Why Were Carl & Dennis So Easy To "Replace"?

[jeffcdo]

I feel Carl's absence much more on the record than in the live concert experience.  I think it's partially due to becoming accustomed to seeing Brian and his band over the past decade plus, and the fact that for me Carl's soaring vocals were the big redeeming factor in much of the later Beach Boys material (California Dreamin' and Kokomo to name two).

[KittyKat]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

[adamghost]

I think the presence and authenticity that David brings to the table PLUS the fact that Brian is at a much higher functioning level playing live with the band than at any point since 1965 are the two things that make the difference.  The fact that we get to see Brian onstage singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" halfway decently is absolutely mind-blowing to me.  Imagine such a thing in 1977 or 1981.  No way.  In a lot of ways, Carl stepped up to fill the void Brian left.  Now Brian is returning the favor.

I also have to ask myself if the reunion would have happened if Carl had been alive, or if it would have happened quite this way.  Without Carl, there's basically two centers of power in the band.  With him, there would certainly have been three...it might have been very difficult to make it all work to everyone's satisfaction.  One reason I think this reunion works in some ways is you are back to the functioning dynamics of the band circa 1964, where Brian and Mike are dividing power and everyone else, while contributing greatly, are to some degree along for the ride.  It's fascinating to watch Brian reassert such dominance over the band after MANY MANY years...but the personnel, dynamics and structure of the situation now are such that it can happen. 

[mabewa]

The first answer to this question to me is that they weren't replaced--it's not like the Who getting Kenney Jones or the Stones getting Mick Taylor and later Ronnie Wood.  They are lucky to have 5 surviving members from the 60's, and that makes them credible, but no-one is really replacing Carl and Dennis. 

There are a lot of other good reasons listed above, but the most obvious is just that Brian is truly back, and that adds a huge amount of the credibility that is lost by the lack of Carl (as pointed out above, as important as he was, Dennis was often absent even when he was alive, so it's somewhat easier for them to be the Beach Boys without him). 

One thing I do find interesting in the Rolling Stone article:  with Brian and Al's voices having lowered, they can fill Carl's parts in the vocal blend.  And, as someone else pointed out, since Brian wrote or co-wrote so much of their stuff, no-one can object to his singing Carl's leads on stuff like This Whole World and Good Vibrations.

I also think that even a lot of casual fans understand that they were a family band, and you can't really have the Beach Boys without at least one Wilson brother.  For a long time, they were basically Mike, Carl, Al and Bruce, now they are Mike, Brian, Al, Bruce and David--you've still got that one Wilson brother making it a family band with Mike. 

[filledeplage]

I think the presence and authenticity that David brings to the table PLUS the fact that Brian is at a much higher functioning level playing live with the band than at any point since 1965 are the two things that make the difference.  The fact that we get to see Brian onstage singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" halfway decently is absolutely mind-blowing to me.  Imagine such a thing in 1977 or 1981.  No way.  In a lot of ways, Carl stepped up to fill the void Brian left.  Now Brian is returning the favor.

I also have to ask myself if the reunion would have happened if Carl had been alive, or if it would have happened quite this way.  Without Carl, there's basically two centers of power in the band.  With him, there would certainly have been three...it might have been very difficult to make it all work to everyone's satisfaction.  One reason I think this reunion works in some ways is you are back to the functioning dynamics of the band circa 1964, where Brian and Mike are dividing power and everyone else, while contributing greatly, are to some degree along for the ride.  It's fascinating to watch Brian reassert such dominance over the band after MANY MANY years...but the personnel, dynamics and structure of the situation now are such that it can happen. 

That is a nice metaphor you offer in your first paragraph.  Brian returning the favor... Lovely thought...

Carl's passing, oddly enough, and three way split, forced this personal growth among the respective bands. It must have required incredible patience to train the newer bands, nothwithstanding the fact that they each had former BB people who knew the ropes, the music and the general dynamic.  It somehow, makes this all the sweeter.  They all have much of which to be proud. 

They are better than ever, incredible as it seems: Professional competence, musical confidence, and renewed collegiality. 

