Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Bicyclerider]

He even criticized Summer's Gone from the latest album as not being uplifting enough and implied it would have been better if he had written the lyrics!

He said something about "too much cumulus for me" - i.e. too cloudy, not "sunny" enough - and implied if he had written it it would have been less gloomy.  Maybe someone with the article can quote the part in question.  Mike didn't want Til I Die on Surf's Up because he thought it was depressing and a downer.  None of this was meant as a "joke" - that's Mike's viewpoint.   He feels Brian needs him to counterbalance the melancholy of Brian's music.  get some "girl- boy" or "fun in the sun"  in there, make it more "upbeat" or "commercial.". I think most of us are glad Til I Die and Summer's Gone made it on to their respective albums.  And that Mike put some relatable lyrics into Good Vibrations?

You're assuming way too much, here. I'll admit maybe I did too saying it was "obviously a joke", but not nearly to the extent you have, here.

It's never been said Mike didn't want "Til I Die" on Surf's Up (as always, his voice is on the song!), just thought he was likely the unnamed band member who called the song a "downer". Never said he disliked it (again, he's on it, basically as the lead on the tag), never said he wouldn't work on the song, just that it was a "downer", which, in a way, it is. It's too good to depress me much, it's nice in terms of being able to relate to from time to time, but still.

You assume he didn't want it on the album, you assume you know exactly the context of the gun-motion-thing, you assume he'd write "fun in the sun" lyrics to "Summer's Gone", a piece which doesn't call for anything of the sort (let's remember this guy co-wrote "The Warmth Of The Sun" with Brian), and then you assume Mike didn't want "Summer's Gone" on the new album.

I don't get this kind of stuff. Mike has done enough bullshit over the years. The Hall Of Fame speech, donating to the PMRC, the total cheeseball appearances on sh*t like Baywatch, thinking Summer In Paradise was releasable, some of the circumstances surrounding the end of the C50 tour, etc. There's really no need to invent and assume more things to throw on the fire, the guy has done enough.

While we're at it, have we all forgotten that Mike's "let me explain to you how I'm kind of an asshole, but not as much of an asshole as you might think" press letter last year directly quoted "Summer's Gone" in a positive light? What does that tell you?

I don't mean to criticize you, sorry if it seems like it, I just don't understand.

I never said Mike didn't want Summer's Gone on the album - he was never in a position to exclude it.  But he thinks it's too gloomy and he thinks he Would have improved the song if he had lyrical input.  That's what is implied by his statements.  I'm glad it's on the album just as it it, "cumulus"and all.

He wasn't a fan of Til I Die, he thought it was a downer.  If he wasn't crazy about it I doubt he would have voted to include it on a Beach Boys album, but again, he had no power to keep anything off.  That was up to Carl.  So it's all just speculation.

Mike was also not in a position to not sing on songs planned for the album.  Remember his position as "lead singer" evaporated with Pet Sounds.  Carl became the predominant voice of the Beach Boys with Wild Honey, and with 20/20 each member began singing their own songs.  Mike wasn't writing songs on his own so was only getting one or two leads per album.  People point to Mike singing Cabinessence as showing he was supportive of Smile - he was supportive of getting as many lead vocal parts as he could, whether he liked the lyrics or not.  It reminds me of some Aretha Franklin songs that Jerry Wexler convinced her to sing but which she didn't really like - until they were released as singles and became huge hits.  You can still sing it great but have doubts about whether it's any good.

[Shady]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

Quite right. But Mike is in the band and he has every right to question lyrics he's being asked to sing. He shouldn't just have to shut up and sing.

Can we all cut the bullshit and acknowledge the real enemy, here? The one who really ensured the collapse of Smile?

Al Jardine. There, I said it.

Al Jardine. The snake in the grass.

