The Autotune Thread

[b00ts]

For Christ's sake, Bill, he's singing flat notes like crazy. Can't you hear those? Those are plain bum notes; they are not pitch-corrected.

Please link a Youtube video, with the precise time at which you hear a flat note which is not a half-step (or whole-step) off, and the word he's singing when you hear this, and I'll get my guitar tuner ready,

For instance, the video you linked, when he sings "how come you ARE".

BTW, I was at the JazzFest show. This was right after the autotune discussion got going. For that reason, I listened very intently at the venue trying to spot said effect, and did not detect anything similar to the wobbling and funny sounds that emerged in the videos. I mean that I did not detect anything funny in any of the songs he sang. Of course his voice was processed, like everybody else's. But not pitch-corrected. Perhaps once everybody on this board gets to see the BBs live, this discussion will end.
[/quote]
Lenny, you don't hear the pitch correction. That's cool. I wish I couldn't hear it. Regardless, it is still a relatively minor thing for me personally - Brian, Mike, Al, Dave, and Bruce are onstage together playing a pretty damn good setlist with a superb backing band. That's what matters.

People will continue to talk about the pitch correction because this is a board for discussion about all aspects of The Beach Boys, live and in-studio. However, there is no reason to let the pitch correction (or lack of same, in your view and the view of several others) put a damper on the reunion. It's all good, baby...

[Awesoman]

Ugh, it's also on the 26th show. It's not as bad, but it's still pretty damn bad.

Seems to be.  Darn.

Oh well, looks like it's going to be an interesting tour!

ur so mad ;(

Is it really so hard to see why this upsets people? That the very presence of something like this totally cheapens the whole "live concert" thing? That Brian would probably actually sound *better* without something they've made a conscience decision to use to make him sound "better"? That it's a slap in the face to Brian's talents, Brian as a person, and fans? That it makes him look pathetic and incapable to people who hear it and don't know any better?

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's experience of going - they've already been there, I'm sincerely glad they had a good time. But this is the sort of thing that makes people *not* buy tickets.

I dunno about that--I would even wager that most people probably wouldn't notice that pitch correction is being implemented.  Something tells me that most Beach Boys fans probably don't listen to a lot of T-Pain.  When Paul McCartney put out his most recent live release, Good Evening New York City, I remember debating on a McCartney forum over the obvious use of Autotune on all of the tracks.  A lot of people on that forum didn't believe it was there since their ears couldn't detect it.  But if you know what pitch correction is, you simply can't miss it. 

Can't say I'm all that offended or bothered that they're using pitch correction for Brian's vocals.  It didn't detract my enjoyment of the concert.  He simply does not have a strong voice due to age and all his other problems.  And he was never a good live performer.  Just be glad he's up there on the stage at all. 

[Dave Modny]

So that leaves OCA and IJWMFTT as the only non pitch-corrected items in the BW solo oeuvre.

Well, from an engineer's mouth who worked on OCA, the vocals on that album were tuned up as well. He mentions putting them through a sampler -- which most likely would've been using the pitch wheel on either a Fairlight or a Synclavier in that era  -- as well as using multiple takes and punch-ins.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

[b00ts]

So that leaves OCA and IJWMFTT as the only non pitch-corrected items in the BW solo oeuvre.

Well, from an engineer's mouth who worked on OCA, the vocals on that album were tuned up as well. He mentions putting them through a sampler -- which most likely would've been using the pitch wheel on either a Fairlight or a Synclavier in that era  -- as well as using multiple takes and punch-ins.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

I would imagine that just about every Beach Boys and Brian Wilson album uses multiple takes and punch-ins. The use of Synclavier/Fairlight for tuning is interesting though. Thanks Dave.

Edit: Now I see what you mean, punching in line by line.

[Dave Modny]

So that leaves OCA and IJWMFTT as the only non pitch-corrected items in the BW solo oeuvre.

Well, from an engineer's mouth who worked on OCA, the vocals on that album were tuned up as well. He mentions putting them through a sampler -- which most likely would've been using the pitch wheel on either a Fairlight or a Synclavier in that era  -- as well as using multiple takes and punch-ins.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

I would imagine that just about every Beach Boys and Brian Wilson album uses multiple takes and punch-ins. The use of Synclavier/Fairlight for tuning is interesting though. Thanks Dave.

Edit: Now I see what you mean, punching in line by line.

Indeed. Punching and comp'ing are commonplace in record production. I just wanted to point out that, on top of that, his vocals were also manually "tuned up" using a sampler/pitch wheel for that particular record

[b00ts]

So that leaves OCA and IJWMFTT as the only non pitch-corrected items in the BW solo oeuvre.

