Surf's Up without Surf's Up?

[Cabinessenceking]

It's sad because Dennis was really coming on as a songwriter around this time.  I can see Carl's point about Surf's Up.  They were scrambling for anything that might pique interest...and why not pull out Brian's lost classic?  I would disagree with pulling "Feet" off of the LP...it's got a quirky, fun vibe to it.  SDT would go...and probably Looking at Tomorrow.

Since there was more room on the LP, could they gone for 4th, WIBNTLA and Sound Of Free at the expense of SDT (which most agree is the lacking track in question). I don't mind Feet either, and if it could stay then fine by me. Lookin' At Tomorrow is perhaps on it's own not a very solid song, but the mood which it contributes to the album must not be overlooked! It fits so well in there!

Nice thread 

I think I read in another place in this board that 'SDT' was the song most heavily rotated in college radios from that album. Somehow (I dont know why) college kids found the song 'political' and gave the BBs some 'credibility' in that sense.

So even if I think that its utterly stupid to give any 'political', 'social', 'protest' credentials to 'SDT', I have to acknowledge that it played a key role in them re-gaining some market respect.

For that alone, 'SDT' has an undeniable place in 'Surf's Up'.

Now, 'Take a load of your feet'... what were they thinking....

take away those wailing sirens and de-megaphonise Mike's lead and I would include it over feet for sure!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wasn't Carl's idea to include "Surf's Up" - dude named Van Dyke Parks had that bright idea.

As for DW's songs 'saving' Sunflower... debatable. Consider:

Add Some Music
Susie Cincinnati
Good Time
Our Sweet Love
Tears In The Morning
When Girls Get Together
Slip On Through
Add Some Music To Your Day
Take A Load Off Your Feet
This Whole World
I Just Got My Pay
At My Window
Fallin' In Love

Sunflower (common tracks in italics)
Slip On Through
This Whole World
Add Some Music To Your Day
Got To Know The Woman
Deirdre
It's About Time
Tears In The Morning
All I Wanna Do
Forever
Our Sweet Love
At My Window
Cool, Cool Water

[Don Malcolm]

Dennis's songs didn't "save" Sunflower, but they strengthened it considerably. But, as Andrew's comp shows, the additions of "All I Wanna Do" and "Cool Cool Water" were just as important.

[Bicyclerider]

I think andrew's list completely supports the view that Dennis was the most important factor in the reshaping of the rejected Add Some Music into the accepted Sunflower - he added THREE new songs.  Bruce added one, Brian and mike two.  I can definitely see how Dennis may have seen his contributions as making the difference, whether or not we would agree with that as the mini suite Cool Cool Water was also a major addition, and seeing how it was done by request of Lenny , one could argue its' inclusion may have been the crucial "tipping point."

[Sound of Free]

I've said this before here, but it amazes me that a dispute between Carl and Dennis kept Surf's Up from being a classic album. I would say the only time after the breakdown of SMiLE The Beach Boys had a chance to become a contemporary force again was in 1971. Jack Rieley had built them back up in the public eye, and the addition of the song Surf's Up had built a lot of interest - enough to push the album to No. 29 on the chart.

Dennis' songs could have turned a very good album into a truly great one. I've never heard WIBNTLA, but I'll trust those that have and believe it's great. I love 4th of July, and my handle should tell you what I think of Sound of Free.

Adding a couple of Dennis tunes could have truly made the album the full-fledged comeback the group needed, and possibly could have kept Brian interested. And maybe that whole nostalgia thing that Carl and Dennis hated wouldn't have happened.

As an aside, regarding 4th of July, a Carl Wilson scratch vocal is still something most singer could opnly dream of achieving.

[I. Spaceman]

But it WAS as big of a full-fledged comeback as the band could possibly have achieved at that point in their career. Two more Dennis songs wouldn't have carried it higher. Four were on the previous record, and that didn't do anything. Forever was a single, it went nowhere.
Surf's Up would have been an even better album with Dennis contributions, no doubt. But it is already a classic, sorely underrated by fans these days, but not at the time, and frankly not until the 90's.

[Cam Mott]

I wouldn't change anything. It's the Beach Boys' "White Album".

But, that was the point I was (and others) were trying to make above. Surf's Up is the anti-White Album. It's not a double album, but could've been. It doesn't have representation from all of the band members, but should've. And it didn't adopt a "let's put everything on" philosophy which I wish it would've.

The White Album has been criticized in some circles as having too much fluff, songs that weren't representative of a group the stature of The Beatles, and it should've been whittled down to a single abum. You can't say about Surf's Up. It was whittled down too much. Look at all of the songs The Beach Boys had in tha can at that time. Dennis's stuff alone could've filled an entire side.

I suppose I'm not being quite so literal.

