Mike Love: 'There are a lot of fallacies about me'

[leggo of my ego]

The voting members of BRI are:

Brian Wilson
Mike Love
Alan Jardine
the estate of Carl Wilson.

They might as well vote the way they do, yes its profitable and much easier than get sued again and again by Love.

[JohnMill]

With all due respect to Mr. Love, he is *not* the McCartney to Brian's Lennon (nor is he the Lennon to Brian's McCartney, for those of us who feel that McCartney was actually the primary musical force behind the Beatles). In terms of the songwriting, he was more of an Ira Gershwin or Hal David, which is still a great honor. It's too bad he can't see himself that way, and just sit back and relax. His place in history is assured, but it's quite ridiculous for him to expect to be venerated at anywhere near the same level as Brian Wilson. Ira Gershwin, Hal David and Tony Asher never expected equal treatment with their partners, so it's not clear why Mr. Love should, other than perhaps, as arguably the least musically literate member of the Beach Boys (having rarely played an instrument), he actually never fully comprehended just how enormously talented and unique Brian was in his prime, in relation to the greater pop landscape. If he truly believes that his contribution to the Beach Boys artistically was equal to Brian Wilson (as his Lennon McCartney analogy implies), I fear that he's never going to be satisfied with history's critical evaluation of the Beach Boys. I'm not trying to denigrate Mike. I actually feel sorry for him, because, despite all his talk of meditation and being "at peace" with his life, he seemingly can't just be at peace with his partnering role in one of THE great forces of pop music in the 20th century. Now that Mike's songwriting credits have been rightly restored, his name will not disappear from history, and in fact will be better remembered than a list of very talented but already forgotten artists to which I'm sure we all could all contribute. In addition to the important lyricists mentioned above, Mike could also perhaps take a few tips from Roger Daltrey, WHO, as it happens, is much more universally popular within the WHO fanbase, and it can't hurt (in terms of perception) that he seems to be OK with all the focus on Pete Townshend's talents, despite his own leading man role.

Arguable points made here although it should be noted that Mike Love has more often than not gone out of his way to hand his cousin praise as a great songwriter and producer most recently in the piece that this thread is based on.  But you are correct in that Mike Love over the years has painted himself into a lot of different corners from a PR standpoint and has been the subject of a lot of negative press by people trying to vilify him while at the same time exulting the legacy of Brian Wilson.  Most of this has to do with the fact that for many years many fans and writers alike held a large grudge against Love for what they perceived to be the stomping of "SMiLE".  However, one thing that often seems to get lost in all the telling and retelling of the tales regarding that ill-fated album is that Love never had an issue with Brian Wilson's contributions to the project but the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks and Wilson's entourage of hangers on that Love believed to be encouraging his cousin's intake of drugs.  However history has told and has been repeated that Mike Love demanded his cousin "not f**k with the formula", told his cousin that he hated the SMiLE recordings and so on and so forth.  Most (if not all of) of this is often thrown at the feet of Love without any hard facts to back up any of it.

Mike Love really is in a no win situation if he is trying to win over hardcore Beach Boys fans.  While he certainly has pockets of devotion among the diehards, they are in the vast minority.  While many of us may not be blind Brian Wilson devotees, Mike Love has done enough damage (and has had enough damage done to him) from a PR standpoint where he isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt from most of the diehards as you can see by this thread.  Whether Mike Love cares what the diehards think about him or not it would be foolish in my opinion to think that he isn't at least aware he isn't going to be winning any popularity contests anytime soon with the diehards especially when he's "running against Brian Wilson".  I give Mike Love credit for being his own man and doing what he wants to do with his life and his music but anything beyond that unfortunately from my standpoint seems to be an uphill battle for the man.  Some of that is of his own creation while some of the resistance he meets quite frankly he doesn't deserve one bit.  

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

[JohnMill]

AGD, Cam, Micha, Real Beach Boy etc. thank you for confirming some of us do have perspective to take a step back. The music I devote my career and free time to, biographical proven facts are cool too. Beyond that I have more things to worry about than ill thought out press releases from last fall.

