WIBNTLA Petition

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I'd say the chances of WIBNTLA are high. '74 "California Feelin'", based on recent descriptions, I'm not sure on. C'mon, o sweet one - you and I both know fan demand doesn't necessarily dictate what fans get from another band we've talked about. It feels like it needs too much explanation and apology to see official release. "It's just a demo. Well, it's just Brian playing the song into an open mic. Yeah, Brian's kind of dicking around with the vocal. There are better versions out there. Why didn't we release those? Well, erm..." etc. etc. etc.

Also, missing guitar solo? I can't see something like that ensuring it doesn't see release given how incomplete a lot of Smile tracks were, "Shunshine" seeing release, etc. And the guitar solo being a repeating, three note solo? Sounds like it'd be simple enough to get the right person (maybe David?) in there with the right gear to make it happen. If they can write new lyrics to "Holy Man" and get someone as unlikely as Taylor Hawkins in there and get such good results, surely they could recreate a very simple guitar solo.

I agree that a certain other band that we like has a knack for doing things that leave the fans cold, but personally I think that it's because that band's leader enjoys dangling those unreachable carrots out in front of the fan's faces. I also think that Mr. Cuomo is also "saving" certain material because he knows he's lost a bit of his fan base, and if everything was out there, there'd be nothing more to wish for, and people like myself would lose interest in his group. And lastly, I just think he likes being a jerk, especially to those who care the most about his work (his own band included).

The Beach Boys, and Brian in particular, at this point, I think are more open to okay things if they are told that's what the fans want. I could see Melinda and a rep from Brother saying, "hey Brian, is it ok if we put this version of 'California Feelin'' on the box set?" And he'd say, "Yeah, sure, ya wanna go get something to eat?"

Why didn't WIBNTLA appear on the Surf's Up album in 1971?

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but apparently Carl and Dennis got into an argument over the order of the songs that would be on the album, and as a result, Dennis pulled his songs off. I think basically Dennis wanted "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again" to be the final track, coming after "'Til I Die". However, Carl was in favor of "Surf's Up", and I can't say I disagree with him. So basically as I see it, Dennis kinda cut of his nose to spite his face.

Carl was looking backwards, Dennis was looking forwards. Carl won. Pity.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but apparently Carl and Dennis got into an argument over the order of the songs that would be on the album, and as a result, Dennis pulled his songs off. I think basically Dennis wanted "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again" to be the final track, coming after "'Til I Die". However, Carl was in favor of "Surf's Up", and I can't say I disagree with him. So basically as I see it, Dennis kinda cut of his nose to spite his face.

Carl was looking backwards, Dennis was looking forwards. Carl won. Pity.

Wasn't it Dennis who said something along the lines of "f*** you, Brian. We need this song," when Brian protested them finishing "Surf's Up"? Dennis had to have recognized it as a great song and an important song for the band. Can you really fault Carl for "looking backwards" in wanting to complete one of their absolute best songs?

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end? Carl had it right. The album as is already basically has three tracks that should've closed albums all in a row at the end, one more would've made it even weirder. The best answer would have been to reserve "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" for the next album, but that didn't happen, presumably because Dennis was holding out for his solo album which obviously didn't happen until several years later.

[Dave Modny]

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but apparently Carl and Dennis got into an argument over the order of the songs that would be on the album, and as a result, Dennis pulled his songs off. I think basically Dennis wanted "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again" to be the final track, coming after "'Til I Die". However, Carl was in favor of "Surf's Up", and I can't say I disagree with him. So basically as I see it, Dennis kinda cut of his nose to spite his face.

Carl was looking backwards, Dennis was looking forwards. Carl won. Pity.

Wasn't it Dennis who said something along the lines of "f*** you, Brian. We need this song," when Brian protested them finishing "Surf's Up"? Dennis had to have recognized it as a great song and an important song for the band. Can you really fault Carl for "looking backwards" in wanting to complete one of their absolute best songs?

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end? Carl had it right. The album as is already basically has three tracks that should've closed albums all in a row at the end, one more would've made it even weirder. The best answer would have been to reserve "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" for the next album, but that didn't happen, presumably because Dennis was holding out for his solo album which obviously didn't happen until several years later.

I suppose, politically, it probably would've never happened at the time in a million years in terms of a "bump," but I know where I'll be putting the song on my home-brewed version of Surf's Up (the album) if I'm lucky enough to live long enough for it to see the light of day. For me, it's still going to end "a" side of the LP, and that's where I think it would've actually worked best on the album. "Surf's Up" (the song) does indeed belong as the LP's total closer, IMHO. And at the very least, depending on one's point of view, in the CD age and beyond, "bumps" aren't always necessary to please all sides.

