"you'll never hear surf music again"

[Magic Transistor Radio]

The words are obviously from Hendrix. I know the Beach Boys ceased to be hip (common opinion, not mine) by sometime in 1967. I wasn't around since I am only 35. For those who were there, were the Beach Boys the poster child for everything unhip? Or were they just another unhip band? I assume that the Four Seasons and Jan and Dean had the same image problems as the Beach Boys? What about the image of Elvis, Berry, etc in the late 60s from the hippy croud?  This also brings to mind this interview between Zappa and Nesmith

http://youtu.be/y_DevsLV5Y8

I find this to be a humorous interview. At the 1 min mark they mention the Beach Boys. The phrase 'come on guys lets go kind of thing'...'sounds like the Beach Boys' made me wonder, were they making fun of themselves by bringing  up the Beach Boys? Did that phrase mean something unique at that time, in that context? The album 'Were only in it for the Money' has some surf songs and doo wop style in it. Do you think they were making fun of the Beach Boys type music? For that matter, the Beatles with the Sgt Pepper like photo?

Any other examples you can think of that use Beach Boys style or image to make fun of the past or them specifically through interviews or music can be mentioned here. Especially in the late 60s.

Also, I want to point out that I am American, so perhaps it wasn't the same in the UK or other countries. Although, didn't I read that even in Britain, they were considered uncool by many for the matching white suits in 68 or 69?

[bgas]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

[I. Spaceman]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

Naw. I saw the Summer Dreams film. Hendrix said "Surf music is dead!" on stage at Monterey, which was shown on TV while Brian was lying in bed listening to Sgt. Pepper on headphones.

[DonnyL]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

Naw. I saw the Summer Dreams film. Hendrix said "Surf music is dead!" on stage at Monterey, which was shown on TV while Brian was lying in bed listening to Sgt. Pepper on headphones.

yeh, that was that one time the whole group was sitting around watching Monterey Pop on TV.

[DonnyL]

The words are obviously from Hendrix. I know the Beach Boys ceased to be hip (common opinion, not mine) by sometime in 1967. I wasn't around since I am only 35. For those who were there, were the Beach Boys the poster child for everything unhip? Or were they just another unhip band? I assume that the Four Seasons and Jan and Dean had the same image problems as the Beach Boys? What about the image of Elvis, Berry, etc in the late 60s from the hippy croud?  This also brings to mind this interview between Zappa and Nesmith

http://youtu.be/y_DevsLV5Y8

I find this to be a humorous interview. At the 1 min mark they mention the Beach Boys. The phrase 'come on guys lets go kind of thing'...'sounds like the Beach Boys' made me wonder, were they making fun of themselves by bringing  up the Beach Boys? Did that phrase mean something unique at that time, in that context? The album 'Were only in it for the Money' has some surf songs and doo wop style in it. Do you think they were making fun of the Beach Boys type music? For that matter, the Beatles with the Sgt Pepper like photo?

Any other examples you can think of that use Beach Boys style or image to make fun of the past or them specifically through interviews or music can be mentioned here. Especially in the late 60s.

Also, I want to point out that I am American, so perhaps it wasn't the same in the UK or other countries. Although, didn't I read that even in Britain, they were considered uncool by many for the matching white suits in 68 or 69?

yeh, they were considered 'square' by a lot of people. but they had their hip fans. and they were too weird for the teenybopper crowd post-GV. kind of lost for awhile in terms of public image. but that was the best time for their music, so maybe it was for the best. these days, i'm sure more hip people are into the Beach Boys than Hendrix, who is more in the vein of 'dad rock' or whatever they call it.

[Mike's Beard]

The album 'Were only in it for the Money' has some surf songs and doo wop style in it. Do you think they were making fun of the Beach Boys type music? For that matter, the Beatles with the Sgt Pepper like photo?

Frank was a big fan of surf and doo wop music. The whole In It For The Money album was a piss take on the hippie generation whom Frank despised.

[AndrewHickey]

I find this to be a humorous interview. At the 1 min mark they mention the Beach Boys. The phrase 'come on guys lets go kind of thing'...'sounds like the Beach Boys' made me wonder, were they making fun of themselves by bringing  up the Beach Boys? Did that phrase mean something unique at that time, in that context? The album 'Were only in it for the Money' has some surf songs and doo wop style in it. Do you think they were making fun of the Beach Boys type music? For that matter, the Beatles with the Sgt Pepper like photo?