No ill will really, but people who do decide to do this for a living, who are historians who value truth, don't like to work weeks for facts and then get some internet "expert" hiding under a fake name try to shout you down. It's worse when the ignorance of their words proving they didn't take the time to really ask anyone who would know beyond the world of fandom what the truth really is.

Debate is great, but answers and facts have been established on the reunion. A reunion which is over and stands the most respectable thing the group has done since not only the box set tour in 1993, but maybe Beacago in 1975. Twisted or false info continues to be spouted on this and other things and that's why the tone of smileysmile has changed.

If you love Brian Wilson and hate the Beach Boys on a real personal deep level, there are better places for you online. No ill will again, but the rest of us all would be happier if we could back to a board where facts and music, not fanboy wishes-or the evil of Mike Love, are discussed. Please forgive us non bitter or angry followers for speaking up and making the board hostile, how dare we? Seriously though, I used to love it here and still do at times. There's just been this nasty change in the air since the reunion was announced. It was great to get an influx of new interest, it sucked gaining all the disrespect and Leafian thinking.

Devoting that much love or investing that much emotion into people whom you have never even met is probably unwise.  No disrespect intended at all but people are the same as they are always going to be, in every walk of life, in every fanbase and on every internet postie board.  I don't think the tone of this website has changed at all period.  It's always been a good place to get information and to gather knowledge but on the other hand it's always been an intense forum where fools aren't suffered easily and people shout each other down.  When it gets out of hand, bannings occur and topics are locked.  Judging from what I've seen on this forum, this particular thread is pretty tame as at least we are debating the issue at hand.  

That being said as I mentioned to you yesterday there are many of us who still feel there is a great deal of unfinished business surrounding the C50 which is reason one why it still remains a hot topic to this day.  Reason two is because the members of the group refuse to let it die especially Wilson/Jardine who have continually poked Mike Love in the ribs with every press release they have issued since the reunion ended.  I'm not trying to insinuate that they personally dislike the guy but it would be foolish to ignore that they at least still have their feelings bruised, otherwise why keep bringing his name up?  That being said until The Beach Boys stop talking about the issues surrounding the end of the C50, to me it's more than fair for the rest of us to continue to discuss and debate it which is essentially what a discussion forum is about.

In my opinion why you are waxing poetic over is something akin to a "Beach Boys Information Site" and while there is certainly that aspect to this forum it is not necessarily what this forum has ever been about.  In fact one of the things that has always rankled me is how many times newbies come on to this site, ask a simple question about the band and are shouted down by the regulars for some trivial reason.  So there really isn't perfection to be found either way you look at it.  That's life.

[leggo of my ego]

Please forgive us non bitter or angry followers for speaking up and making the board hostile, how dare we?

Ok you're forgiven but will you quit now and let the Love bashers alone?  

There's just been this nasty change in the air since the reunion was announced. It was great to get an influx of new interest, it sucked gaining all the disrespect and Leafian thinking.

Oh cool you coined a new word! Leafian! lol.

[MBE]

With all due respect to Mr. Love, he is *not* the McCartney to Brian's Lennon (nor is he the Lennon to Brian's McCartney, for those of us who feel that McCartney was actually the primary musical force behind the Beatles). In terms of the songwriting, he was more of an Ira Gershwin or Hal David, which is still a great honor. It's too bad he can't see himself that way, and just sit back and relax. His place in history is assured, but it's quite ridiculous for him to expect to be venerated at anywhere near the same level as Brian Wilson. Ira Gershwin, Hal David and Tony Asher never expected equal treatment with their partners, so it's not clear why Mr. Love should, other than perhaps, as arguably the least musically literate member of the Beach Boys (having rarely played an instrument), he actually never fully comprehended just how enormously talented and unique Brian was in his prime, in relation to the greater pop landscape. If he truly believes that his contribution to the Beach Boys artistically was equal to Brian Wilson (as his Lennon McCartney analogy implies), I fear that he's never going to be satisfied with history's critical evaluation of the Beach Boys. I'm not trying to denigrate Mike. I actually feel sorry for him, because, despite all his talk of meditation and being "at peace" with his life, he seemingly can't just be at peace with his partnering role in one of THE great forces of pop music in the 20th century. Now that Mike's songwriting credits have been rightly restored, his name will not disappear from history, and in fact will be better remembered than a list of very talented but already forgotten artists to which I'm sure we all could all contribute. In addition to the important lyricists mentioned above, Mike could also perhaps take a few tips from Roger Daltrey, WHO, as it happens, is much more universally popular within the WHO fanbase, and it can't hurt (in terms of perception) that he seems to be OK with all the focus on Pete Townshend's talents, despite his own leading man role.