[Nicko1234]

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Not really any reason why Mike couldn`t have contributed lyrics to unfinished Smile stuff or changed some of the existing lyrics to get credits though.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Not really any reason why Mike couldn`t have contributed lyrics to unfinished Smile stuff or changed some of the existing lyrics to get credits though.

Because he wasn't asked to and had no control over the issue.....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Not really any reason why Mike couldn`t have contributed lyrics to unfinished Smile stuff or changed some of the existing lyrics to get credits though.

No, but I don't think the perceived pretension had to just be about the lyrics. I could see why Mike might like a song like Wonderful. It's complex, certainly, but not over the top, musically. I might suggest that songs like Cabinessence and Surf's Up and even the ongoing Heroes and Villains vocal experiments were veering into the realm of, not necessarily, weirdness, but self-importance.

[Jim V.]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

that's something fans will really only be caught saying,,,,, It's a bit different in the boiler room

I don't think Van Dyke Parks would agree with that. I don't think Harry Nilsson would agree with that. Not even sure Brian Wilson for a good amount of career would agree with that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

Quite right. But Mike is in the band and he has every right to question lyrics he's being asked to sing. He shouldn't just have to shut up and sing.

Question them? Maybe ask a question about them. But if you're hired to be an actor in a Shakespeare play, is it really your business to question the lines or make the playwright defend what they have written (and here, I am using Van Dyke's own understanding of the exchange).

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

Quite right. But Mike is in the band and he has every right to question lyrics he's being asked to sing. He shouldn't just have to shut up and sing.

Question them? Maybe ask a question about them. But if you're hired to be an actor in a Shakespeare play, is it really your business to question the lines or make the playwright defend what they have written (and here, I am using Van Dyke's own understanding of the exchange).

really?

Or I should ask: If Shakespeare himself was busy writing a play and was asking the lead actor who was also his cousin to recite the lines as he was writing them: you think it would be outlandish for this actor to ask what a line or two meant??

[Cam Mott]

Brian had problems directly with his co-author and with his co-author's lyrics. Yet some don't think that was the significant thing? Some think Mike's one request for an explanation of a lyric he had actually already recorded was the significant thing? Yet I'm denial guy. Sure.

[Cam Mott]

Goof up. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Nicko1234]

Question them? Maybe ask a question about them. But if you're hired to be an actor in a Shakespeare play, is it really your business to question the lines or make the playwright defend what they have written (and here, I am using Van Dyke's own understanding of the exchange).

Bands across the globe have arguments about lyrics and music. Nothing new about that.

If Brian had hired session singers to record the vocals then you may have a point. But Mike had just co-written their biggest hit. Of course he was within his rights to question the lyrics.

[Niko]

Mike says he simply asked what the lyrics meant in a civil manner. Most other sources (more on Brian's side of things) claim it was much more aggressive. I think the difference here is very important. Is anyone sure which it was?

[Dancing Bear]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because he onde said that Mike Love's lyrics were all basically about "sex in the back of a truck" (paraphrasing). How would you feel if you were asked to explain your lyrics to someone whose work in the same field you considered so mediocre?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because he onde said that Mike Love's lyrics were all basically about "sex in the back of a truck" (paraphrasing). How would you feel if you were asked to explain your lyrics to someone whose work in the same field you considered so mediocre?

But they weren't sitting down and writing a song together. Mike was in the band in question and was being asked to sing these lyrics. VDP should have had enough respect for the situation if not Mike himself and he should have explained to his ability....

This issue is beyond tiresome. Bands fight all the time, usually much more aggressively, and with much harsher words, and more often with fists, but somehow The Beach Boys are the only band in history where is matters....

[Dancing Bear]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because he onde said that Mike Love's lyrics were all basically about "sex in the back of a truck" (paraphrasing). How would you feel if you were asked to explain your lyrics to someone whose work in the same field you considered so mediocre?

But they weren't sitting down and writing a song together. Mike was in the band in question and was being asked to sing these lyrics. VDP should have had enough respect for the situation if not Mike himself and he should have explained to his ability....