Just amazing. 

[Jon Stebbins]

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, he is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.

The reason i say David is an honorary Wilson is not about being a cheerleader or apologist its just a simple fact. He was family to them. Ask anyone close to the family including Brian and Mike and that's the answer you will get. If that bothers you I'm a little puzzled why. He's the only one other than Mike who knew them in their childhood, long before music was the hub holding them together. Brian does not represent this great musical genius or even a guy Dave wanted to be in a band with, he represents a big brother figure, the guy who taught him how to throw a football, Dennis is the guy who showed him the world, got in trouble with him, and got him laid. Carl is the guy he discovered rock and roll with. Al became friends with Brian many years after David had been a part of the Wilsons lives. You do know Dave moved directly across the street from them in early 1956. Carl was 9, Dennis was 11, and Brian was 13.  Audree and Murry were like another set of parents to him. When i say honorary Wilson my point is that David, to Brian, is family, he goes back in his memory bank to a place and time that was long before there were Pendletones and Beach Boys...he's the kid from across the street that was his younger brother's best friend. Simple.

[Jon Stebbins]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

[Jim V.]

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, he is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.

The reason i say David is an honorary Wilson is not about being a cheerleader or apologist its just a simple fact. He was family to them. Ask anyone close to the family including Brian and Mike and that's the answer you will get. If that bothers you I'm a little puzzled why. He's the only one other than Mike who knew them in their childhood, long before music was the hub holding them together. Brian does not represent this great musical genius or even a guy Dave wanted to be in a band with, he represents a big brother figure, the guy who taught him how to throw a football, Dennis is the guy who showed him the world, got in trouble with him, and got him laid. Carl is the guy he discovered rock and roll with. Al became friends with Brian many years after David had been a part of the Wilsons lives. You do know Dave moved directly across the street from them in early 1956. Carl was 9, Dennis was 11, and Brian was 13.  Audree and Murry were like another set of parents to him. When i say honorary Wilson my point is that David, to Brian, is family, he goes back in his memory bank to a place and time that was long before there were Pendletones and Beach Boys...he's the kid from across the street that was his younger brother's best friend. Simple.

That's awesome, totally cool. But I still don't know when that has to do with anything.  He was a close friend. And a Beach Boys at one point (and now again today), but I just get the feeling that you are always trying to "legitimize" David all the time, when I don't even think he needs it. He was in the band on the first four albums, and on countless compilations. He chose to leave the band, and they went on to do their best work without him. Would he have made it better? Maybe, who knows. But he didn't, and ended up basically being bar-band level by the mid-'70s until the mid-'90s while producing sub-Eagles soft rock most of the time that generated little interest. Don't get me wrong, I think he is great with The Beach Boys, and some of the Marksmen stuff is cool, but he's not Peter Green or Jimi Hendrix. He was the rhythm guitar player for the early Beach Boys, and a really nice guy, but I think somebody like Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, he is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.

The reason i say David is an honorary Wilson is not about being a cheerleader or apologist its just a simple fact. He was family to them. Ask anyone close to the family including Brian and Mike and that's the answer you will get. If that bothers you I'm a little puzzled why. He's the only one other than Mike who knew them in their childhood, long before music was the hub holding them together. Brian does not represent this great musical genius or even a guy Dave wanted to be in a band with, he represents a big brother figure, the guy who taught him how to throw a football, Dennis is the guy who showed him the world, got in trouble with him, and got him laid. Carl is the guy he discovered rock and roll with. Al became friends with Brian many years after David had been a part of the Wilsons lives. You do know Dave moved directly across the street from them in early 1956. Carl was 9, Dennis was 11, and Brian was 13.  Audree and Murry were like another set of parents to him. When i say honorary Wilson my point is that David, to Brian, is family, he goes back in his memory bank to a place and time that was long before there were Pendletones and Beach Boys...he's the kid from across the street that was his younger brother's best friend. Simple.