Arguable points made here although it should be noted that Mike Love has more often than not gone out of his way to hand his cousin praise as a great songwriter and producer most recently in the piece that this thread is based on.  But you are correct in that Mike Love over the years has painted himself into a lot of different corners from a PR standpoint and has been the subject of a lot of negative press by people trying to vilify him while at the same time exulting the legacy of Brian Wilson.  Most of this has to do with the fact that for many years many fans and writers alike held a large grudge against Love for what they perceived to be the stomping of "SMiLE".  However, one thing that often seems to get lost in all the telling and retelling of the tales regarding that ill-fated album is that Love never had an issue with Brian Wilson's contributions to the project but the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks and Wilson's entourage of hangers on that Love believed to be encouraging his cousin's intake of drugs.  However history has told and has been repeated that Mike Love demanded his cousin "not f**k with the formula", told his cousin that he hated the SMiLE recordings and so on and so forth.  Most (if not all of) of this is often thrown at the feet of Love without any hard facts to back up any of it.

Mike Love really is in a no win situation if he is trying to win over hardcore Beach Boys fans.  While he certainly has pockets of devotion among the diehards, they are in the vast minority.  While many of us may not be blind Brian Wilson devotees, Mike Love has done enough damage (and has had enough damage done to him) from a PR standpoint where he isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt from most of the diehards as you can see by this thread.  Whether Mike Love cares what the diehards think about him or not it would be foolish in my opinion to think that he isn't at least aware he isn't going to be winning any popularity contests anytime soon with the diehards especially when he's "running against Brian Wilson".  I give Mike Love credit for being his own man and doing what he wants to do with his life and his music but anything beyond that unfortunately from my standpoint seems to be an uphill battle for the man.  Some of that is of his own creation while some of the resistance he meets quite frankly he doesn't deserve one bit.  

Great post.

[filledeplage]

With all due respect to Mr. Love, he is *not* the McCartney to Brian's Lennon (nor is he the Lennon to Brian's McCartney, for those of us who feel that McCartney was actually the primary musical force behind the Beatles). In terms of the songwriting, he was more of an Ira Gershwin or Hal David, which is still a great honor. It's too bad he can't see himself that way, and just sit back and relax. His place in history is assured, but it's quite ridiculous for him to expect to be venerated at anywhere near the same level as Brian Wilson. Ira Gershwin, Hal David and Tony Asher never expected equal treatment with their partners, so it's not clear why Mr. Love should, other than perhaps, as arguably the least musically literate member of the Beach Boys (having rarely played an instrument), he actually never fully comprehended just how enormously talented and unique Brian was in his prime, in relation to the greater pop landscape. If he truly believes that his contribution to the Beach Boys artistically was equal to Brian Wilson (as his Lennon McCartney analogy implies), I fear that he's never going to be satisfied with history's critical evaluation of the Beach Boys. I'm not trying to denigrate Mike. I actually feel sorry for him, because, despite all his talk of meditation and being "at peace" with his life, he seemingly can't just be at peace with his partnering role in one of THE great forces of pop music in the 20th century. Now that Mike's songwriting credits have been rightly restored, his name will not disappear from history, and in fact will be better remembered than a list of very talented but already forgotten artists to which I'm sure we all could all contribute. In addition to the important lyricists mentioned above, Mike could also perhaps take a few tips from Roger Daltrey, WHO, as it happens, is much more universally popular within the WHO fanbase, and it can't hurt (in terms of perception) that he seems to be OK with all the focus on Pete Townshend's talents, despite his own leading man role.