Both Zappa and the Monkees would make fun of anything. That said, the only Zappa track that actually makes fun of the Beach Boys' music was Let Me Take You To The Beach, from the mid-70s, a very different time. Zappa actually said that Little Deuce Coupe was "the most exciting piece of 'white person' music" he'd ever heard, because of one particular unexpected chord change.

But as to the surf sounds and doo-wop -- Zappa got his start working with Paul Buff (the producer of tracks like Wipe Out and Pipeline) at PAL/Studio Z in the early 60s, and much of his early stuff was generic surf instrumentals like Grunion Run, and that's the music the Mothers originally played. The original Mothers' rhythm guitarist, Elliot Ingber, was actually on Moon Dawg (which the Beach Boys covered early on, and which had Bruce Johnston on keyboards). He no doubt thought that music was cheesy, but for Zappa that wasn't necessarily the same as bad.

As for doo-wop -- Zappa was a doo-wop obsessive. Actually both Zappa and the Beach Boys (at least Carl, and I think Mike) used to listen to Johnny Otis' R&B radio show in the 50s, and picked up a lot of the same influences from that.

Zappa slathered everything he did in layers of irony, but any similarities in his work to the Beach Boys' music are not because he's parodying it, but because he was closer to them in terms of influences than many people would think.

[SufferingFools]

I find this to be a humorous interview. At the 1 min mark they mention the Beach Boys. The phrase 'come on guys lets go kind of thing'...'sounds like the Beach Boys' made me wonder, were they making fun of themselves by bringing  up the Beach Boys? Did that phrase mean something unique at that time, in that context? The album 'Were only in it for the Money' has some surf songs and doo wop style in it. Do you think they were making fun of the Beach Boys type music? For that matter, the Beatles with the Sgt Pepper like photo?

Both Zappa and the Monkees would make fun of anything. That said, the only Zappa track that actually makes fun of the Beach Boys' music was Let Me Take You To The Beach, from the mid-70s, a very different time. Zappa actually said that Little Deuce Coupe was "the most exciting piece of 'white person' music" he'd ever heard, because of one particular unexpected chord change.

But as to the surf sounds and doo-wop -- Zappa got his start working with Paul Buff (the producer of tracks like Wipe Out and Pipeline) at PAL/Studio Z in the early 60s, and much of his early stuff was generic surf instrumentals like Grunion Run, and that's the music the Mothers originally played. The original Mothers' rhythm guitarist, Elliot Ingber, was actually on Moon Dawg (which the Beach Boys covered early on, and which had Bruce Johnston on keyboards). He no doubt thought that music was cheesy, but for Zappa that wasn't necessarily the same as bad.

As for doo-wop -- Zappa was a doo-wop obsessive. Actually both Zappa and the Beach Boys (at least Carl, and I think Mike) used to listen to Johnny Otis' R&B radio show in the 50s, and picked up a lot of the same influences from that.

Zappa slathered everything he did in layers of irony, but any similarities in his work to the Beach Boys' music are not because he's parodying it, but because he was closer to them in terms of influences than many people would think.

That chord change must have been at "there's one more thing..."

Zappa was quoted by Tom Nolan in 1966 as saying his listeners had "been fed all this garbage for so long.  The Beach Boys, Be True to Your School, and all that.  They don't wanna be true to their school, they want the truth!"    ("The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music," Los Angeles Times WEST Magazine, 11/27/66, emphasis original.)  

I've often thought that Zappa's song "Status Back Baby" was a direct pastiche of that early Beach Boys high-school-status ethos, but I also think the BB's had already satirized that ethos themselves with greater subtlety in "Pom Pom Play Girl."

Of course, the Beach Boys hadn't made a new song about surfing since "Don't Back Down" in 1964, so even they (or at least Brian and Van Dyke Parks) were starting to make ironic references to it by then, as in the title of "Surf's Up."

[AndrewHickey]

That chord change must have been at "there's one more thing..."

He said (in either The Real Frank Zappa Book or the Zollo interview in Songwriters On Songwriting, can't remember which) that it was a V-ii change, as opposed to the more normal ii-V change, which he called "an important step forwards by going backwards". I'd assume that was the Eb-Bbm7 on the title line, but the change to II7 on "there's one more thing..." *is* more striking to my ears, and it's possible it was a typo or misremembering.

