You've Lost 'You've Lost That Loving Feelin's's Loving Feelin'

[Wirestone]

Sorry this is so long, but i feel there's a lot to say in response to what i see as dismissive replies...

This is spot on. Very well said. Glad you mentioned the Please Let Me Wonder stereo remix -  that one is slathered with reverb. Like "opera house" mode on an AV receiver. Sounds closer to Getcha Back than anything from 1965. Miles away from the excellent mixing on the Pet Sounds box. Reverb aside the mix is so narrow it might as well be a mono. Shut Down on SOS is worse....witness the massive phasing in the intro.

I have listened to Please Let Me Wonder about five times in a row and I can't hear any excessive reverb at all. The track is untouched, the vocals have a nice spread to them....


I don't know what to make of this thread  

After reading that post, I too went back to listen to the stereo PLMW. Didn't hear anything that off about it. Odd.

[monicker]

It is my hope that one day a "purist" is appointed to handle the Beach Boys catalogue and future reissues -- someone who will make it a point to present the music in the most faithful way possible with no interference or their own personal artistic liberties, someone who understands that they should be in the backseat, playing as minimal a role as possible, when presenting historical recordings that they had nothing to do with originally. You'd think that would be a given.

The problem with being a "purist" and trying to stick with the original historical recording decisions, is that the biggest of those historical recording decisions was not to ever release the song.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Really?

You're right. That's a great point. I've now changed my mind -- unreleased songs should never be released. Glad that problem's solved.

What do we talk about now?

It's not the most terrible point in the world. You want a purist in there? We should never have heard Soulful Old Man Sunshine because Carl specifically didn't want it released. To pick one example. Alan disagreed and it came out on Endless Harmony. Is he not a purist?

You are talking about the two people who are employed to sort out The Beach Boys vaults, and get it past the bastards at Capitol. They have just given us the 74 Cali Feelin' demo unadulterated. And WIBNTLA (by god, do I hate that acronym), which they've been trying to do for at least six years.

And because they put some reverb on a vocal you want them fired? Come on.

I would appreciate it if you stopped oversimplifying and putting it in such aggressive terms (i.e. “firing”) because that is not how i’ve expressed it. I am not that crass or presumptuous. I simply stated a desire to one day see someone else be given the opportunity to take a stab at the catalogue and bring a new approach. Or even the current personnel adopting a different approach could work! It is not that i desire for anyone to be FIRED. It’s about having some alternatives. What is wrong with that? Do we all need to be uncritical fans of everything? This has nothing to do with business practices and how well one can finesse a corporate record label, so no need to feed me the “be grateful for what we’ve been given” bit. I’m talking solely about engineering here.

And it is most certainly not, as you keep dismissively suggesting, because of reverb on a vocal (even with this i think you’re deliberately missing the point -- you think the reverb on YLTLF is on the vocal alone?). I am not going to actually enumerate the reasons why i feel this way. There’s no point in that, but suffice it to say that it’s not because of a single minor issue with this release alone. I am entitled to generally not be a fan of one’s work after evaluating pretty much all of it over many years. You are being reductive here and i think you know it. I’m thinking it would take something as blatant as applying a heavy flanger effect to an entire mix for you to see where i’m coming from. How would you feel about something that extreme? Where's your arbitrary threshold for these things? Again, the issue (at least the one issue in this thread) is about drastically coloring a production decades after the fact.

Regarding your other point, which was building on Jon Blum’s, i initially put the word purist in quotations because it’s a relative term, and therefore kind of meaningless, and it’s generally used disparagingly, which i don’t necessarily align myself with. At any rate, what i meant was a “purist” approach to the sound and presentation of the music and production. As Donny said, and i have already said this too, taking a “conservative” approach rather than an active, artistic one. I’m not talking about extra-musical issues like whether or not something that was initially unreleased should stay unreleased to honor the artist's original decision and for the sake of staying “pure.” That is a whole other can of worms (even an ethical issue). Come on. Does this really need to be explained?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just re-listened to "YLTLF" on the box, then A/B'd it with the version we've all known for decades. No comparison. To people like me who've lived with the track for over 30 years, the box remix is close to unlistenable. Brian did use heavy Moog bass and he didn't record it in a grain silo.