That's awesome, totally cool. But I still don't know when that has to do with anything.  He was a close friend. And a Beach Boys at one point (and now again today), but I just get the feeling that you are always trying to "legitimize" David all the time, when I don't even think he needs it. He was in the band on the first four albums, and on countless compilations. He chose to leave the band, and they went on to do their best work without him. Would he have made it better? Maybe, who knows. But he didn't, and ended up basically being bar-band level by the mid-'70s until the mid-'90s while producing sub-Eagles soft rock most of the time that generated little interest. Don't get me wrong, I think he is great with The Beach Boys, and some of the Marksmen stuff is cool, but he's not Peter Green or Jimi Hendrix. He was the rhythm guitar player for the early Beach Boys, and a really nice guy, but I think somebody like Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave.

I think you're going off on a tangent that has little to do with the premise of the thread. Great, you think I am too enthusiastic in my effort to "legitimize" David. Got it. You aren't the first. But the premise of the thread is why were Carl and Dennis not missed more in the reunion, and my feeling is that for some fans...when you lose family it helps (a little) to bring back some other (lost) family who has a deep connection to those missing guys. You wrote that "Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave"...so why just not say you think by having Al there it helps make it easier to enjoy a tour without Dennis and Carl. I think that's what we're talking about here.

[KittyKat]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

[bgas]

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, he is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.

The reason i say David is an honorary Wilson is not about being a cheerleader or apologist its just a simple fact. He was family to them. Ask anyone close to the family including Brian and Mike and that's the answer you will get. If that bothers you I'm a little puzzled why. He's the only one other than Mike who knew them in their childhood, long before music was the hub holding them together. Brian does not represent this great musical genius or even a guy Dave wanted to be in a band with, he represents a big brother figure, the guy who taught him how to throw a football, Dennis is the guy who showed him the world, got in trouble with him, and got him laid. Carl is the guy he discovered rock and roll with. Al became friends with Brian many years after David had been a part of the Wilsons lives. You do know Dave moved directly across the street from them in early 1956. Carl was 9, Dennis was 11, and Brian was 13.  Audree and Murry were like another set of parents to him. When i say honorary Wilson my point is that David, to Brian, is family, he goes back in his memory bank to a place and time that was long before there were Pendletones and Beach Boys...he's the kid from across the street that was his younger brother's best friend. Simple.

That's awesome, totally cool. But I still don't know when that has to do with anything.  He was a close friend. And a Beach Boys at one point (and now again today), but I just get the feeling that you are always trying to "legitimize" David all the time, when I don't even think he needs it. He was in the band on the first four albums, and on countless compilations. He chose to leave the band, and they went on to do their best work without him. Would he have made it better? Maybe, who knows. But he didn't, and ended up basically being bar-band level by the mid-'70s until the mid-'90s while producing sub-Eagles soft rock most of the time that generated little interest. Don't get me wrong, I think he is great with The Beach Boys, and some of the Marksmen stuff is cool, but he's not Peter Green or Jimi Hendrix. He was the rhythm guitar player for the early Beach Boys, and a really nice guy, but I think somebody like Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave.

I think you're going off on a tangent that has little to do with the premise of the thread. Great, you think I am too enthusiastic in my effort to "legitimize" David. Got it. You aren't the first. But the premise of the thread is why were Carl and Dennis not missed more in the reunion, and my feeling is that for some fans...when you lose family it helps (a little) to bring back some other (lost) family who has a deep connection to those missing guys. You wrote that "Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave"...so why just not say you think by having Al there it helps make it easier to enjoy a tour without Dennis and Carl. I think that's what we're talking about here.

 

If  Jon is over entusiastic re Dave( and I don't think  he is) it's a fair rebuttal to the countless people who discount his participation at all and only count Al as a Beach Boy

What I don't get is Al being an original BB for singing on 2 songs and playing 4 shows, but Dave is ONLY Al's "replacement" for playing on 5 albums and hundreds of shows before HE QUIT.

 Me personally, the Beach Boys as a living breathing entity died with Dennis and Carl; The "new/reformed group is, well, what they are, And are arguably playing great shows. But they'll never be the ones I grew up loving. And while for most it doesn't matter( I don't think most of the concert-goers would even know if it weren't publicized) it's definitely a different feeling.
Great band on stage/ great performances. Congratulations to people that see them.  
Any appearance of Blondie( who gives a rat's ass) and Ricky would be exciting for only a handful.