Well, from an engineer's mouth who worked on OCA, the vocals on that album were tuned up as well. He mentions putting them through a sampler -- which most likely would've been using the pitch wheel on either a Fairlight or a Synclavier in that era  -- as well as using multiple takes and punch-ins.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

I would imagine that just about every Beach Boys and Brian Wilson album uses multiple takes and punch-ins. The use of Synclavier/Fairlight for tuning is interesting though. Thanks Dave.

Edit: Now I see what you mean, punching in line by line.

Indeed. Punching and comp'ing are commonplace in record production. I just wanted to point out that, on top of that, his vocals were also manually "tuned up" using a sampler/pitch wheel for that particular record

Very cool post. I had no idea that OCA was recorded over a period of three years. It seemed like a "one-and-done" sort of deal, but in retrospect, it must have been an important time in Brian's life - being newly independent and working on a record with Van Dyke. It's amazing how far he's come.

As for the pitch correction... I never would have guessed! I suppose the manner in which they did it, whilst much lower-tech and time-consuming, yielded decent results, much like "One for the Boys."

[Dave Modny]

So that leaves OCA and IJWMFTT as the only non pitch-corrected items in the BW solo oeuvre.

Well, from an engineer's mouth who worked on OCA, the vocals on that album were tuned up as well. He mentions putting them through a sampler -- which most likely would've been using the pitch wheel on either a Fairlight or a Synclavier in that era  -- as well as using multiple takes and punch-ins.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

I would imagine that just about every Beach Boys and Brian Wilson album uses multiple takes and punch-ins. The use of Synclavier/Fairlight for tuning is interesting though. Thanks Dave.

Edit: Now I see what you mean, punching in line by line.

Indeed. Punching and comp'ing are commonplace in record production. I just wanted to point out that, on top of that, his vocals were also manually "tuned up" using a sampler/pitch wheel for that particular record

Very cool post. I had no idea that OCA was recorded over a period of three years. It seemed like a "one-and-done" sort of deal, but in retrospect, it must have been an important time in Brian's life - being newly independent and working on a record with Van Dyke. It's amazing how far he's come.

As for the pitch correction... I never would have guessed! I suppose the manner in which they did it, whilst much lower-tech and time-consuming, yielded decent results, much like "One for the Boys."

I thought that Gearslutz thread was most illuminating as well. In fact, I saved all the text from it on my 'puter several years ago...lol.

The Orange Crate Art engineering assistant, while not afraid to acknowledge Brian's vocal shortcomings -- his vocal control and pitch issues -- and what was needed to get things up to snuff on the record, truly seemed in awe of his overall creative abilities, as well as working with VDP too. That is, it wasn't just some hatchet piece. He was very diplomatic and informative.

[Autotune]

For Christ's sake, Bill, he's singing flat notes like crazy. Can't you hear those? Those are plain bum notes; they are not pitch-corrected.

Please link a Youtube video, with the precise time at which you hear a flat note which is not a half-step (or whole-step) off, and the word he's singing when you hear this, and I'll get my guitar tuner ready,

For instance, the video you linked, when he sings "how come you ARE".

BTW, I was at the JazzFest show. This was right after the autotune discussion got going. For that reason, I listened very intently at the venue trying to spot said effect, and did not detect anything similar to the wobbling and funny sounds that emerged in the videos. I mean that I did not detect anything funny in any of the songs he sang. Of course his voice was processed, like everybody else's. But not pitch-corrected. Perhaps once everybody on this board gets to see the BBs live, this discussion will end.

[/quote]
Lenny, you don't hear the pitch correction. That's cool. I wish I couldn't hear it. Regardless, it is still a relatively minor thing for me personally - Brian, Mike, Al, Dave, and Bruce are onstage together playing a pretty damn good setlist with a superb backing band. That's what matters.

People will continue to talk about the pitch correction because this is a board for discussion about all aspects of The Beach Boys, live and in-studio. However, there is no reason to let the pitch correction (or lack of same, in your view and the view of several others) put a damper on the reunion. It's all good, baby...
[/quote]

Thanks boots.
How many people have attended this tour so far? 60,000? Shouldn't we be facing a major scandal if Brian sounded in the venues like he does in those videos?

[LostArt]

How many people have attended this tour so far? 60,000? Shouldn't we be facing a major scandal if Brian sounded in the venues like he does in those videos?

