

I hope some new information came out in this thread, at least.

Thanks for your insight.  You did do a pretty good analysis, for a non-lawyer. 

Go for it!

There are posters whose minds you won't change, despite any articulation of the facts or court finding.  They don't get the concept of a "business entity" and the difference as between a suit between people and between and among business entities. 

There are also those of us who've been around the block long enough to see more sides of this epic music.  It is all good. 
If I didn't love the BB's - I'd never have seen Beck because of Brian or Al's band.  I think it is more a "sphere" than one dimensional.  But some view the world differently.  You did a great job! 

We have a different frame of reference.  I still maintain Mike was sincere.  He seems to feel that it is a huge waste of humanity and talent as regards drugs.  It doesn't impress me as contempt so much as regret for "what might have been."
And, I agree. 

Dennis died for nothing.  And smokes killed Carl.  It is a waste and he has every right to articulate that frustration. There is still a video with Mike and CalSaga.  I think they agree as well. 

Keep up the great unbiased work. Plenty of "lurkers" out there have learned much.  A  for you!

And Kokomaoist is as nasty as Brianista. No need to be nasty on either side.  And why are there sides? 

Just to toss out...can anyone sing or hum California Girls, and set a line of demarcation as between the music and words? I don't think so.  They are so intertwined, that they are indivisible work product for the listener.

 How does one extricate one from the other? 

[ontor pertawst]

By playing an instrumental?

 I guess we can pretend Mike's lyrics are as accomplished as those backing tracks and playful mastery of 60s studio technology if it makes some people feel better. For some reason threads analyzing the lyrics rather than the music don't seem to be very popular, tho. Maybe an extensive exegesis of those California Girls lyrics will change my mind and I'll understand they are just as brilliant as the music.

I doubt it, as they make me cringe. Warmth of the Sun works when people use it in this context... then I go: "well, alright... good point." I'll just pretend you said Warmth of the Sun and nod.

Enjoyed all the legal gibberish and details on this thread! Please put all this kind of stuff in a book and not some thread where a one line response tell you to take a rest or something.

[guitarfool2002]

Thank you! That was very cool.

The point about California Girls is crucial, and very well put. Recall that throughout the sessions, there was no name, title, or lyrics for the song. Brian had a full arrangement and production in his head, and recorded those ideas. Yet the results of all of those nameless takes (which amusingly if you've heard the full run have Carl messing up the 12-string guitar part so often, Brian starts making jokes about all the "bloopers" from the booth, and brings humor into what could have been frustrating for all parties) are a masterful instrumental track, a great arrangement and feel.

But without the lyrics and the theme, it's an instrumental. Great point. In this case "California Girls" is something of a benchmark in understanding the larger issues at hand, versus some of the other song contributions being debated.

[Robbie Mac]

Next personal attack in this thread gets a lifetime ban. I don't care which side it comes from either. This thread is beyond disgusting. If any of you can't post without throwing childish insults at each other, then take it to PM or just leave. I am quite frankly disgusted by the lack of maturity in this thread. I get it...the two sides disagree completely. That's okay. What is not okay is some of the things being said to one another. Have some motherfucking DECENCY for goodness' sake

Seconded. I'm backing Billy 100% on this. Tread lightly or take it to PMs.

 

It's a real shame to see this because I thought the thread might go toward putting out information, interviews, and other issues around the case to get a better understanding of what was going on under the surface. I thought everything posted related to discussing the facts of it was a pretty good source of information for people to weigh the elements and decide for themselves what was the case.

Unfortunately facts, legal stuff, and interviews don't carry as much weight as deeply held personal beliefs or biases about the case itself and the people involved, and the deeper issues too.

Which is why it devolved into what seems to have been the disgusting elements. When the facts and evidence don't agree with the larger bias, it gets personal.

It's a shame because I put a lot of motherfucking time into this, too, and not designed to "win" but to get it out there for discussion. It's a shame I didn't see HeyJude's Mike interview segment earlier, I could have saved a lot of that motherfucking time. But on the good side, if I ever in the second half of my life decide to become a lawyer, I know what I'll base some of my research papers on.  It was fun actually getting to know the facts behind the case's headlines and mythology.

It's not the thread's fault or the topic's fault or the board's fault for things getting personal. Just like it's not the fault of the 30 kids sitting in a 4th grade classroom reading their books if two out of those 30 students starts acting up and throwing throwing stuff around.

I hope some new information came out in this thread, at least.

Craig, I just want to thank you for your posts on the lawsuit. It's obvious that you did a great deal of research on this subject and I  for one, am greatly appreciative of what you do.

[guitarfool2002]

Craig, I just want to thank you for your posts on the lawsuit. It's obvious that you did a great deal of research on this subject and I  for one, am greatly appreciative of what you do.

Thank you very much! There was and is a lot of missing information about this story, and I'm amazed at some of the points that have been left out of the summary I think many fans have accepted about the lawsuit saga in general. What I thought it was turned out to be wrong on point after point, and it was really neat to actually dig into the case. I just wish I could be more concise and less wordy!   