And if we're talking historical accuracy here, compare with the Love You recordings. Is there ludicrous amounts of reverb all over those ?

[monicker]

^ I was just thinking that earlier -- if you're gonna do a remix and add reverb, why wouldn't you go for the type of reverb that's characteristic of the records of that era, i.e. 15BO/LY? Further, why strip the dynamics that seemed to have been deliberately created with the dry verses/echo choruses? The only thing i can think of is that it's a Spector cover and, you know, Spector = THE WALL OF SOUND, MAN. But there's nothing from that period of Brian's productions that has that approach to room size. I can't even think of an example from when Brian was at the height of his Spector influence and using the Wrecking Crew in the same studios where he used reverb that big. It also just sounds so glassy and cold, the antithesis of the warmth of the echo chambers that this is clearly trying to emulate.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

^ I was just thinking that earlier -- if you're gonna do a remix and add reverb, why wouldn't you go for the type of reverb that's characteristic of the records of that era, i.e. 15BO/LY? Further, why strip the dynamics that seemed to have been deliberately created with the dry verses/echo choruses? The only thing i can think of is that it's a Spector cover and, you know, Spector = THE WALL OF SOUND, MAN. But there's nothing from that period of Brian's productions that has that approach to room size. I can't even think of an example from when Brian was at the height of his Spector influence and using the Wrecking Crew in the same studios where he used reverb that big. It also just sounds so glassy and cold, the antithesis of the warmth of the echo chambers that this is clearly trying to emulate.

I agree. It's one thing to add reverb... it's another to add  a huge amount of digital reverb which didn't exist when the track was done! No offense to Mark, whom I respect, but it sounded a bit amateurish. I'm not entirely convinced it was his decision, personally. One positive aspect... due to the increased stereo separation there are a few newly heard parts...either that or there were other parts recorded that weren't on the boot for whatever reason.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Just re-listened to "YLTLF" on the box, then A/B'd it with the version we've all known for decades. No comparison. To people like me who've lived with the track for over 30 years, the box remix is close to unlistenable. Brian did use heavy Moog bass and he didn't record it in a grain silo.

And if we're talking historical accuracy here, compare with the Love You recordings. Is there ludicrous amounts of reverb all over those ?

You must be on kinda friendly terms with these guys right? If and when you next speak to them, please question them re YLTLF at the earliest opportunity, because it's the one decision on the entire box that just completely baffles me and for which I can think of no justification whatsoever, and I really want to know why they did it... They really have just ruined it. Hence why I started this thread.

[DonnyL]

The stereo 'Please Let Me Wonder' sounds fine to me ... much prefer the original mono of course.

[SonicVolcano]

I think the MIC version is fine, really.

[Paulos]

I think the MIC version is fine, really.

+1

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan and Mark never grace this board again with all the negative and borderline insulting comments thrown their way.

[pixletwin]

I'm glad I didn't live with the bootlegged YLTLF because I also think it sounds fantastic.

[HeyJude]

I think the MIC version is fine, really.

+1

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan and Mark never grace this board again with all the negative and borderline insulting comments thrown their way.

I haven’t scanned every comment on the remixes on the “MIC”, but simply saying one doesn’t prefer some of the remixes or the remix style is not some sort of vicious attack that warrants running away from this board. I don’t think Boyd or Linett have posted much here in ages. I hope they do of course.