Dennis and Carl can never be replaced.  And I think threads that suggest  possibilities of that sort are really fucking stupid  
off my soapbox

[bgas]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

Which reminds me: That's a Great Photo!  Where and when was it taken? 

[adamghost]

I'm not a Jon Stebbins apologist (wink at Jon) but I have often wondered myself if Dave would be a part of this reunion if his book hadn't done so much to illuminate Dave's role in the band and reclaim his part of the legacy.  I doubt it, myself.  It's significant that the Beach Boys themselves never raised much of an objection to David's repositioning and elevation in the band's history, and in fact seem to have welcomed and encouraged it.

[Jim V.]

Okay, lets just look at it this way. When you have bands, people usually recognize the band via one "classic" lineup, maybe two. For this instance I'm gonna use The Beach Boys and Fleetwood Mac. Basically when one thinks of 'The Beach Boys' they think of Brian, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Mike. When one thinks of 'Fleetwood Mac' they think of Lindsey, Stevie, Christine, Mick, and John, even though most of that lineup ain't the originals. Does that mean everybody else that was in these bands is discounted? Absolutely not. Honestly, I'd say that if Al never came back, David would be considered an 'original' Beach Boy. I sure consider him one. He was on the first album and on the cover. Al wasn't, except for one song. I'd say in this case David is to The Beach Boys kinda like a John McVie is to Fleetwood Mac. Not totally an 'original' member (John didn't play the Mac's first show, Dave didn't play on the first single), but they were both on the first album and the first the public really heard of these bands, these were the guys that they saw. However, McVie stuck with his band through today, while Dave decided to leave the next year.

But regardless, Dave left in '63 and the era that truly sticks in the general public and even most music fans memory is the '64 to '67 run. And that includes Al Jardine. So Al gets the higher profile. And Al is looked at as 'classic' and by a technicality, an original. But honestly, who is an 'original' in these bands and whatnot doesn't matter to me. It's who was there when the great music was made. And that's why I have love and respect for Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, David, Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky, because they were all Beach Boys, regardless of 'when', and they all made great music.

[Jon Stebbins]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

Which reminds me: That's a Great Photo!  Where and when was it taken? 

I think this is August 31, 1963 at the L.A. Sports Arena.

[Jon Stebbins]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

Dave's about 6'1" and 165 pounds if that. Long and lean.

[mabewa]

I'm pretty pro-David and think he should be counted as an original, but I'm curious about the statement that he plays on the band's first 5 albums--I've heard this several times.  I'm sure a lot of you have read Keith Badman's book that documents all of the sessions, and if it is to be believed (seems extremely credible), then David fully participated in the band's first 3 albums, and also appears on LDC because of the 4 older songs that were reused.  I don't see any evidence that he was on Shut Down, Volume 2, though.  I haven't read the Jon Stebbins book, by the way, but definitely intend to someday. 

[KittyKat]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

Dave's about 6'1" and 165 pounds if that. Long and lean.

It must be Brian's poor posture that makes him look a tiny bit shorter than Dave these days.  Also, Dave looks enormous next to Al Jardine.  Al is only 5'4", though, if that.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm pretty pro-David and think he should be counted as an original, but I'm curious about the statement that he plays on the band's first 5 albums--I've heard this several times.  I'm sure a lot of you have read Keith Badman's book that documents all of the sessions, and if it is to be believed (seems extremely credible), then David fully participated in the band's first 3 albums, and also appears on LDC because of the 4 older songs that were reused.  I don't see any evidence that he was on Shut Down, Volume 2, though.  I haven't read the Jon Stebbins book, by the way, but definitely intend to someday. 

Do a search on this board and read about how credible Badman's book is. Regarding David, he left the Beach Boys after the "Little Deuce Coupe" LP had been recorded and mastered. He's definitely on the new LDC songs. He also recorded a lot of tracks that were released long after he was gone, for instance he's on "Little Saint Nick" and "Drive-In". When he says he was on five albums its because he believes he's on some of the tracks for at least that many.