Yeah, I agree. I was just trying to understand where Van Dyke Parks' head was in 66/67.

This issue is beyond tiresome. Bands fight all the time, usually much more aggressively, and with much harsher words, and more often with fists, but somehow The Beach Boys are the only band in history where is matters....

The Lifetime Project was a complete failure - Who's Next was a bestseller though - yet you never see Townshwnd blaming the rest of the band or management.

[Mike's Beard]

This issue is beyond tiresome. Bands fight all the time, usually much more aggressively, and with much harsher words, and more often with fists, but somehow The Beach Boys are the only band in history where is matters....

Two key factors on why this is the subject that just won't die,
1) The overwhelming hate some 'fans' have for Mike Love,
2) The insane overhyping of the Smile project.

[Cam Mott]

This issue is beyond tiresome. Bands fight all the time, usually much more aggressively, and with much harsher words, and more often with fists, but somehow The Beach Boys are the only band in history where is matters....

Two key factors on why this is the subject that just won't die,
1) The overwhelming hate some 'fans' have for Mike Love,
2) The insane overhyping of the Smile project.

Leaf's misinterpretation of the Anderle/Williams interview didn't help imo.

[clack]

Here's Carl : “A lot was said about Mike not liking the Smile music. His main problem was the lyrics were not relatable. They were so artistic, to him, airy-fairy and too abstract. Personally, I loved it.”

Mike in 1998 : “I didn’t resonate well with what was going on at that time – he was writing these songs under the influence of various substances, and it didn’t make any sense to me!”

And VDF, recounting a 1995 meeting with Mike : “For the first time in 30 years,[Mike Love] was able to ask me directly, once again, ‘What do those lyrics — Over and over the crow flies, uncover the cornfield — mean? And I was able to tell him, once again, ‘I don’t know.’ I have no idea what those words mean. I was perhaps thinking of Van Gogh’s wheat field or an idealized agrarian environment.”

[Bicyclerider]

Disagree completely. Mike's biggest problem seemed to be the bombastic nature of the material and furthermore, as has always been the case, he laments his lack of involvement in the creative process. Smiley Smile mostly gave up the pretentious literary lyrics, the complex and challenging music, and allowed Mike and the boys to play a bigger role in creating the music.

Not really any reason why Mike couldn`t have contributed lyrics to unfinished Smile stuff or changed some of the existing lyrics to get credits though.

Mike did contribute lyrics to unfinished Smile stuff.  He Gives Speeches, to be exact, which he helped turn into She's Goin' Bald.  One of my favorite songs on SMiley.  I would have liked to see what Mike would have done with Worms, or Holidays, or Look.  I think at this time Mike would have done some interesting things.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because art speaks for itself and if you can't understand that then you shouldn't even be in the business of making it.

Quite right. But Mike is in the band and he has every right to question lyrics he's being asked to sing. He shouldn't just have to shut up and sing.

Question them? Maybe ask a question about them. But if you're hired to be an actor in a Shakespeare play, is it really your business to question the lines or make the playwright defend what they have written (and here, I am using Van Dyke's own understanding of the exchange).

really?

Or I should ask: If Shakespeare himself was busy writing a play and was asking the lead actor who was also his cousin to recite the lines as he was writing them: you think it would be outlandish for this actor to ask what a line or two meant??

Well, but like I suggested, that wasn't quite Van Dyke's understanding of the situation. He said he felt he was being made to defend his lyrics. In other words, when he was asked, "What do these lyrics mean?" it was not simply a case of, "I just want to know what I'm singing about" it was "I don't think these words mean anything" (and indeed, Mike's "acid alliteration" remarks reinforce that) and "why should I be singing something that I don't think actually makes any sense." And, yes, I think it would be outlanding for an actor to make remarks like that to any playwright.