I am not really a purist. I LOVE stereo remixes. I think many if not most can agree that one reason to do stereo remixes, especially when we’re talking about 60’s material previously only available in mono and previous mixed using bounce-down tapes, etc., is to open the mix up and allow for more things to be heard, both vocals and instruments. The problem with adding a lot of reverb/echo is that this partially (or in my opinion sometimes completely) nullifies the effects of mixing in stereo to open things up. It mucks everything up. Every one of these mixes is different. The new “Country Air” remix is pretty good I think. The stereo remixes of things like “Please Let Me Wonder” or “You’re So Good to Me” have such an over-the-top amount of reverb added, I was stunned when I first heard them on the “Warmth of the Sun” compilation. I literally thought I had hit “Opera House” on my digital receiver. That is not hyperbole. I was really disappointed with some of the recent stereo remixes on material from this era, because the idea to me was to open the mixes up since they were sometimes a bit muddy due to how they were mixed from bounce-down tapes. But it’s also not hyperbole to say that the original mono mix of “You’re So Good To Me” literally has more clarity to me.

The fact that we’re also getting in some cases a lot of reverb added to later-era recordings that didn’t suffer some of the technical limitations of 60’s mixing suggests to me that it is a pattern running through a lot of the work of some of these engineers. I just don’t prefer it, and don’t really understand it. The 1996 “Pet Sounds” stereo mix was awesome, and that was all Linett. I don’t know what happened. I’m willing to entertain the idea that Brian sits in and asks for tons of reverb; he certainly adds it to some of his solo stuff too. But some of that solo stuff is engineered by Linett too, so I’m not sure who’s creative decision it is.

[Mikie]

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan and Mark never grace this board again with all the negative and borderline insulting comments thrown their way.

I would call it "constructive criticism". 

Can't remember reading any personal attacks toward them. One guy supposedly called for their firing but I can't find the post.

[Cabinessenceking]

Just re-listened to "YLTLF" on the box, then A/B'd it with the version we've all known for decades. No comparison. To people like me who've lived with the track for over 30 years, the box remix is close to unlistenable. Brian did use heavy Moog bass and he didn't record it in a grain silo.

And if we're talking historical accuracy here, compare with the Love You recordings. Is there ludicrous amounts of reverb all over those ?

There is much reverb on the Spector produced original. Perhaps they wished to capture the essence of that in a way? A bad choice by the producers of the box certainly.

[Mikie]

I don’t think Boyd or Linett have posted much here in ages. I hope they do of course.

Alan Boyd posted here two or three days ago.

[Cabinessenceking]

I think the MIC version is fine, really.

+1

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan and Mark never grace this board again with all the negative and borderline insulting comments thrown their way.

Is that a problem?

Should people not share their thoughts in fear that it might scare two adult men, who should be considered fragile creatures ready to quit their business in the face of any negative commentary, from perhaps visiting this webpage? Thou jest.

[Wirestone]

It's called respect. Sheesh.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

It's called respect. Sheesh.

No, it's called opinion.

[Mikie]

Been listening a lot to the live tracks. Unnecessary reverb has been added, especially to things like Wild Honey. That echoey reverb DOES NOT do it justice. I hope to hell that if they ever issue a BB live set (i.e. Carnegie Hall/MSG/Luxembourg/Nassau/Michigan/Hawaii) that they will not add reverb to it. Just take out the excess hiss if you have to and just leave the rest alone.

[Paulos]

I think the MIC version is fine, really.

+1

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Alan and Mark never grace this board again with all the negative and borderline insulting comments thrown their way.

Is that a problem?

Should people not share their thoughts in fear that it might scare two adult men, who should be considered fragile creatures ready to quit their business in the face of any negative commentary, from perhaps visiting this webpage? Thou jest.

People should of course be able to share their thoughts, although it should be done respectfully as Wirestone has pointed out. I'm surprised they weren't scared off after seeing your 'Mono Smile Sessions ruined the Beach Boys legacy' thread.

[HeyJude]

I don’t think Boyd or Linett have posted much here in ages. I hope they do of course.

Alan Boyd posted here two or three days ago.