(The ironic thing is...both WIBNTLA and Fourth of July still *probably* could've been added to each side, respectively, at the time, as the album now stands. 12 songs total (like Sunflower) and still just under, or right around 40 minutes total [20 + 20].) 

[pixletwin]

Carl was looking backwards, Dennis was looking forwards. Carl won. Pity.

Very well put.

[runnersdialzero]

Why should Carl be faulted with finishing "Surf's Up", one of the best of their career and only four years old at that time, and placing it at the end of an album as per its original intent, again?

[EgoHanger1966]

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but apparently Carl and Dennis got into an argument over the order of the songs that would be on the album, and as a result, Dennis pulled his songs off. I think basically Dennis wanted "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again" to be the final track, coming after "'Til I Die". However, Carl was in favor of "Surf's Up", and I can't say I disagree with him. So basically as I see it, Dennis kinda cut of his nose to spite his face.

Carl was looking backwards, Dennis was looking forwards. Carl won. Pity.

Wasn't it Dennis who said something along the lines of "f*** you, Brian. We need this song," when Brian protested them finishing "Surf's Up"? Dennis had to have recognized it as a great song and an important song for the band. Can you really fault Carl for "looking backwards" in wanting to complete one of their absolute best songs?

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end? Carl had it right. The album as is already basically has three tracks that should've closed albums all in a row at the end, one more would've made it even weirder. The best answer would have been to reserve "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" for the next album, but that didn't happen, presumably because Dennis was holding out for his solo album which obviously didn't happen until several years later.

They could have re-arranged the track order and put Surf's Up (the track) as the opener. I know everyone thinks of it as the closer and that's the only place it can be fit, but is it really? SU, the album, wasn't SMiLE, so there's no reason it had to finish the album. Imagine the album with Surf's Up as the first track - a breathtaker. You can't say the same for Don't Go Near The Water.

[pixletwin]

How does the assumption (and as far as I know it is just an assumption) that Surf's Up was to end Smile have anything to do with sequencing a completely different album 4 years later - - remembering that 4 years back then was a much longer gap between albums than what we are accustomed to today.

IIRC Dennis objected to SU's inclusion on the album not just because he wanted the slot for his own song, but because Brian objected to it's inclusion on the album at all; let alone as the final track.

[runnersdialzero]

Eh. To me, seems like it'd be an awkward opener, too long to be an opener, and the ending leading into any one of the earlier tracks on the album wouldn't have worked at all. Smile context or not, that's a closing track, to my ears. I don't see how people are so convinced Carl f***ed up by finishing one of their best songs and placing it at the end of the album where it belongs in comparison to a Dennis song they've only heard a cover of, if they've heard it at all. Just me, though.

Don't let Dennis and Carl having what sounds like a somewhat childish fight over the issue confuse things - why does it have to be "Carl destroyed 'Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again' and cheapened the Surf's Up album as we've been told Mike destroyed Smile. Carl is clearly a stubborn asshole"? Why didn't it close Carl & The Passions or Pacific Ocean Blue instead?

I don't think it was an assumption that "Sur's Up" would close Smile. There was some contemporary article or something on Smile stating that "Surf's Up" was, at the time that was printed, meant to close the album. Anyone know what I'm referring to? Can't remember off-hand.

Interesting that you say Dennis didn't want "Surf's Up" released - I'd heard the opposite, as I'd posted above.

[EgoHanger1966]

Eh. To me, seems like it'd be an awkward opener, too long to be an opener, and the ending leading into any one of the earlier tracks on the album wouldn't have worked at all. Smile context or not, that's a closing track, to my ears. I don't see how people are so convinced Carl f***ed up by finishing one of their best songs and placing it at the end of the album where it belongs in comparison to a Dennis song they've only heard a cover of, if they've heard it at all. Just me, though.

I don't think it was an assumption - there was some contemporary article or something on Smile stating that "Surf's Up" was, at the time that was printed, meant to close the album. Anyone know what I'm referring to? Can't remember off-hand.

Interesting that you say Dennis didn't want "Surf's Up" released - I'd heard the opposite, as I'd posted above.

Difference of opinion, I guess. I can hear it - Surf's Up as the opening track, with the child coda, and the second track being Long Promised Road. Smooth.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Asking  Al about the song; he had no recollection about it whatsoever.

