B3 Drawbar settings on BB songs

[Iron Horse-Apples]

This techy thread may disappear amongst all the 50th excitement, but what the hey....

Hammond B3. Used on Beach Boys records from Country Fair to Good Vibrations and beyond. The sound is altered by use of drawbars, and also the unique rotating speaker.

I'd quite like those of us who are into this side of things to pool our knowledge and try to pin down the settings used on different songs, that of the organ, and the effects.

I don't have a B3 itself, but I do have the Kontakt Vintage Organs VST, which to me sounds pretty close to the original.

(And if I'm wrong on any of the above details, I have every faith someone will happily correct me. I'll be the first to admit, I'm no expert.)

[b00ts]

This techy thread may disappear amongst all the 50th excitement, but what the hey....

Hammond B3. Used on Beach Boys records from Country Fair to Good Vibrations and beyond. The sound is altered by use of drawbars, and also the unique rotating speaker.

I'd quite like those of us who are into this side of things to pool our knowledge and try to pin down the settings used on different songs, that of the organ, and the effects.

I don't have a B3 itself, but I do have the Kontakt Vintage Organs VST, which to me sounds pretty close to the original.

(And if I'm wrong on any of the above details, I have every faith someone will happily correct me. I'll be the first to admit, I'm no expert.)

Very cool idea, IHA. Looking forward to what people have to say. I am working on some Moog Slim Phatty settings to duplicate the modular sounds in "Sweet Mountain," so I will post those patches for download when I am further along - they will be compatible with the Little Phatty and Slim Phatty synths.

[adamghost]

This reminds me of when I was in a session with Don Randi and Hal Blaine doing a re-recording of "Good Vibrations."  They were in the control room going over charts and I was in the main room with an Ipod and a B-3 trying frantically to match up the sounds.  It was the second time in my life I'd played one and I wanted desperately to look like I knew what I was doing...but to me it was like flying a jet plane!!!  One of the first things I was able to do was turn the whole thing off, and I spent a few minutes trying to figure out what I did. 

It all ended happily, but it was pretty nerve-wracking at the time!  I've got an organ modeler now so it's not as much of a mystery, but kudos to the guys that really can manipulate those things.  It really was an art. Hal Blaine wrote that Bruce Johnston had a particularly good feel for that.

[guitarfool2002]

I love threads like this! From what I've found and read, along with trying on my own through the years, a lot of it is trial and error, just getting a sound which is close and trying out different drawbars, seasoning to taste. I also have heard that some if not many Hammond players are secretive about their drawbar settings, I remember Paul Shaffer who is actually a master historian on B3 sounds has said that some players have flat out refused to reveal their settings when he asked them.

One important thing which I've heard on more than a few classic BB's B3 tracks is the percussion/key click setting, or lack thereof - that can make a huge difference but I'm sure everyone in this thread knows this already... And running through a real mechanical Leslie is crucial, IMO, though I'm sure some non-mechanical simulators can come closer now than before. Any suggestions on that front?

I do have some sample drawbar settings in my library from a few famous players, unfortunately nothing BB's related, but if those would help out let me know and I'll post them when I can.

[Wirestone]

This puts me in mind of the scene in the TLOS documentary where Brian adjusts Darian's Hammond in the studio. Darian is trying these little tweaks, and then Brian reaches over and does some serious adjusting. The organ then sounds really different!

[Iron Horse-Apples]

This reminds me of when I was in a session with Don Randi and Hal Blaine doing a re-recording of "Good Vibrations."  They were in the control room going over charts and I was in the main room with an Ipod and a B-3 trying frantically to match up the sounds.  It was the second time in my life I'd played one and I wanted desperately to look like I knew what I was doing...but to me it was like flying a jet plane!!!  One of the first things I was able to do was turn the whole thing off, and I spent a few minutes trying to figure out what I did.  

It all ended happily, but it was pretty nerve-wracking at the time!  I've got an organ modeler now so it's not as much of a mystery, but kudos to the guys that really can manipulate those things.  It really was an art. Hal Blaine wrote that Bruce Johnston had a particularly good feel for that.

What interests me in Good Vibrations particularly is the effect added later. I'm right in thinking the verse used in the final version was culled from the first session? That filtered effect was not present then. Was this inaugural session  recorded to 3 tracks, with the organ on it's own track? How else would the effect have been added later?

For the drawbar settings themselves, what did you come up with? The percussion knob is on, I think, and there are some slight overtones. Not much bass.

[guitarfool2002]

This reminds me of when I was in a session with Don Randi and Hal Blaine doing a re-recording of "Good Vibrations."  They were in the control room going over charts and I was in the main room with an Ipod and a B-3 trying frantically to match up the sounds.  It was the second time in my life I'd played one and I wanted desperately to look like I knew what I was doing...but to me it was like flying a jet plane!!!  One of the first things I was able to do was turn the whole thing off, and I spent a few minutes trying to figure out what I did. 