Arguable points made here although it should be noted that Mike Love has more often than not gone out of his way to hand his cousin praise as a great songwriter and producer most recently in the piece that this thread is based on.  But you are correct in that Mike Love over the years has painted himself into a lot of different corners from a PR standpoint and has been the subject of a lot of negative press by people trying to vilify him while at the same time exulting the legacy of Brian Wilson.  Most of this has to do with the fact that for many years many fans and writers alike held a large grudge against Love for what they perceived to be the stomping of "SMiLE".  However, one thing that often seems to get lost in all the telling and retelling of the tales regarding that ill-fated album is that Love never had an issue with Brian Wilson's contributions to the project but the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks and Wilson's entourage of hangers on that Love believed to be encouraging his cousin's intake of drugs.  However history has told and has been repeated that Mike Love demanded his cousin "not f**k with the formula", told his cousin that he hated the SMiLE recordings and so on and so forth.  Most (if not all of) of this is often thrown at the feet of Love without any hard facts to back up any of it.

Mike Love really is in a no win situation if he is trying to win over hardcore Beach Boys fans.  While he certainly has pockets of devotion among the diehards, they are in the vast minority.  While many of us may not be blind Brian Wilson devotees, Mike Love has done enough damage (and has enough damage done to him) from a PR standpoint where he isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt from most of the diehards as you can see by this thread.  Whether Mike Love cares what the diehards think about him or not it would be foolish in my opinion to think that he isn't at least aware he isn't going to be winning any popularity contests anytime soon with the diehards especially when he's "running against Brian Wilson".  I give Mike Love credit for being his own man and doing what he wants to do with his life and his music but anything beyond that unfortunately from my standpoint seems to be an uphill battle for the man.  Some of that is of his own creation while some of the resistance he meets quite frankly he doesn't deserve one bit.  

That whole "formula" thing is ringing more hollow by the minute to me.  Over time, it seems to be record-label driven, (especially with the "Best of" releases temporally related to Pet Sounds.) Record companies care more about money than artists' visions and satisfaction.  

The "formula" hyperbole flies in the face of the Mike's work on Cal Saga/Don't Go Near the Water/All I Wanna Do, etc. - which I think is inconsistent with that continual tired harangue. This is not a schoolyard brawl.  Or gang war.  The discussion is important to a lot of folks who were fans for decades, but in a void, in the absences of those who were/are like minded.

Thanks for the clarity about the "entities" as between C50 (Wilson-Love-Thomas) and BRI members enumerated.  This debate requires objectivity, perspective, and an open mind.  Please respect each other's point of view. This forum has some outstanding contributors, who shouldn't be alienated by all the "snark factor."

A round of frosty Smiley's all around.  

My mother used to say as she raised her Justerini & Brooks, "It's four o'clock somewhere!"  

[drbeachboy]

It has nothing to do with being snarky. Some people cannot accept fact, even if it smacks them squarely in face. It is very annoying to continually read posts where the poster thinks his opinion outweighs any truth of facts.

[MBE]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

Actually I like what you wrote here a lot. As far as the first sentence though I should reply.

Fair enough, Mike Love is a public figure who never has tried to be PC, or even all that tactful. When money is the thing, he says so. The new live book Ian and Jon did really opened up my eyes how honest the guy has been over the years to the press. Way too honest really. There isn't any hidden agenda with Mike, an agenda yes but not hidden.

We would all like to think we would handle fame differently than the Beach Boys, but we haven't walked in their shoes. Only Al seems to have not had real trouble with the lifestyle of being a rock and roll musician, at least at one time or another. Bring family into it and it's a whole other thing again.  My only reservation lies in when something just isn't true. For example saying that Mike did something deliberately sneaky, brutal, and scarring to the others last year, when I and the public knew in June of his plans, just seems beyond beating a dead horse.

[JohnMill]

It has nothing to do with being snarky. Some people cannot accept fact, even if it smacks them squarely in face. It is very annoying to continually read posts where the poster thinks his opinion outweighs any truth of facts.

But whose facts or whose truth?  More times that not much of what is debated on this forum at least has some element of subjectivity to it where the issue not only isn't black and white but can be looked at from several different angles.  

[Jason]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

Absolutely spot-on, as you say over there.

[MBE]

Please forgive us non bitter or angry followers for speaking up and making the board hostile, how dare we?

