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Author Topic: New York Times comment piece about The Beach Boys' politics  (Read 9539 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2012, 07:47:06 AM »

The current American meaning of the word 'liberal' is different from the current European meaning of the word 'liberal' is different from the 19th century European meaning of the word.

I'm not sure I entirely see the differences as you describe them. To a certain degree, the folk usage of these terms have some differences and these differences are a consequence of other ideologies at work that results in a purposeful perversion of the term.

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And liberalism isn't a single ideology, but a grouping of many ideologies -- even just taking the European definition of the term (with which I am more familiar), any term that encompasses John Stuart Mill, Friedrich Hayek, John Maynard Keynes, William Beveridge, Cyril Smith, Karl Popper, the Liberator Collective and Isiah Berlin has to be a fairly broad, rather than narrow, term. All those people have shared principles, and shared ideological roots, but they were expressed pragmatically in *very* different ways.

I agree.

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And all ideologies change. There is, for example, no Christian church I know of whose beliefs now are identical to the beliefs of the same church a century ago -- their core values may be the same, but their emphasis, and small points of nuance, adapt to a changing world. The same goes for environmentalism (thirty years ago environmentalists would have called for an end to nuclear power, now most see it as a better option than fossil fuels), socialism, conservatism, libertarianism or whatever. They all start from a set of principles and beliefs, but the consequences of those principles change as the world changes  (or the ideology disappears altogether).

Again, I don't see the ideologies adapting -- mostly because they can't. I see in some of those cases, one ideology coming into conflict with another/other ideology(ies). Yes, people change and people change their views but worldviews are not people.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:52:55 AM by rockandroll » Logged
BillA
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« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2012, 10:21:11 AM »

Thank goodness that the Beach Boys never used their music to preach their politics. 

While it is important for artists to take there art seriously it rarely works out well when they take themselves too seriously.  Outside of Marvin Gaye, I can't think anybody who benefited artisitcally by melding their politics with their art.


Gil Scott Heron? The Clash? Public Enemy? Bob Dylan? Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five? REM? The Dixie Chicks?

GSH, The Clash, PE, etc. melded politics and music throughout their career.  They didn't decide to turn political one day.  Politics was part of their point.   

The Dixie Chicks are example A1 of politics detstroying their art.  They have not been relevent in years. 

The best messages are those that are vetween the lines.  Take "Wonderful" for example.  I have always interpret\ted that as a rejection of the counter culture, however, ten different people might get ten different meanings from it.

 that is cool - Lennon's "Sometime in New York City"is crap.


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In 1974 Mike Love's concept album Endless Summer ignited a second generation of Beach Boys fans and stirred a comeback that rocked the music world.
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2012, 10:29:20 AM »

GSH, The Clash, PE, etc. melded politics and music throughout their career.  They didn't decide to turn political one day.  Politics was part of their point.  

Regardless, your point was that politics and art couldn't be creatively melded by anyone other than Marvin Gaye. You said nothing about when they melded them.

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Lennon's "Sometime in New York City"is crap.

What about Imagine which is far more political than anything on Sometime in New York City and so far one of the most enduring pop songs of the 20th century?

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The best messages are those that are vetween the lines.  Take "Wonderful" for example.  I have always interpret\ted that as a rejection of the counter culture, however, ten different people might get ten different meanings from it.

Given that Van Dyke Parks was a fairly vibrant member of the counter-culture movement and appears to agree with a great deal of their point, I would say that your interpretation is groundless. But, yes, it does have a great lyric.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:31:36 AM by rockandroll » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2012, 10:37:20 AM »

The Dixie Chicks are example A1 of politics detstroying their art.  They have not been relevent in years. 

No, they've just been on hiatus. The album they did before that was a massive hit and went to #1 and was released several years after they "went political."
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