It all ended happily, but it was pretty nerve-wracking at the time!  I've got an organ modeler now so it's not as much of a mystery, but kudos to the guys that really can manipulate those things.  It really was an art. Hal Blaine wrote that Bruce Johnston had a particularly good feel for that.

What interests me in Good Vibrations particularly is the effect added later. I'm right in thinking the verse used in the final version was culled from the first session? That filtered effect was not present then. Was this inaugural session  recorded to 3 tracks, with the organ on it's own track? How else would the effect have been added later.

For the drawbar settings themselves, what did you come up with? The percussion knob is on, I think, and there are some slight overtones. Not much bass.

Just thinking that the filtered effect may have come more from the tape than the Hammond track itself, maybe at some point in the mixing and editing process, like that EQ sweep/shift that comes in a few seconds into the first verse.

[adamghost]

This reminds me of when I was in a session with Don Randi and Hal Blaine doing a re-recording of "Good Vibrations."  They were in the control room going over charts and I was in the main room with an Ipod and a B-3 trying frantically to match up the sounds.  It was the second time in my life I'd played one and I wanted desperately to look like I knew what I was doing...but to me it was like flying a jet plane!!!  One of the first things I was able to do was turn the whole thing off, and I spent a few minutes trying to figure out what I did.  

It all ended happily, but it was pretty nerve-wracking at the time!  I've got an organ modeler now so it's not as much of a mystery, but kudos to the guys that really can manipulate those things.  It really was an art. Hal Blaine wrote that Bruce Johnston had a particularly good feel for that.

What interests me in Good Vibrations particularly is the effect added later. I'm right in thinking the verse used in the final version was culled from the first session? That filtered effect was not present then. Was this inaugural session  recorded to 3 tracks, with the organ on it's own track? How else would the effect have been added later?

For the drawbar settings themselves, what did you come up with? The percussion knob is on, I think, and there are some slight overtones. Not much bass.

I honestly don't remember...it's been too long and I had no frame of reference like I do now...I have a Korg CX-3 with a drawbars, I'm no ace at it but I can do a few things that I need it to do.  I do remember I got it relatively close though.

I have played GV live a few times with the CX-3.  Generally I have the higher stops out, the lower ones back a bit, and a fast Leslie.  It's in the ballpark.

[tpesky]

Bruce Johnston was/is a fantastic organ player! Really a shame he doesn't do any of that now...he basically claps.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Right, here is an approximation of the Good Vibrations B3 settings. This is all based on settings that can be changed in the Kontakt Vintage Organs B3.

All upper register.

Drawbar settings -

16' set to 4
5 1/2' set to 3
8' set to 8
4' set to 7
2 2/3' All the way in
2' set to 4
The last three stops remain in

Percussion / Dynamic settings

Percussion: On
Percussion Vol: Soft
Percussion Decay: Slow
Percussion Harmonic: Third

Swell knob: On full

Vibrato settings

Vibrato: On
Speed: Fast

Now I started playing with the Leslie settings. There are two sets of speaker,  setting them out of synch with each other gives The GV organ sound it's wavery, shimmery ethereal sound. I didn't get it quite perfect, on the record it seems to shimmer in time with the music.

Accel Lo: 2 O Clock position
Accel High: 10 O Clock position

Now for the outboard effects

Although at first there seems to be a slight delay, I think in fact it is just a plate reverb, set quite long, and very wet.

With the amplification and miking, I'm no expert, but I think it's being put through an amp with the treble up (at about 2 O Clock) and mid down (at 10 O Clock)

And miked about a foot from the amplifier.

[UK_Surf]

Right, here is an approximation of the Good Vibrations B3 settings. This is all based on settings that can be changed in the Kontakt Vintage Organs B3.

All upper register.

Drawbar settings -

Vibrato settings

Vibrato: On
Speed: Fast

Now I started playing with the Leslie settings. There are two sets of speaker,  setting them out of synch with each other gives The GV organ sound it's wavery, shimmery ethereal sound. I didn't get it quite perfect, on the record it seems to shimmer in time with the music.

Accel Lo: 2 O Clock position
Accel High: 10 O Clock position

Now for the outboard effects

Although at first there seems to be a slight delay, I think in fact it is just a plate reverb, set quite long, and very wet.

With the amplification and miking, I'm no expert, but I think it's being put through an amp with the treble up (at about 2 O Clock) and mid down (at 10 O Clock)

And miked about a foot from the amplifier.

This is ace, thanks for sharing!

Re: the 'filter effect' being mentioned. I think that can be achieved by manipulating the drawbars, but the vibrato/percussion/leslie/rvb settings you mention would mostly account for that, probably along with a bit of volume pedal manipulation.

[guitarfool2002]

Great info!