Ok you're forgiven but will you quit now and let the Love bashers alone?  
I will try my best and thank you!

There's just been this nasty change in the air since the reunion was announced. It was great to get an influx of new interest, it sucked gaining all the disrespect and Leafian thinking.

Oh cool you coined a new word! Leafian! lol. I   Shoot he should be flattered about that! Flows off the tongue, works well as a verb, gets to the point. Hell I will even give him a word to describe my views..."Ederonion" patent pending

[JohnMill]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

Actually I like what you wrote here a lot. As far as the first sentence though I should reply.

Fair enough, Mike Love is a public figure who never has tried to be PC, or even all that tactful. When money is the thing, he says so. The new live book Ian and Jon did really opened up my eyes how honest the guy has been over the years to the press. Way too honest really. There isn't any hidden agenda with Mike, an agenda yes but not hidden.

We would all like to think we would handle fame differently than the Beach Boys, but we haven't walked in their shoes. Only Al seems to have not had real trouble with the lifestyle of being a rock and roll musician, at least at one time or another. Bring family into it and it's a whole other thing again.  My only reservation lies in when something just isn't true. For example saying that Mike did something deliberately sneaky, brutal, and scarring to the others last year, when I and the public knew in June of his plans, just seems beyond beating a dead horse.

The problem is though when Brian Wilson and company make comments regarding being taken by surprise by the events that transpired at the end of the C50, it does make the situation a little less clear than you put forth.  Basically if we are to take Brian Wilson (or his representatives) at their word "the fact" that the C50 had a definite start and end time was either not communicated to them (unlikely) was ignored by them in hopes that Love would change his mind and once again extend C50 activities into the fall and beyond (possible) or they are just trying to spin the story their way in an effort to get that story out to public interpreted as they themselves see it.  

[drbeachboy]

It has nothing to do with being snarky. Some people cannot accept fact, even if it smacks them squarely in face. It is very annoying to continually read posts where the poster thinks his opinion outweighs any truth of facts.

But whose facts or whose truth?  More times that not much of what is debated on this forum at least has some element of subjectivity to it where the issue not only isn't black and white but can be looked at from several different angles.  

Come on John, who do you think? There are quite a few here who I have named over and over again who are historians here. Some of them have posted in here today. These guys do their homework. If and when they say something incorrect, they own up to it. Because of all of those reasons I trust what they tell us.

[filledeplage]

It has nothing to do with being snarky. Some people cannot accept fact, even if it smacks them squarely in face. It is very annoying to continually read posts where the poster thinks his opinion outweighs any truth of facts.

The facts and "history" have smacked everyone.  It is the "spin," that is one-sided, notwithstanding any facts and circumstances.  And, it is mean-spirited in my view. And, needless.

[drbeachboy]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

Actually I like what you wrote here a lot. As far as the first sentence though I should reply.

Fair enough, Mike Love is a public figure who never has tried to be PC, or even all that tactful. When money is the thing, he says so. The new live book Ian and Jon did really opened up my eyes how honest the guy has been over the years to the press. Way too honest really. There isn't any hidden agenda with Mike, an agenda yes but not hidden.

We would all like to think we would handle fame differently than the Beach Boys, but we haven't walked in their shoes. Only Al seems to have not had real trouble with the lifestyle of being a rock and roll musician, at least at one time or another. Bring family into it and it's a whole other thing again.  My only reservation lies in when something just isn't true. For example saying that Mike did something deliberately sneaky, brutal, and scarring to the others last year, when I and the public knew in June of his plans, just seems beyond beating a dead horse.

The problem is though when Brian Wilson and company make comments regarding being taken by surprise by the events that transpired at the end of the C50, it does make the situation a little less clear than you put forth.  Basically if we are to take Brian Wilson (or his representatives) at their word "the fact" that the C50 had a definite start and end time was either not communicated to them (unlikely) was ignored by them in hopes that Love would change his mind and once again extend C50 activities into the fall and beyond (possible) or they are just trying to spin the story their way in an effort to get that story out to public interpreted as they themselves see it.  

That is exactly what they are doing. Every side puts their own spin on things. Time usually proves what is the truth or total bullshit.