Zappa was quoted by Tom Nolan in 1966 as saying his listeners had "been fed all this garbage for so long.  The Beach Boys, Be True to Your School, and all that.  They don't wanna be true to their school, they want the truth!"    ("The Frenzied Frontier of Pop Music," Los Angeles Times WEST Magazine, 11/27/66, emphasis original.)  

Oh, I've absolutely no doubt that Zappa despised everything about the lyrical ethos of the early Beach Boys hits. Of course, by not long after that the Beach Boys themselves were dismissing Be True To Your School and saying they could only play something like that as a joke, in the same interview they were praising Zappa (can't find that interview now -- it dated from the late 60s, and used to be on cabinessence.com back in the late 90s, but doesn't seem to be on surfermoon.com now).

[SufferingFools]

He said (in either The Real Frank Zappa Book or the Zollo interview in Songwriters On Songwriting, can't remember which) that it was a V-ii change, as opposed to the more normal ii-V change, which he called "an important step forwards by going backwards". I'd assume that was the Eb-Bbm7 on the title line, but the change to II7 on "there's one more thing..." *is* more striking to my ears, and it's possible it was a typo or misremembering.

I guess I can see how that V-ii is remarkable, but I'm so damn familiar with the song now it's impossible to hear it as if for the first time!  

[SufferingFools]

.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Of course, the Beach Boys hadn't made a new song about surfing since "Don't Back Down" in 1964, so even they (or at least Brian and Van Dyke Parks) were starting to make ironic references to it by then, as in the title of "Surf's Up."

What about Do it Again?

[AndrewHickey]

Of course, the Beach Boys hadn't made a new song about surfing since "Don't Back Down" in 1964, so even they (or at least Brian and Van Dyke Parks) were starting to make ironic references to it by then, as in the title of "Surf's Up."

What about Do it Again?

Do It Again came later.

[guitarfool2002]

"There's one more thing..." is a II7 dominant chord, which is also traditionally analyzed as a "V7 of V" chord, which means it borrows one note to raise the third to a major, and it leads directly to the actual V7 chord of the song's main key.

So that in itself isn't groundbreaking or different at all, it's standard in traditional music and Bach-style chorale harmonies since the time of Bach.

But Zappa's point was that Brian took the traditional ii/V progression/turnaround, which is as cliche and as commonplace in jazz and "standards" type of music as any other compositional device, and turned it on its head by reversing the supporting chord and the dominant 7th chord, which could be called a deceptive resolution since the V7 is not resolving to anything, and the weaker chord is the one leading back to the root chord.

It's the change, which Brian also repeats twice in the phrase, that happens directly under the hook of the song "she's my little deuce coupe...". So not only did Brian mess with the traditional jazz 'formula", but he also emphasized it by repeating the cadence twice and placing it at the key moment of the whole song form.

Zappa apparently thought that was a brilliant swipe at tradition and at the sometimes formula way which jazz and pop composition had been structured over 40 years.

Remember Zappa also had something he called the "Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression" which jam bands are still beating to death, and he would take conventional jazz or pop progressions and either skewer their overuse or bend and shape them into something different. So hearing Brian Wilson doing this in 1963 seems to have impressed him, but I doubt Brian deliberately did it as a commentary or swipe at jazz conventionality as much as he just liked the progression!  

[SufferingFools]

"There's one more thing..." is a II7 dominant chord, which is also traditionally analyzed as a "V7 of V" chord, which means it borrows one note to raise the third to a major, and it leads directly to the actual V7 chord of the song's main key.

So that in itself isn't groundbreaking or different at all, it's standard in traditional music and Bach-style chorale harmonies since the time of Bach.

But Zappa's point was that Brian took the traditional ii/V progression/turnaround, which is as cliche and as commonplace in jazz and "standards" type of music as any other compositional device, and turned it on its head by reversing the supporting chord and the dominant 7th chord, which could be called a deceptive resolution since the V7 is not resolving to anything, and the weaker chord is the one leading back to the root chord.

It's the change, which Brian also repeats twice in the phrase, that happens directly under the hook of the song "she's my little deuce coupe...". So not only did Brian mess with the traditional jazz 'formula", but he also emphasized it by repeating the cadence twice and placing it at the key moment of the whole song form.