[Cam Mott]

But it WAS as big of a full-fledged comeback as the band could possibly have achieved at that point in their career. Two more Dennis songs wouldn't have carried it higher. Four were on the previous record, and that didn't do anything. Forever was a single, it went nowhere.
Surf's Up would have been an even better album with Dennis contributions, no doubt. But it is already a classic, sorely underrated by fans these days, but not at the time, and frankly not until the 90's.

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?

[schiaffino]

But it WAS as big of a full-fledged comeback as the band could possibly have achieved at that point in their career. Two more Dennis songs wouldn't have carried it higher. Four were on the previous record, and that didn't do anything. Forever was a single, it went nowhere.
Surf's Up would have been an even better album with Dennis contributions, no doubt. But it is already a classic, sorely underrated by fans these days, but not at the time, and frankly not until the 90's.

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?

Don't want to bug anyone, but aren't Dennis songs overrated? Aren't we just desperately trying to find any signs of genius in the band aside from Brian's? As a sort of validation that our musical 'faith' is not in vain?

Carl did really good with 'Feel Flows' and 'Long Promised Road'. But those songs had a larger resonance because of the album they were in. An album that had 'Surf's Up'. But elsewhere ('Sunflower') he failed miserably as did Dennis and the others.

I don't know. It's really hard for me to find non Brian songs that I can really listen to and say 'wow' this is amazing.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe my memory is out of whack but I don't remember SU being the big deal of SU. It was more like a venerated resusitated zombie but FF and LPR were the lively desirable jewels and Carl's modern production was the honored achievement.

[lee]

I think some of Dennis' songs are overrated but I think songs like  Fallin' in Love, Forever, Ship On Through, Little Bird, Be With Me... are great. He has some songs I don't like as much but the same goes for Brian or any other artist I like. The only song on Sunflower where Carl has a song writing credit is Our Sweet Love so I don't see how he failed miserably. That's one of my favorites on the album. His vocals on that album are fantastic as well.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Didn't Steven Desper say that on all of the rough cuts of Surf's Up he owns, none of them included "WIBNTLA" at any point?

The joy of BB scholarship: Person A, who was there, says one thing, person B, with equally fine credentials, says something else.

And then there's Carol Kaye.  

Carol Kaye has a beard?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Back to the title of this topic, I think Surfs Up is one of the best songs on the LP. As was Cabinessence with 20/20. But to me, they seem out of place. I only think of those songs as being SMiLE songs. At least when I create my own 'Surfs Up', I don't include the title track. Student is a rockin song, but again, I don't include it on the album. Perhaps as a single only the Beatles often did.

But I add in songs like: Sound of Free, Lady, My Solution (or was that recorded too late?), Carnival and Out in the Country.

How about this album:

Don't Go Near the Water       Sound of Free
Long Promised Road              Feel Flows
Disney Girls                            My Solution
Lookin At Tomorrow               A Day in the Life of a Tree
Carnival                                 Out in the Country
Lady                                       Til I Die (Desper mix)
                              

[I. Spaceman]

Maybe my memory is out of whack but I don't remember SU being the big deal of SU. It was more like a venerated resusitated zombie but FF and LPR were the lively desirable jewels and Carl's modern production was the honored achievement.

Yeah, I remember growing up in LA, and listening to those Top 500 Songs holiday countdowns on AOR radio, and Feel Flows was usually on there. That and Promised Road were easily the standouts to me when I first heard the album, along with 'Til I Die and Surf's Up (even though I didn't fully "get" the latter of those until I heard it in Smile-context).

[Theydon Bois]

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?
...
Maybe my memory is out of whack but I don't remember SU being the big deal of SU. It was more like a venerated resusitated zombie but FF and LPR were the lively desirable jewels and Carl's modern production was the honored achievement.

Is this purely a memory of the "community" response, or do any of the contemporary reviews back any of this up?  The first one I found online, from Rolling Stone, devotes a quarter of its length to the title track ("dazzling almost to ear-blindness"), notes the absence of Dennis songs in the first paragraph, dismisses "Feet" in one sentence and says the lyrics of "Student Demonstration Time" are "embarrassing".  Carl's songs are praised but not singled out especially.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/surfs-up-19711014

[Mr. Cohen]

Am I the only one who couldn't live without "TALOYF"? I've always looked at it as a latter day "Vegetables". The goofy, echoing kitchen sink production is really fun, too. I live for the silly organ part that starts at about 1:38, and those fine strings on the coda are just right.

I think "Student Demonstration Time" and "Lookin' at Tomorrow" are the real weak links. Replace those with the best two Dennis songs available and you really do improve the album.

[I. Spaceman]

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?
...
Maybe my memory is out of whack but I don't remember SU being the big deal of SU. It was more like a venerated resusitated zombie but FF and LPR were the lively desirable jewels and Carl's modern production was the honored achievement.

