The Beach Boys and The Enneagram

[DonnyL]

I've been meaning to introduce a thread discussing the Beach Boys and the Enneagram for awhile now, and the thread Justin just started got me going ...

My wife has a psychology degree and has educated me on a system called the Enneagram over the last few years. I've found it to be very helpful in dealing with personal problems and overcoming them, toward a path of emotional and psychic health.

The system is somewhat complex, but there are nine basic types (with some overlapping between them, called 'wings'). Once you learn about the nine types, it can become fairly easy to 'type' your friends, family members, etc.

Since I think about the Beach Boys quite a bit, I couldn't help but try to 'type' them individually. In doing this, you can see their motivations and fears fairly clearly, and some of the decisions made by the group make a lot more sense within this context. It's been fascinating for me, and I hope the Smiley folks reading this can get something out of this thread.

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Mike, 8: Eights are self-confident, strong, and assertive. Protective, resourceful, straight-talking, and decisive, but can also be ego-centric and domineering. Eights feel they must control their environment, especially people, sometimes becoming confrontational and intimidating. Eights typically have problems with their tempers and with allowing themselves to be vulnerable. At their Best: self- mastering, they use their strength to improve others' lives, becoming heroic, magnanimous, and inspiring. Key Motivations: Want to be self-reliant, to prove their strength and resist weakness, to be important in their world, to dominate the environment, and to stay in control of their situation. Basic Fear: Of being harmed or controlled by others. Basic Desire: To protect themselves (to be in control of their own life and destiny).

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Brian, 5: Fives are alert, insightful, and curious. They are able to concentrate and focus on developing complex ideas and skills. Independent, innovative, and inventive, they can also become preoccupied with their thoughts and imaginary constructs. They become detached, yet high-strung and intense. They typically have problems with eccentricity, nihilism, and isolation. At their Best: visionary pioneers, often ahead of their time, and able to see the world in an entirely new way. Key Motivations: Want to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment. Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable. Basic Desire: To be capable and competent.

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Dennis, 7 (with an 8 wing, which explains why he and Mike often butted heads): Sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneous. Playful, high-spirited, and practical, they can also misapply their many talents, becoming over- extended, scattered, and undisciplined. They constantly seek new and exciting experiences, but can become distracted and exhausted by staying on the go. They typically have problems with impatience and impulsiveness. At their Best: they focus their talents on worthwhile goals, becoming appreciative, joyous, and satisfied. Basic Fear: Of being deprived and in pain. Basic Desire: To be satisfied and content—to have their needs fulfilled. Key Motivations: Want to maintain their freedom and happiness, to avoid missing out on worthwhile experiences, to keep themselves excited and occupied, to avoid and discharge pain.

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Carl and Bruce, 9 ( I think Carl and Bruce were both 9s, but Carl's wing was a 1 and Bruce's is an 8 ): Nines are accepting, trusting, and stable. They are usually creative, optimistic, and supportive, but can also be too willing to go along with others to keep the peace. They want everything to go smoothly and be without conflict, but they can also tend to be complacent, simplifying problems and minimizing anything upsetting. They typically have problems with inertia and stubbornness. At their Best: indomitable and all-embracing, they are able to bring people together and heal conflicts. Basic Fear: Of loss and separation. Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind".

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Al, 6: The committed, security-oriented type. Sixes are reliable, hard-working, responsible, and trustworthy. Excellent "troubleshooters," they foresee problems and foster cooperation, but can also become defensive, evasive, and anxious—running on stress while complaining about it. They can be cautious and indecisive, but also reactive, defiant and rebellious. They typically have problems with self-doubt and suspicion. At their Best: internally stable and self-reliant, courageously championing themselves and others. Basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance. Basic Desire: To have security and support. Key Motivations: Want to have security, to feel supported by others, to have certitude and reassurance, to test the attitudes of others toward them, to fight against anxiety and insecurity.

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(source: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/)

Anyone else have any experience and interest in the Enneagram? I'd love to hear any insight regarding if you think I've typed the group properly, and how your opinions may differ.

For those of you interested, you can also take a self-test at the site above (there is a free version), but beware many people mistype themselves because we tend to see ourselves how we want to be rather than how we are. Personally, I am a 4 (wing 3): Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity. At their Best: inspired and highly creative, they are able to renew themselves and transform their experiences. Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance. Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity). Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."

[Justin]

Incredibly interesting and a fresh way to look at the dynamics of our favorite (wacky) band.  I took the self test and I'm apparently between a 5 and a 6!

When you see the mix of different types--it's no wonder this band has gone through the ups and downs that it has.  Now I wanna see if I could "type" my other favorite bands....

[Smile4ever]

I've always wondered about the Beach Boys and their Myers Briggs types.

Mike--ESTJ
Brian--ISFP?
The rest--?

http://www.16personalities.com/type-descriptions

[KittyKat]

I'd peg Brian as more of an INTP, IMO. Though I'm not that convinced of the value of Myers-Briggs. I don't think Brian ever had to consider his career options, so things like personality tests weren't really necessary for him.

[Don Malcolm]

Donny, I think that the Enneagrams are a fascinating way to examine character traits and tendencies. It seems to me that the basic types you've assigned are accurate, but I wonder if you could "simulate" the RHETI test for each member by answering the questions as if you were each band member...if you did that, you'd capture all of the secondary/tertiary data that the report generates. For example, when I take the test, I usually score strongly in three types: 1, 5, 8, with strong tertiary scores for 3 and 7. It would be interesting to see some of that info for each of the BBs, and could add some interesting detail to any analysis that was undertaken using the method...