[ontor pertawst]

I don't! I see your posts and go "Ah! Substance!" It's nice to see. I just manage modulated snark and sporadically effective wordplay. Keep digging, keep scanning!

[guitarfool2002]

By playing an instrumental?

 I guess we can pretend Mike's lyrics are as accomplished as those backing tracks and playful mastery of 60s studio technology if it makes some people feel better. For some reason threads analyzing the lyrics rather than the music don't seem to be very popular, tho. Maybe an extensive exegesis of those California Girls lyrics will change my mind and I'll understand they are just as brilliant as the music.

I doubt it, as they make me cringe. Warmth of the Sun works when people use it in this context... then I go: "well, alright... good point." I'll just pretend you said Warmth of the Sun and nod.

Enjoyed all the legal gibberish and details on this thread! Please put all this kind of stuff in a book and not some thread where a one line response tell you to take a rest or something.

Our posts on California Girls overlapped, but this point is valid too. How do you weigh such credits in the long run? I can't answer that, it's one for the ages to ponder. For me and my musical ear I listen most to the music, the production, the groove, all of those music-related elements. Many more listeners who aren't musicians listen to the words, want a melody to sing along with, or beyond that want to hear a good story in the words. That doesn't matter to me, as much, but then again if I play a song for someone not tuned into the production elements and say "Listen to that groove!", I might get a blank stare.

Music in that way is fascinating because of all the elements that need to come together in exactly the right way to create a timeless classic. And the mysterious part is how individuals would weigh which elements carry more weight in making those determinations. Some say they hear lyrics and melody first, some like me latch onto the groove and foundation in the music. The only solution for crediting, I think, is to shake hands on an agreement or else do what John and Paul did and agree to split everything down the middle and call it "Lennon-McCartney", regardless of who did what on the song.  

[ontor pertawst]

Definitely -- great points. I realize it's all personal opinion. For me, unless it's a songwriter like Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, or a Serge Gainsbourg type with lines that actually make me go "Ooo, clever!" rather than cringe, I'm definitely more into the music and concentrate on that. I can totally understand someone relating to California Girls based on the lyrics and having them cast a nostalgic if slightly objectifying spell on them that are as equally important as that little intro or the demented riff is to to me.

What crazy hit and miss alchemy it all is.

[drbeachboy]

The fact that I can go to a Beach Boys or Brian Wilson concert and I hear the audience singing along with just about every hit record, tells me that in rock and roll lyrics are a very important ingredient to a good song. Doesn't matter whether it's Mike's, Gary's, Roger's, Tony's or Van Dyke's, good lyrics make for good and memorable songs.

[ontor pertawst]

Sure! It's just interesting how people respond to it all differently. 

[filledeplage]

By playing an instrumental?

 I guess we can pretend Mike's lyrics are as accomplished as those backing tracks and playful mastery of 60s studio technology if it makes some people feel better. For some reason threads analyzing the lyrics rather than the music don't seem to be very popular, tho. Maybe an extensive exegesis of those California Girls lyrics will change my mind and I'll understand they are just as brilliant as the music.

I doubt it, as they make me cringe. Warmth of the Sun works when people use it in this context... then I go: "well, alright... good point." I'll just pretend you said Warmth of the Sun and nod.

Enjoyed all the legal gibberish and details on this thread! Please put all this kind of stuff in a book and not some thread where a one line response tell you to take a rest or something.

Our posts on California Girls overlapped, but this point is valid too. How do you weigh such credits in the long run? I can't answer that, it's one for the ages to ponder. For me and my musical ear I listen most to the music, the production, the groove, all of those music-related elements. Many more listeners who aren't musicians listen to the words, want a melody to sing along with, or beyond that want to hear a good story in the words. That doesn't matter to me, as much, but then again if I play a song for someone not tuned into the production elements and say "Listen to that groove!", I might get a blank stare.

Music in that way is fascinating because of all the elements that need to come together in exactly the right way to create a timeless classic. And the mysterious part is how individuals would weigh which elements carry more weight in making those determinations. Some say they hear lyrics and melody first, some like me latch onto the groove and foundation in the music. The only solution for crediting, I think, is to shake hands on an agreement or else do what John and Paul did and agree to split everything down the middle and call it "Lennon-McCartney", regardless of who did what on the song.  

Or, Help Me, Rhonda! Mike found a "common concept of understanding" (what everyone would "get") and "accessed that" for the listener.

Once that "merger" happens, the works seems "indivisible."  

The song "works" because the words have meaning and reach into a common experience, and that refrain, baby, is something to shout,  I challenge anyone who doesn't like Mike to TRY to sing that song without the words, after you've been "dumped"  or think back to being dumped.  On youtube, at one c50 show, Al says "We've ALL been there!
Help Me, Rhonda! YEAH!  

Try singing it - At a concert, without the words? And, keep a straight face?  It is an infectious song!  And hate Mike? Seriously?