Is this purely a memory of the "community" response, or do any of the contemporary reviews back any of this up?  The first one I found online, from Rolling Stone, devotes a quarter of its length to the title track ("dazzling almost to ear-blindness"), notes the absence of Dennis songs in the first paragraph, dismisses "Feet" in one sentence and says the lyrics of "Student Demonstration Time" are "embarrassing".  Carl's songs are praised but not singled out especially.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/surfs-up-19711014

True, but it also says "This is a good album, probably as good as Sunflower, which is terrific, and which I've had six months more to listen to. It is certainly the most original in that it has contributed something purely its own." It should also be noted that the writer was a Beach Boys hardcore fan, whose feelings certainly weren't shared by the mainstream audience, for better or worse.

[Phoenix]

I took "Surf's Up" off my version (to keep all the Smile stuff together) and I think it works great, starting with "4th Of July" and ending with "'Til I Die".  Now if only I could include WIBNTLA!  I might even be able to get rid of TALOYF and make the album perfect!  Tho to be honest, "Feet" does have a certain "charm" to it and wouldn't "weigh the album down" as much with WIBNTLA picking up the slack with it's (alleged) out and out magnificence.  The album title and cover still works in the same way as So Tough's. 

[Cam Mott]

I seem to remember interview with Carl about the amazing ways he got the sounds of the SU album, his songs in particular. Maybe it was all the dream of an autistic boy about the scene in his snowglobe.

[runnersdialzero]

"Feet" kicks ass. I'm not booting anything off of an album for a song I've never heard before based on hype. No song in their canon at the time was going to save these guys from the continued commercial failure, sometimes the world refuses to accept quality (even from a formerly known name) and no one can stay on top forever and ever and ever.

[I. Spaceman]

"Feet" kicks ass. I'm not booting anything off of an album for a song I've never heard before based on hype. No song in their canon at the time was going to save these guys from the continued commercial failure, sometimes the world refuses to accept quality (even from a formerly known name) and no one can stay on top forever and ever and ever.

The album wasn't a commercial failure tho, which makes the case for including other material even weaker.

[runnersdialzero]

"Feet" kicks ass. I'm not booting anything off of an album for a song I've never heard before based on hype. No song in their canon at the time was going to save these guys from the continued commercial failure, sometimes the world refuses to accept quality (even from a formerly known name) and no one can stay on top forever and ever and ever.

The album wasn't a commercial failure tho, which makes the case for including other material even weaker.

Probably wasn't a failure I guess, but I don't know if I'd call it a significant commercial success.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But it WAS as big of a full-fledged comeback as the band could possibly have achieved at that point in their career. Two more Dennis songs wouldn't have carried it higher. Four were on the previous record, and that didn't do anything. Forever was a single, it went nowhere.
Surf's Up would have been an even better album with Dennis contributions, no doubt. But it is already a classic, sorely underrated by fans these days, but not at the time, and frankly not until the 90's.

I agree with Ian. I remember SU having a very good rep at release and SDT was not reviled and TALOYF was accepted as BB goofy.

The more I think about back then, Carl was seen as the hero of SU. Feel Flows and Long Promised Road where the stand outs [maybe Disney Girls to a lesser extent] that got people excited. Dennis was not really on peoples' radar and wouldn't have made any/much difference I think. Anybody else have a different experience/memory of the time?

Don't want to bug anyone, but aren't Dennis songs overrated? Aren't we just desperately trying to find any signs of genius in the band aside from Brian's? As a sort of validation that our musical 'faith' is not in vain?

Carl did really good with 'Feel Flows' and 'Long Promised Road'. But those songs had a larger resonance because of the album they were in. An album that had 'Surf's Up'. But elsewhere ('Sunflower') he failed miserably as did Dennis and the others.

I don't know. It's really hard for me to find non Brian songs that I can really listen to and say 'wow' this is amazing.

I dare say you might be hanging out on the wrong board!

[Myk Luhv]

"Feet" kicks ass. I'm not booting anything off of an album for a song I've never heard before based on hype. No song in their canon at the time was going to save these guys from the continued commercial failure, sometimes the world refuses to accept quality (even from a formerly known name) and no one can stay on top forever and ever and ever.

The album wasn't a commercial failure tho, which makes the case for including other material even weaker.

Probably wasn't a failure I guess, but I don't know if I'd call it a significant commercial success.

You don't think your next album peaking at #29 instead of #151 is significant?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I seem to remember interview with Carl about the amazing ways he got the sounds of the SU album, his songs in particular. Maybe it was all the dream of an autistic boy about the scene in his snowglobe.

I seem to remember it was in the Nolan 2-parter in Rolling Stone, fall 1971. 2nd part, I do believe.