[JohnMill]

It has nothing to do with being snarky. Some people cannot accept fact, even if it smacks them squarely in face. It is very annoying to continually read posts where the poster thinks his opinion outweighs any truth of facts.

But whose facts or whose truth?  More times that not much of what is debated on this forum at least has some element of subjectivity to it where the issue not only isn't black and white but can be looked at from several different angles.  

Come on John, who do you think? There are quite a few here who I have named over and over again who are historians here. Some of them have posted in here today. These guys do their homework. If and when they say something incorrect, they own up to it. Because of all of those reasons I trust what they tell us.

Which is your prerogative.  I'm not trying to provoke an argument just explaining that what is usually debated almost always has an element of subjectivity to it.  That goes to all walks of life, hell why do you think lawyers make so much money?

[Wirestone]

Jon Stebbins, who is as respected a historian as anyone here, posted several times that Mike ended the reunion. His posted about the shows and albums and deals that Mike left on the table. He cited friction between Brian and Mike's wives as one of the principal causes, although I'm sure there are others. It was clearly not as simple as a pre-existing end date. That was Mike's escape hatch, and he took it. Folks who, in the last few weeks, have constantly talked about the history and objective facts of this case have ignored Jon's posts on this subject, which were frank and evenhanded as they come.

As for Mike Eder's post earlier ... I really think it's out of line to try to ask people who disagree with you to leave the board.

Anyway, here's chapter and verse, from Mr. Stebbins, back in March:

The whole reason Mike left 30 additional C50 date offers on the table and walked away was he got tired of compromise and not being totally in charge. For the first time in decades he was not THE MAN on the Beach Boys tour. He had to defer to Brian's camp one too many times and he tired of it. His out was that the orig. C50 plan was a relatively modest 50 dates and one album, which he went above and beyond. And although the public, the promoters, and Brian, Al and David wanted to continue because the whole thing had reached a level of popularity and success that was far beyond the orig. projection...and the demand was only growing...Mike wanted his independence, and his lean and profitable operation back... which includes playing corporate shows etc...and which included a bunch of guys that were not employed by the C50 tour including his son.

personally I don't think its kissing ass...I called it compromise...and deference...and Mike does not like either at this stage of his life.

The C50 tour/album etc... is comparatively modest compared to what was left on the table. That's what I meant by modest.

Capitol Records gave Mike no significant guaranteed money for C50...again the guaranteed  $$$ came from Joe Thomas's business model, backers and organization.

Mike definitely burned out on not being in charge and calling all the shots...you are right about that.

At least 30 more C50 shows, another studio album, a bunch more high profile TV appearances etc... But I would not term it as Mike "turning them down"...I would say the prospect of these things were left on the table because they were never negotiated beyond the offer stage due to Mike's preference to return to his normal business model.

the bittersweet part is that it might have gone on longer. But in reality we got more than anyone ever thought possible. The whole theory about whether Mike wanted to do business with Joe Thomas or if Capitol was whatever...I'm not privy to any details. I can guarantee this...if Melinda and Jacqueline were in sync and wanting the same thing they would all be working together still. They were the glue that kept things together while it lasted.

After reading that, and Mike's comments on the subject, and Brian and Al's, I think it's possible to draw conclusions about the personalities and motives involved. Many people here have done that. And they're not being haters -- on either side, really. It's just another chapter in a history of a bunch of guys who love each other but can't stand each other at the same time.

[MBE]

Hi John and thanks for reading my post. I should further explain as I suppose I didn't get my feelings across too clear.

As far as devoting time and emotion to people on a message board, I really do not let bad reactions or feelings  bother me so much like I had. I feel kind of removed and distanced from the whole thing if anything. This thread is OK, but when a pretty straightforward interview creates this much drama, one does have to comment is some bewilderment. The basic things on a board are always going to be the same, and it is like anywhere else. Put in my actual non online perspective, any message board is only going to mean so much. Yet I felt at one time here that there was a real open mindedness to different thoughts. Maybe a community feel, a lack of venom. I know myself I went years here feeling very relaxed and like we could agree to disagree.