Yes, I saw his comments regarding “You’re Still a Mystery”, and I hope he comments more. He has been an extremely sporadic poster for many years now. I would be too if I were in his position. I totally grant that. I probably wouldn’t post at all. Maybe a blog or something that doesn’t involve an always potentially sketchy back-and-forth.

But I also don’t think we should refrain from constructively analyzing and opining on one of the biggest BB-related releases in recent times because some of those involved may at some point post or may have been turned off from the board some time ago because of the nature of discussions. I’ve been reading and posting on boards for, yikes, at least 17 or 18 years now, and while I love to see “insiders” post and be a part of online communities, I’m not a fan of what often happens when some fans immediately shift gears and don’t breathe a slightly negative word within miles of the “insider.”

It has happened on this board before. People had a discussion going about Cowsill and how he sounded on “Wild Honey”, then Cowsill posts, and immediately it’s nothing but congratulatory posts about how awesome he sounded on that song. I dig Cowsill, and if I like his vocals I’d love to have the chance to tell him so. But there is often in these situations a bit of an air of “um, no, forget what I said before, everything about you is awesome!”

I haven’t been agreeing much with AGD in a while, but I was glad that he was able to say how awesome this set is while also pointing out something he may not like about it, in this case the mix on “You’ve Lost that Lovin’ Feelin’.”

[Nicko1234]

It's called respect. Sheesh.

Sorry but I think it's been documented that Bruce looks at this board from time to time. Considering some of the stuff that has been written about him on here, I'm not sure that Mr Linett or Mr Boyd have anything to complain about. They do their work in public and therefore must expect positive and negative criticism.

[HeyJude]

It's called respect. Sheesh.

Sorry but I think it's been documented that Bruce looks at this board from time to time. Considering some of the stuff that has been written about him on here, I'm not sure that Mr Linett or Mr Boyd have anything to complain about. They do their work in public and therefore must expect positive and negative criticism.

The thing is, I don’t think Boyd or Linett or anybody in that position should come on here and start debating or “answering” for their work. If they can converse here, and perhaps explain stuff or just comment on anything at any time, that’s great. But I don’t expect them to start debating or justifying their work. But I also don’t think we should refrain from discussing and potentially being critical of something they worked on. That’s the whole point of forums like this.

[Mikie]

The thing is, I don’t think Boyd or Linett or anybody in that position should come on here and start debating or “answering” for their work. If they can converse here, and perhaps explain stuff or just comment on anything at any time, that’s great. But I don’t expect them to start debating or justifying their work. But I also don’t think we should refrain from discussing and potentially being critical of something they worked on. That’s the whole point of forums like this.

Very true. But I'll tell you what. I would love for them to address some of the issues that have been brought up here. And I can pretty much guarantee that they would get a lot of praise and positive feedback compared to the negative issues brought up. I would like them (specifically Mark) to come on here (or his own website) and answer some of the questions and "what for's" being brought up on this board. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think either of them talked about the ins and outs of compiling the Smile Sessions box, so I don't think there's a very good chance they will talk about MIC. Sure wish they would though!

[Sam_BFC]

I’m willing to entertain the idea that Brian sits in and asks for tons of reverb; he certainly adds it to some of his solo stuff too. But some of that solo stuff is engineered by Linett too, so I’m not sure who’s creative decision it is.

Interesting point.

I think that That Lucky Old Sun is perhaps the one anomaly in BBs-related releases engineered by ML where reverb is applied so sparingly to the point of being unnoticeable.

[Wirestone]

I’m willing to entertain the idea that Brian sits in and asks for tons of reverb; he certainly adds it to some of his solo stuff too. But some of that solo stuff is engineered by Linett too, so I’m not sure who’s creative decision it is.

Interesting point.

I think that That Lucky Old Sun is perhaps the one anomaly in BBs-related releases engineered by ML where reverb is applied so sparingly to the point of being unnoticeable.

Because it was co-produced by Scott Bennett, who doesn't stand for that kind of thing.