Zappa apparently thought that was a brilliant swipe at tradition and at the sometimes formula way which jazz and pop composition had been structured over 40 years.

Remember Zappa also had something he called the "Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression" which jam bands are still beating to death, and he would take conventional jazz or pop progressions and either skewer their overuse or bend and shape them into something different. So hearing Brian Wilson doing this in 1963 seems to have impressed him, but I doubt Brian deliberately did it as a commentary or swipe at jazz conventionality as much as he just liked the progression!  

Yeah, the more I think about it, that is pretty radical.  It doesn't grab you the way the II7 does (as you say, in quite a traditional way), but if you're following the chords, the V7-ii is like "what the hell?!?" 

[Rocky Raccoon]

I love in the American Band film when they show Hendrix saying that and it fades into the very unhip boys singing Do It Again on Ed Sullivan.  Kind of a cool transition.

[GhostyTMRS]

As far as Elvis and Chuck Berry are concerned, there was a "back to the roots" vibe in 1968 which continued into the 70's. Chuck Berry and Elvis benefited greatly from that (with Elvis 1968 TV special being viewed as one of the greatest comebacks of all time). The Beach Boys were too recent to benefit from any of that residual goodwill...until 1974 at least.

   

[I. Spaceman]

Do It Again was a big hit in 1968 and a part of that roots movement, along with The Beatles' Lady Madonna.

[SufferingFools]

But Wild Honey did the roots thing better, and months earlier.

[SufferingFools]

.

[the professor]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

So said Peter Carlin, but think that reading is a real stretch. It was in fact directed at the BB, as I see it.

[bgas]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

So said Peter Carlin, but think that reading is a real stretch. It was in fact directed at the BB, as I see it.

 Maybe Carlin picked  it up here:  http://oldies.about.com/od/60srockers/f/surfhendrix.htm 
or here:  http://zachweisberg.com/blog/2010/05/19/youll-never-hear-surf-music-again/ 
or here:  http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jimi-hendrixs-comments-about-the-beach-boys.126340/ 
but wherever, it's not directed at the BBs. Hendrix never said it at Monterey( except in Summer Dreams, which is of course totally reliable as a source)
 it is part of the lyrics of "Third Stone Form the Sun" by Jimi( as mentioned above) and I think you need to go back to being a student if this is the best you've got. 

[the professor]

someone else can , no doubt, elaborate( or correct me if I'm in error), but the Hendrix quote was about Dick Dale who was thought to be dying at that point in time, and had nothing to do/ was not directed at the Beach Boys. 

So said Peter Carlin, but think that reading is a real stretch. It was in fact directed at the BB, as I see it.

 Maybe Carlin picked  it up here:  http://oldies.about.com/od/60srockers/f/surfhendrix.htm 
or here:  http://zachweisberg.com/blog/2010/05/19/youll-never-hear-surf-music-again/ 
or here:  http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jimi-hendrixs-comments-about-the-beach-boys.126340/ 
but wherever, it's not directed at the BBs. Hendrix never said it at Monterey( except in Summer Dreams, which is of course totally reliable as a source)
 it is part of the lyrics of "Third Stone Form the Sun" by Jimi( as mentioned above) and I think you need to go back to being a student if this is the best you've got. 

Some useful glosses on the legend, especially DD's own recounting.  I must have defensively fetishized what I thought he said at M-pop. We are all perpetual students, and I am also happy to learn such detail. Thank you Bgas.

[guitarfool2002]

And also worth clarifying since the quotes often get mentioned together is the Hendrix quote about a "psychedelic barbershop quartet", which some still think was a dig at the Beach Boys as a band but was in reality his reaction to hearing the record "Heroes And Villains". Hendrix didn't dig the record, that's fine, but it doesn't mean he had something against the band in general. Not that it matters, but it's another Hendrix/Beach Boys thing that got blown out of proportion.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Of course, the Beach Boys hadn't made a new song about surfing since "Don't Back Down" in 1964, so even they (or at least Brian and Van Dyke Parks) were starting to make ironic references to it by then, as in the title of "Surf's Up."

What about Do it Again?

Do It Again came later.

Umm....ok, I thought  SufferingFools was talking about Surfs Up 71. Perhaps meant 67, since it was heard on tv.