He said the recording might be one owned by James William Guercio.

Jon - do you know who owns this recording?  BRI? Dennis' estate? Guercio?

[EgoHanger1966]

Asking  Al about the song; he had no recollection about it whatsoever.

He said the recording might be one owned by James William Guercio.

Jon - do you know who owns this recording?  BRI? Dennis' estate? Guercio?

Guercio (a member of "Chicago") co-produced LA Light with Bruce 'Historical' Johnston. I don't think he was involved with anything during the Surf's Up era, though.

[anazgnos]

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end?

About two-thirds of the way through, apparently.

Really though seems like it just as easily could have been the closer for Side 1 instead of Side 2.  It would have imparted the same sense of finality and wouldn't have had to have any awkward transitions afterward, given the palate-cleansing act of flipping the record.

[pixletwin]

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end?

About two-thirds of the way through, apparently.

Really though seems like it just as easily could have been the closer for Side 1 instead of Side 2.  It would have imparted the same sense of finality and wouldn't have had to have any awkward transitions afterward, given the palate-cleansing act of flipping the record.

That is where I would place it as well. It works best (imo) as a mid-point closer.

[runnersdialzero]

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end?

About two-thirds of the way through, apparently.

Really though seems like it just as easily could have been the closer for Side 1 instead of Side 2.  It would have imparted the same sense of finality and wouldn't have had to have any awkward transitions afterward, given the palate-cleansing act of flipping the record.

Again, why is it "Carl was in charge, but he should have moved where he strongly felt 'Surf's Up' to be because Dennis was being stubborn"? How can we be so sure that Dennis wasn't in the wrong having never heard the proper version, especially when his song is up against the likes of... y'know, "Surf's Up"?

Another thought: Why not two albums in 1971? It could've been done and both could've been pretty solid.

[Mikie]

We don't need no stinkin' petition!   This song's gonna be released soon anyway - do or die.

[adamghost]

The first time I ever heard the song, my reaction was exactly this:  "Now SURF'S UP makes sense to me."  It really did belong on that album.  Where you would have put it...I don't know.  I think Dennis and Carl were both right.

I think everyone's general sense, based on what very little I have heard, about where the box set is going so far is correct.  But a lot of people have to sign off on a lot of things, so there's no way to know how it will turn out.  I do believe the intent is there to give the fans what they want and that there is some interesting stuff still unheard...but we'll just have to see.  WIBNTLA was supposed to come out years ago, but it got kiboshed.  So there ya go.  

[adamghost]

I don't mean at all to hijack the thread but I wanted to mention that we are almost sold out of LONG PROMISED ROAD, which is where the only version of this song officially released exists...we're having a sell-out party and "50 Sides of the Beach Boys" show this Friday here in Los Angeles which I have posted about elsewhere on SS.  If someone wants to grab a copy of the album before they are gone, they should e-mail me immediately.  I just five minutes ago took inventory in advance of the show and, minus the copies already sold, we have 13 left, and some of those will probably go on Friday.

So, where's the petition again?  Sign me up!  FWIW, I know that there's a lot of desire within some of the BBs camp to get this song out.  It really is one of the more wonderful unreleased Dennis songs we have yet to hear....

(adam marsland)

Sorry if I'm carrying on the hijack but here goes. I don't post here much but have followed the board since before BWPS. Anyways, just wanted to post my love for WIBNTLA in the only form I know it - on Long Promised Road. However, the song I really love on the CD is The Big Bear. It just rocks! Kinda fits the Beach Boys mid-70s nature mysticism though I know its a Marsland original from much later. Not entirely sure what the song's about but that's okay. It's really poetic. So thank you Mr Marsland and your collaborators. Long may you make music!

(Simon Young, UK)

Wow.  Simon, thank you so much for that.  That is really, really sweet.  We shall try.  I don't know what the song is about, either, to be honest with you.  I was very tired that day...

[runnersdialzero]

I think Dennis and Carl were both right.

Yes! That's what I'm sayin', d00dz.

[pixletwin]

The first time I ever heard the song, my reaction was exactly this:  "Now SURF'S UP makes sense to me."  It really did belong on that album.  Where you would have put it...I don't know.  I think Dennis and Carl were both right.

Curious what your sequence would be Adam if you were the God of all things Beach Boys and time travel. 