[drbeachboy]

Well, if VDP doesn't know what they mean, then why get so upset with someone else when they don't know what it means? To me, VDP was acting like he was so full of himself, that how dare anyone question what I write. Think about it, up to that point in their careers, what they sang about was pretty concrete. No guessing as to what lyrics meant. Though, I wonder how Gary Usher or Roger Christian reacted if asked what "ram induction under the hood" meant?

[ontor pertawst]

I'd imagine they'd be worried about not coming off macho enough to admit they didn't know what ram induction was.

Also, VDP is much shorter and less carburetor-oriented. I can't blame him for just leaving the room, really. Plenty of ego to go around with that crowd! He seems regretful that he wasn't strong enough to fight for it in the Leaf doc and at least admits failing on that front. What an obnoxious subject to be prodded about every time you stick your face out in public tho, huh? At one of those last record store signings the flyer made sure to specify A Q&A ON HIS POSTSMILE WORK. I think the first and last questions were about Smile. Wah wah wah waaaaaah! No wonder they all get so cranky.

[drbeachboy]

I'd imagine they'd be worried about not coming off macho enough to admit they didn't know what ram induction was.

Also, VDP is much shorter and less carburetor-oriented. I can't blame him for just leaving the room, really. Plenty of ego to go around with that crowd! He seems regretful that he wasn't strong enough to fight for it in the Leaf doc and at least admits failing on that front. What an obnoxious subject to be prodded about every time you stick your face out in public tho, huh? At one of those last record store signings the flyer made sure to specify A Q&A ON HIS POSTSMILE WORK. I think the first and last questions were about Smile. Wah wah wah waaaaaah! No wonder they all get so cranky.

If only he gave Mike a straight answer. Actually, I could very well see Mike being sarcastic and acting like a smart-ass. I always came away that VDP came off sarcastic, as well.

Yeah, I agree, to have a whole career upstaged by a few months working on Smile. Very obnoxious.

[Smile4ever]

But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant. What I did address was that Mike's "problems" with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics COULD'VE planted some doubt in Brian Wilson's mind and led to his scrapping SMiLE.

There you go.  On the money.  

Mike has admitted that he didn't like the lyrics.  He confronted Van Dyke with it.  He's never apologized to Van Dyke, Brian, or anybody else for that. Even on that plane ride Mike and Van took from Big Sur to L.A. back around 1980 or whatever it was.

But why should he have to apologize for something he had basically no say in and a venture where he was little more than an employee?

If I mentioned to the president of my company that I didn't like the robo-flushing mechanisms they installed on the toilets, and then months later he dissolves the company: does this mean I'd have to apologize for the next 40 years and counting?

Hahaha! Hilarious illustration.

[Jim V.]

I'm surprised VDP doesn't get me flack for his reaction to Mike's questioning of the Cabinessence lyrics.

Why was he so bothered by Mike wanting an explanation of what he was singing

Because he onde said that Mike Love's lyrics were all basically about "sex in the back of a truck" (paraphrasing). How would you feel if you were asked to explain your lyrics to someone whose work in the same field you considered so mediocre?

But they weren't sitting down and writing a song together. Mike was in the band in question and was being asked to sing these lyrics. VDP should have had enough respect for the situation if not Mike himself and he should have explained to his ability....

Yeah, I agree. I was just trying to understand where Van Dyke Parks' head was in 66/67.

This issue is beyond tiresome. Bands fight all the time, usually much more aggressively, and with much harsher words, and more often with fists, but somehow The Beach Boys are the only band in history where is matters....

The Lifetime Project was a complete failure - Who's Next was a bestseller though - yet you never see Townshwnd blaming the rest of the band or management.

It's Lifehouse, not Lifetime, but anyways actually Townshend did blame manger and producer Kit Lambert's lack of enthusiasm for the project (as Lambert wanted to make a movie of Tommy) and he's also commented on how his bandmates didn't understand his vision. Now in his bandmates defense, Lifehouse is somewhat incomprehensible.