[mabewa]

I'm pretty pro-David and think he should be counted as an original, but I'm curious about the statement that he plays on the band's first 5 albums--I've heard this several times.  I'm sure a lot of you have read Keith Badman's book that documents all of the sessions, and if it is to be believed (seems extremely credible), then David fully participated in the band's first 3 albums, and also appears on LDC because of the 4 older songs that were reused.  I don't see any evidence that he was on Shut Down, Volume 2, though.  I haven't read the Jon Stebbins book, by the way, but definitely intend to someday. 

Do a search on this board and read about how credible Badman's book is. Regarding David, he left the Beach Boys after the "Little Deuce Coupe" LP had been recorded and mastered. He's definitely on the new LDC songs. He also recorded a lot of tracks that were released long after he was gone, for instance he's on "Little Saint Nick" and "Drive-In". When he says he was on five albums its because he believes he's on some of the tracks for at least that many.

Thanks for the information.  I'll definitely look for those threads.  So, to your knowledge, are both David and Al on the "new" tracks on LDC?

[Rocky Raccoon]

Even during the years when Carl and Dennis were around, the live band was missing something because Brian was not part of it (and when he rejoined in the late 70s, he was barely part of it).  Brian Wilson is arguably the band's driving force at its peak and now he's in the Beach Boys with a participation he hasn't given in many years.  All but one of the songs on the new album are written by him, the most writing credits he's had on a Beach Boys album since "Love You" and he's playing live, singing leads when the song requires it and doing a pretty good job.  While there's no doubt that the band loses a little bit of something without Carl and Dennis and that they brought a lot to the group in their own way, Brian's presence in this capacity is the band's essence rather than the "brotherhood" and "harmony" (because let's face it, in their heyday, they're was little of that).  And now when you see this band live, you're not only seeing a legendary group, you're also seeing its larger than life leader, and even at the group's peak, there was little chance you would see that.

Rocky, how many shows did you attend between 1965 and 1975? While I will admit that I would have loved to seen Brian tour with the band, I can tell you from the shows that I attended from 1969 through 1975, that those shows were fantastic and exciting, Brian Wilson or not, just mho.

Well, I'm 19 so I was not alive then but I never said they weren't a great live band on their own, I've heard the In Concert LP and I think it's amazing.  I'm saying that through good or bad times, the Beach Boys have always relied on Brian Wilson and having him actually physically present adds a whole other dimension to the group.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm pretty pro-David and think he should be counted as an original, but I'm curious about the statement that he plays on the band's first 5 albums--I've heard this several times.  I'm sure a lot of you have read Keith Badman's book that documents all of the sessions, and if it is to be believed (seems extremely credible), then David fully participated in the band's first 3 albums, and also appears on LDC because of the 4 older songs that were reused.  I don't see any evidence that he was on Shut Down, Volume 2, though.  I haven't read the Jon Stebbins book, by the way, but definitely intend to someday. 

Do a search on this board and read about how credible Badman's book is. Regarding David, he left the Beach Boys after the "Little Deuce Coupe" LP had been recorded and mastered. He's definitely on the new LDC songs. He also recorded a lot of tracks that were released long after he was gone, for instance he's on "Little Saint Nick" and "Drive-In". When he says he was on five albums its because he believes he's on some of the tracks for at least that many.

Thanks for the information.  I'll definitely look for those threads.  So, to your knowledge, are both David and Al on the "new" tracks on LDC?

Yes, There were essentially six Beach Boys from April '63 to Oct. '63. Al is on about four tracks on the Surfer Girl LP along with Dave, Mike, Brian, Dennis and Carl. The LDC LP retains the same six man studio lineup, but Al was not official until after Dave left.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Though Today and Holland are my favorite albums, 61 -63 is my favorite period because The Beach Boys were so young and fresh and rocking. David is all over those first records and he is up there with them rocking hard now and THEY choose to have him up there, not us. That fact should settle any legitimacy arguments.

[Micha]

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4

Say, who photoshopped the stripes off those shirts?!?