[Disney Boy (1985)]

How does the assumption (and as far as I know it is just an assumption) that Surf's Up was to end Smile have anything to do with sequencing a completely different album 4 years later - - remembering that 4 years back then was a much longer gap between albums than what we are accustomed to today.

IIRC Dennis objected to SU's inclusion on the album not just because he wanted the slot for his own song, but because Brian objected to it's inclusion on the album at all; let alone as the final track.

Yes this is what i remember reading, that Dennis objected to Surf's Up's inclusion because it upset Brian so much. Pity they couldn't have compromised - if Surf' Up really had to close the album then why couldn't WIBNTLA have opened it? If the song is as amazing as is rumoured then presumably it'd have made for a more worthwhile opener than the lightweight DGNTW.

[Dave Modny]

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end?

About two-thirds of the way through, apparently.

Really though seems like it just as easily could have been the closer for Side 1 instead of Side 2.  It would have imparted the same sense of finality and wouldn't have had to have any awkward transitions afterward, given the palate-cleansing act of flipping the record.

That is where I would place it as well. It works best (imo) as a mid-point closer.

Yep. Have WIBNTLA end side one. Add Fourth Of July to side two. 12 songs total. 40 min. LP (20+20). Nothing need be dropped. Even "Feet" can stay!

In my opinion, WIBNTLA would've been just as epic and conceptually fitting as a side one closer -- with the Charles Lloyd flute work fading off into the ether. Now...would *Mike* have agreed to that, or rather, insisted his rocker close the side? Good question.

[Jim V.]

The first time I ever heard the song, my reaction was exactly this:  "Now SURF'S UP makes sense to me."  It really did belong on that album.  Where you would have put it...I don't know.  I think Dennis and Carl were both right.

I think everyone's general sense, based on what very little I have heard, about where the box set is going so far is correct.  But a lot of people have to sign off on a lot of things, so there's no way to know how it will turn out.  I do believe the intent is there to give the fans what they want and that there is some interesting stuff still unheard...but we'll just have to see.  WIBNTLA was supposed to come out years ago, but it got kiboshed.  So there ya go.  

I hate to sound like Phil, but I sure hope there still isn't "a lot of things to sign off on" still. Because, if this thing is coming out by, say, November or December, one would assume that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed by now.

[anazgnos]

Where else do you even put "Surf's Up" on an album if not at the end?

About two-thirds of the way through, apparently.

Really though seems like it just as easily could have been the closer for Side 1 instead of Side 2.  It would have imparted the same sense of finality and wouldn't have had to have any awkward transitions afterward, given the palate-cleansing act of flipping the record.

Again, why is it "Carl was in charge, but he should have moved where he strongly felt 'Surf's Up' to be because Dennis was being stubborn"? How can we be so sure that Dennis wasn't in the wrong having never heard the proper version, especially when his song is up against the likes of... y'know, "Surf's Up"?

Because I have good reason to suspect that Dennis' unheard early 70s efforts are superlative, and because it stings, as a fan, to know that a mere sequencing kerfuffle stopped his material from being included.  Because I feel Surf's Up is very nearly a great album, and the sense that on evidence both heard and unheard, Dennis' material would have elevated it considerably.  Because in hindsight it seems so plainly evident that any number of workable compromises could (and should) have been arrived at.

[Reddiwhip]

Anything would have been better than Student Demonstration Time.

[adamghost]

The first time I ever heard the song, my reaction was exactly this:  "Now SURF'S UP makes sense to me."  It really did belong on that album.  Where you would have put it...I don't know.  I think Dennis and Carl were both right.

I think everyone's general sense, based on what very little I have heard, about where the box set is going so far is correct.  But a lot of people have to sign off on a lot of things, so there's no way to know how it will turn out.  I do believe the intent is there to give the fans what they want and that there is some interesting stuff still unheard...but we'll just have to see.  WIBNTLA was supposed to come out years ago, but it got kiboshed.  So there ya go.  

I hate to sound like Phil, but I sure hope there still isn't "a lot of things to sign off on" still. Because, if this thing is coming out by, say, November or December, one would assume that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed by now.

I know VERY little, just heard a few things by osmosis that seem to confirm the general thrust of where people are hoping the box might go.  As far as the politics of it goes I don't know and I don't want to know.  But my uninformed sense is the track listing has not been approved yet.  Do not take that as gospel, however.  I could be totally wrong.  I'm not in the loop in any way.  I just think there's reasons to hope that it's going to be really cool, but history with the band has taught us good intentions don't always make it to the final product.  We'll see.