I don't want "perfection", nor do I dislike new posters with basic questions. I want there to be new fans, new people to talk to. I am only talking about those who get told the world is round, but keep saying it's flat. Talk all you like about 2012, but again there are some unassailable truths (facts, events etc.) that are being willfully ignored. As we have been saying the same thing since the press releases came, maybe myself, AGD and others actually took the time to ask the right questions to the right people?  
People want publicity, spin, press, you name it. A few press agents thought going public would shame Mike into changing his mind, maybe civilized discussion would have been the best tactic. Hurt or not that Mike didn't want to go on with the tour,  the Love camp isn't the one being political here. They have been in the past, and hey Mike HAS done some things I openly said were wrong. I judge who I side with on a case by case basis. Again I simply find it amazing why tour dates known about months in advance would baffle a fan let alone insult a band mate.

One last thing, I honestly am not trying to be aggressive with anyone. I just get bored at reading the same old bickering when there are so many more interesting Beach Boys, music related, or real life things to discuss.

[drbeachboy]

Jon Stebbins, who is as respected a historian as anyone here, posted several times that Mike ended the reunion. His posted about the shows and albums and deals that Mike left on the table. He cited friction between Brian and Mike's wives as one of the principal causes, although I'm sure there are others. It was clearly not as simple as a pre-existing end date. That was Mike's escape hatch, and he took it. Folks who, in the last few weeks, have constantly talked about the history and objective facts of this case have ignored Jon's posts on this subject, which were frank and evenhanded as they come.

As for Mike Eder's post earlier ... I really think it's out of line to try to ask people who disagree with you to leave the board.

Anyway, here's chapter and verse, from Mr. Stebbins, back in March:

The whole reason Mike left 30 additional C50 date offers on the table and walked away was he got tired of compromise and not being totally in charge. For the first time in decades he was not THE MAN on the Beach Boys tour. He had to defer to Brian's camp one too many times and he tired of it. His out was that the orig. C50 plan was a relatively modest 50 dates and one album, which he went above and beyond. And although the public, the promoters, and Brian, Al and David wanted to continue because the whole thing had reached a level of popularity and success that was far beyond the orig. projection...and the demand was only growing...Mike wanted his independence, and his lean and profitable operation back... which includes playing corporate shows etc...and which included a bunch of guys that were not employed by the C50 tour including his son.

personally I don't think its kissing ass...I called it compromise...and deference...and Mike does not like either at this stage of his life.

The C50 tour/album etc... is comparatively modest compared to what was left on the table. That's what I meant by modest.

Capitol Records gave Mike no significant guaranteed money for C50...again the guaranteed  $$$ came from Joe Thomas's business model, backers and organization.

Mike definitely burned out on not being in charge and calling all the shots...you are right about that.

At least 30 more C50 shows, another studio album, a bunch more high profile TV appearances etc... But I would not term it as Mike "turning them down"...I would say the prospect of these things were left on the table because they were never negotiated beyond the offer stage due to Mike's preference to return to his normal business model.

the bittersweet part is that it might have gone on longer. But in reality we got more than anyone ever thought possible. The whole theory about whether Mike wanted to do business with Joe Thomas or if Capitol was whatever...I'm not privy to any details. I can guarantee this...if Melinda and Jacqueline were in sync and wanting the same thing they would all be working together still. They were the glue that kept things together while it lasted.

After reading that, and Mike's comments on the subject, and Brian and Al's, I think it's possible to draw conclusions about the personalities and motives involved. Many people here have done that. And they're not being haters -- on either side, really. It's just another chapter in a history of a bunch of guys who love each other but can't stand each other at the same time.

You use Jon's post, but nowhere do I read it was between wives. It sounds like management only to me. If Jon did indeed say wives, then I wish you quoted that piece, as well. My understanding was that wives got along for the most part. I understand there has been plenty of spin from all sides, but if what Mike says has any truth in it, he always believed the reunion was finite, not infinite. After 14 years of doing things his own way, the demands of Brian, Al & David, especially Brian's and his management, was just too much to ever run smoothly.

[Cam Mott]

Jon just confirms my opinion that that they all are either guilty or blameless, not this one this and that one that. Again, the reunion happened and with overtime. If they could not agree further they all bear responsibility.  We are just not hearing so much about the other sides of the responsible so far.