[seltaeb1012002]

Right, here is an approximation of the Good Vibrations B3 settings. This is all based on settings that can be changed in the Kontakt Vintage Organs B3.

All upper register.

Drawbar settings -

16' set to 4
5 1/2' set to 3
8' set to 8
4' set to 7
2 2/3' All the way in
2' set to 4
The last three stops remain in

Percussion / Dynamic settings

Percussion: On
Percussion Vol: Soft
Percussion Decay: Slow
Percussion Harmonic: Third

Swell knob: On full

Vibrato settings

Vibrato: On
Speed: Fast

Now I started playing with the Leslie settings. There are two sets of speaker,  setting them out of synch with each other gives The GV organ sound it's wavery, shimmery ethereal sound. I didn't get it quite perfect, on the record it seems to shimmer in time with the music.

Accel Lo: 2 O Clock position
Accel High: 10 O Clock position

Now for the outboard effects

Although at first there seems to be a slight delay, I think in fact it is just a plate reverb, set quite long, and very wet.

With the amplification and miking, I'm no expert, but I think it's being put through an amp with the treble up (at about 2 O Clock) and mid down (at 10 O Clock)

And miked about a foot from the amplifier.

Sick! I'm about to try that. Thanks!

[Iron Horse-Apples]

It was pretty close, but not perfect. Please feel free to modify. I also have the Kontakt patch if anyone wants it.

[Sam_BFC]

Great topic.

Adam - is the re-recording that you mention of Good Vibrations available anywhere?  It'd be cool to hear it.

Another interesting point is that for the BWPS remake, the organ sound in the verse is not really much like the original, although this may just be because they wanted to update the sound given that it was a new version of an already properly released song.

Talking of VI organs, an old version of Logic Pro had EVB3 (Logic's B3 sim) presets for Surfin' USA and Good Vibrations I think...I can try and dig them out and post a picture and perhaps a sound clip.

---

On a related topic, I have been thinking about the Gettin' Hungry keyboard/organ sound recently...I love that song...would I be right in saying Brian used his Baldwin for that?  It sure sounds unique compared to most of the organ sounds that Brian produced during that era...could he have used some effect such as ring modulation to get that sound in Gettin' Hungry?  I think it is so cool, whatever it is.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I'm waiting patiently for someone to do a Baldwin VST.
                                               
                                                            And a Regina music box VST.

                                                                                      And a crumhorn VST

[guitarfool2002]

On a related topic, I have been thinking about the Gettin' Hungry keyboard/organ sound recently...I love that song...would I be right in saying Brian used his Baldwin for that?  It sure sounds unique compared to most of the organ sounds that Brian produced during that era...could he have used some effect such as ring modulation to get that sound in Gettin' Hungry?  I think it is so cool, whatever it is.

Sam, I'll say for sure that the sound on GH is 100% Brian's white Baldwin Theater organ, and I'm going out on a limb and assuming that there are no external effects such as a ring modulator. The Baldwin had such a wide range of sounds and stops available, with so many options, that what may sound like something more extensive effect-wise is actually coming from the organ itself.

For years my ears fooled me into thinking Pete Townshend was using all kinds of glorious old analog synth filters, arpeggiators, modulation effects, etc. on Who's Next, especially the pulsing tones on "Baba O'Reilly". Then I find out the truth, that some of those sounds I thought were Townshend's synths were actually coming from his home organ, using things like a "Banjo" stop to create those textures. Damn! After that I became fascinated with those kinds of sounds, and never underestimating the effects possible by just holding down one key and dialing in some weird organic stop.

I'd say in the case of Gettin Hungry, we can compare the studio sounds with what is heard live in Hawaii, since it is the same organ Brian had shipped to Hawaii for the concerts from his home studio. In Hawaii we can be almost 100% sure there were no effects added since it was just the organ on stage with the band, and if the sounds heard at those shows are the same or even similar, that's the proof.

And one thing to add is Brian's sometime use of the bass pedals on that Baldwin, specifically on "Fall Breaks", where he played them with his hands. Some of the low textures on various tracks could have come from the pedals as well, not that he played them with his feet necessarily, but perhaps added as an overdub later.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Yes, "Baba O'Reilly" uses the marimba stop, on the Lowrey organ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGP0sxABITs

There are also tsome very familiar sounds that shipped with the Mellotron,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61JALJJBiVo

[guitarfool2002]

Yes, "Baba O'Reilly" uses the marimba stop, on the Lowrey organ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGP0sxABITs

There are also tsome very familiar sounds that shipped with the Mellotron,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61JALJJBiVo

Have you heard that original Lowery demo record clip where they feature the "Banjo" sound, and then play "Swanee River" or something similar on the organ, and it's the "Townshend Sound" front and center? That was a major game-changer for me! If it's not online I have an mp3 of it.