[Smile4ever]

I'd peg Brian as more of an INTP, IMO. Though I'm not that convinced of the value of Myers-Briggs. I don't think Brian ever had to consider his career options, so things like personality tests weren't really necessary for him.

Haha good point. Why do you think of him as INTP, out of curiosity? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I tend to believe he was a "feeler" for the third letter because he was very sensitive (though INTPs sometimes are, of course) and he wasn't necessarily incredibly logical. He did a lot on impulse. The N/S is hard for me to peg because he obviously had such heightened senses, but was a visionary with his music. So I've always been a bit confused with how that would play out in his case. Additionally, Wilson was very conscious and expressive of his feeling (particularly through music) a trait not necessarily common to INTPs. Another difference between most INTPs is that he was never very strong verbally. But he definitely has the spacy INTP personality trait.

[DonnyL]

Donny, I think that the Enneagrams are a fascinating way to examine character traits and tendencies. It seems to me that the basic types you've assigned are accurate, but I wonder if you could "simulate" the RHETI test for each member by answering the questions as if you were each band member...if you did that, you'd capture all of the secondary/tertiary data that the report generates. For example, when I take the test, I usually score strongly in three types: 1, 5, 8, with strong tertiary scores for 3 and 7. It would be interesting to see some of that info for each of the BBs, and could add some interesting detail to any analysis that was undertaken using the method...

Wow, your type seems all over the place! Generally, I find the tests to be only a basic guideline. You may actually do better by reading the descriptions (possibly with someone else who knows you well), and actually seeing which one fits you best.

Another thing to point out is that with the Enneagram, all 9 points are interconnected -- that is to say, there's a little of every type in all of us. But you have only one main type which will never change. Your wings may change over time though (you can only have a wing of an adjacent type, FYI).

There are also three subtypes: Self-Preservationist (focused on self), Sexual (focused on another individual), or Social (focused on a group). Additionally, There are 9 levels of health (3 in each range of unhealthy, average and healthy).

I'd say that Carl was generally a healthy 9, whereas Bruce seems to be an average 9. Carl's 1 wing would make him lean toward a sense of objective morality, whereas Bruce's 8 wing may cause him to be more aggressive or disagreeable at times. Nines also tend to 'merge' with another person ... they are the type that is the most impressionable, and can easily take on the characteristics of another person. I believe that Carl was merged with Brian for a long period of time in the late '60s-early '70s. And I think Bruce has merged with Mike in recent years.

With the way the Enneagram connects, each type goes to a particular point during times of comfort or times of stress ... that is, they exhibit characteristics of a different (often opposite) type for short periods.

One thing that is very telling about Brian as a 5, is this: When a 5 is comfortable, they go to 8 ... so Brian would act more like Mike in a situation where he is comfortable ... such as the studio. You often hear the stories of Brian being introverted, until he hit the studio, where he would behave like 'General Patton'. When a 5 is under stress, they go to 7 -- so Brian under stress would behave almost like Dennis. We've all heard stories to support this as well.

Personally, I don't put much value on the Meyers-Briggs stuff ... I think the Enneagram is more dynamic, complex, and true to life. It also has roots in spiritualism. The root of each type is 'lost childhood messages'. It's a fine way to organize people's motivations and fears, and help understand others and help yourself become a better, more well-rounded person as well.  

[chrs_mrgn]

I am apparently a type 5 and the next closest are 7,4,2

[Loaf]

I don't find this kind of categorisation helpful at all.

[The Shift]

I keep mis-reading the thread title as "enema", which is something else entirely…

Sorry

[anazgnos]

http://www.skepdic.com/enneagr.html

Like anything else these things can be fun and useful for self-reflection, but I think it's a mistake to imagine that these "types" or categories are in any way "real".  The whole system is deeply bound up in a pretty flakey new-agey worldview, and there can be a narcissism-feeding component to these systems that purport to explain everything about person.  By and large I think people just reading lists of traits so they can go "oh, that's totally me!", I've done it myself many times.

As far as applying it to the Beach Boys I thought their D&D alignment charts were more instructive:

Brian = Neutral Good
Carl = Lawful Good
Dennis = Chaotic Neutral
Al = Lawful Neutral
Mike = Lawful Evil

[DonnyL]

http://www.skepdic.com/enneagr.html

Like anything else these things can be fun and useful for self-reflection, but I think it's a mistake to imagine that these "types" or categories are in any way "real".  The whole system is deeply bound up in a pretty flakey new-agey worldview, and there can be a narcissism-feeding component to these systems that purport to explain everything about person.  By and large I think people just reading lists of traits so they can go "oh, that's totally me!", I've done it myself many times.

As far as applying it to the Beach Boys I thought their D&D alignment charts were more instructive:

Brian = Neutral Good
Carl = Lawful Good
Dennis = Chaotic Neutral
Al = Lawful Neutral
Mike = Lawful Evil

Not sure what you mean by "real" ... as in scientific? No, Enneagram is not scientific, nor could any system related to personality be. In fact, psychology in general could be considered unscientific. The Enneagram is at it's root, I think, self-help. I know that it has been invaluable to me in understanding and bettering myself, as well as understanding (and possibly helping) others.

The author of the site you linked to above seems to have a misunderstanding of the system in any case, and it is apparent that he did only a cursory survey of the system and dismissed it, essentially out of hand. You only need to look at his 'sources' to see that he did not even consult ANY of the reputable books written about the Enneagram, which are really the only way to legitimately understand the system.