[Mark Dillon]

Facts and figures are great, but a lot of people are questioning Mike's motives and moral code. All subjective. Personally, I recognize all the positive things he did for the Beach Boys, whilst personally not finding him a particularly endearing individual. And as I've said many times, and as ML himself said in the interview, it doesn't bother him what people think of him, and that......is the thing I like about him most.

Actually I like what you wrote here a lot. As far as the first sentence though I should reply.

Fair enough, Mike Love is a public figure who never has tried to be PC, or even all that tactful. When money is the thing, he says so. The new live book Ian and Jon did really opened up my eyes how honest the guy has been over the years to the press. Way too honest really. There isn't any hidden agenda with Mike, an agenda yes but not hidden.

We would all like to think we would handle fame differently than the Beach Boys, but we haven't walked in their shoes. Only Al seems to have not had real trouble with the lifestyle of being a rock and roll musician, at least at one time or another. Bring family into it and it's a whole other thing again.  My only reservation lies in when something just isn't true. For example saying that Mike did something deliberately sneaky, brutal, and scarring to the others last year, when I and the public knew in June of his plans, just seems beyond beating a dead horse.

The problem is though when Brian Wilson and company make comments regarding being taken by surprise by the events that transpired at the end of the C50, it does make the situation a little less clear than you put forth.  Basically if we are to take Brian Wilson (or his representatives) at their word "the fact" that the C50 had a definite start and end time was either not communicated to them (unlikely) was ignored by them in hopes that Love would change his mind and once again extend C50 activities into the fall and beyond (possible) or they are just trying to spin the story their way in an effort to get that story out to public interpreted as they themselves see it.  

It was no surprise to anyone that the C50 tour would be a finite commitment. In an interview conducted last June for the Toronto Star with all five guys--interviewed separately--Bruce told me to mark his words that the reunion would be "a one-time event. You’re not going to see this next year. I’m busy next year doing my thing with Mike.”  http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2012/06/15/the_beach_boys_at_50.html. Which is not to say that 3/5 of the participants didn't want to go on.

[MBE]

Wirestone, I am cool we agree on next to nothing Beach Boys-really. But I am tired of you taking bits and pieces of my posts and twisting them. Do you really think I don't want debate? My comments today show I want no such thing as people who I don't agree with to leave the board. Do you actually read my stuff? Does anyone else here think I meant it anything like that!  

Brian Wilson has an unusually loving fan base on a personal level. He engenders much sympathy. Cool-we all have had problems to overcome, he is as good a role model there is for all who have felt overwhelmed by life or different from others (who make up just about everyone) as any. Musically he is even a better person to look up to. Still I find some of the devotion worrisome. I don't like extremes in anything. It can get so that Brian is this deity fighting against this demon Mike. When I come across that narrow of a view I have to ask if a "hater" really belongs on a board (be it fan or research based) devoted to the whole group. I don't want to ban them, just ask them to think again about what they are here for and what feelings they are trying to engender.

Oh and please don't come back quoting me. If I wasn't clear on what I meant before to you or anyone else, I sure clear it up here.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

We would all like to think we would handle fame differently than the Beach Boys, but we haven't walked in their shoes. Only Al seems to have not had real trouble with the lifestyle of being a rock and roll musician, at least at one time or another. Bring family into it and it's a whole other thing again.  My only reservation lies in when something just isn't true. For example saying that Mike did something deliberately sneaky, brutal, and scarring to the others last year, when I and the public knew in June of his plans, just seems beyond beating a dead horse.

And interestingly, Al is the only one (not counting Dave) who isn't in the family. I think the family thing is absolutely integral to understanding a lot of Mike's actions over the years. If any of my family rows had been played out in public over the years, I dread to think how I'd have come across. I regress to all sorts of childish behavior during a row with my siblings.

[SMiLE Brian]

I can't believe we are fighting over the fact that the reunion ended when it could have gone on with more shows, albums, and good PR. Who honestly wants two BBs instead of five touring? The C50 was a great experience, going back to M&B just doesn't cut it for me.