That's what makes this whole argument pointless.  I don't care what people think know they hear on these recordings.  I'm going to go to a show and listen to The Beach Boys in person.  With my ears.  And I'll hear what the sound tech is hearing. With his/her ears.  And I'll be very, very happy that it will not sound anything like these terrible audience recordings.  There's a reason why officially released live albums don't use recordings made by random audience members, using miniature recording devices with tiny mics, that do not in any way represent what's actually being heard in the venue by people who are listening directly to the sound coming out of the speakers with...umm...their ears.   

[anazgnos]

There's a reason why officially released live albums don't use recordings made by random audience members, using miniature recording devices with tiny mics, that do not in any way represent what's actually being heard in the venue by people who are listening directly to the sound coming out of the speakers with...umm...their ears.

It's cool that you don't care about live bootlegs or whatever and are neither aware nor curious about what's possible or available, but you're just talking a bunch of nonsense.  If your entire argument against autotune is that every audience recording must present a grossly distorted view of what the show sounds like, you should probably just back away on that one.  If I showed you a picture of Brian wearing a red shirt, you might insist that we can't draw any conclusions about what color Brian's shirt is because cameras only have tiny lenses that can't possibly capture what people can see with their own eyes. 

Besides which many, many officially released live albums were recorded from the audience with amateur gear.  

[ontor pertawst]

Pretty sure that was professionally recorded. You're thinking of Live at Max's Kansas City. Or The Quine Tapes.

[anazgnos]

Now that you mention it some of the above album was from multitrack, but a major chunk of it was from an audience tape from the End of Cole Ave. in Dallas.  And, the bootleg is widely regarded as sounding better than the officially released version, for having less generational loss.   So yeah, all three of those were largely audience tapes.

[LostArt]

There's a reason why officially released live albums don't use recordings made by random audience members, using miniature recording devices with tiny mics, that do not in any way represent what's actually being heard in the venue by people who are listening directly to the sound coming out of the speakers with...umm...their ears.

It's cool that you don't care about live bootlegs or whatever and are neither aware nor curious about what's possible or available, but you're just talking a bunch of nonsense.

Nonsense?  Not to me.  I do like listening to some amateur recordings to listen to the songs and the performance, but as sonic documents they're less than ideal.

If your entire argument against autotune is that every audience recording must present a grossly distorted view of what the show sounds like, you should probably just back away on that one.

I have not once stated that no auto tune or pitch correction is being applied to any particular voice.  My argument has always been that it's just too difficult to tell for certain from these recordings.  Not that it matters.  I've heard that the mix is just fine for the great majority of the folks in the venues, and since that's where I'll be listening, I'm cool. 

Besides which many, many officially released live albums were recorded from the audience with amateur gear.  

Well, they're fine for listening to a performance for the sake of listening to a performance.  But if trying to determine exactly what effects or processing is being applied to a particular channel on the mixing board, they're useless.

[b00ts]

For Christ's sake, Bill, he's singing flat notes like crazy. Can't you hear those? Those are plain bum notes; they are not pitch-corrected.

Please link a Youtube video, with the precise time at which you hear a flat note which is not a half-step (or whole-step) off, and the word he's singing when you hear this, and I'll get my guitar tuner ready,

For instance, the video you linked, when he sings "how come you ARE".

BTW, I was at the JazzFest show. This was right after the autotune discussion got going. For that reason, I listened very intently at the venue trying to spot said effect, and did not detect anything similar to the wobbling and funny sounds that emerged in the videos. I mean that I did not detect anything funny in any of the songs he sang. Of course his voice was processed, like everybody else's. But not pitch-corrected. Perhaps once everybody on this board gets to see the BBs live, this discussion will end.

Lenny, you don't hear the pitch correction. That's cool. I wish I couldn't hear it. Regardless, it is still a relatively minor thing for me personally - Brian, Mike, Al, Dave, and Bruce are onstage together playing a pretty damn good setlist with a superb backing band. That's what matters.

People will continue to talk about the pitch correction because this is a board for discussion about all aspects of The Beach Boys, live and in-studio. However, there is no reason to let the pitch correction (or lack of same, in your view and the view of several others) put a damper on the reunion. It's all good, baby...
[/quote]

Thanks boots.
How many people have attended this tour so far? 60,000? Shouldn't we be facing a major scandal if Brian sounded in the venues like he does in those videos?
[/quote]
That's exactly what people here are worried about.

[Cam Mott]

I don't know if anything is being auto tuned or not but no one is taking up the OGoldin challenge. Seems like a sciencey way to approach it.

I haven't been following this very closely but am I wrong that some are hearing something on fan recordings that some in the audiences didn't hear at the live performance of the same audible product? 

[guitarfool2002]

I don't know if anything is being auto tuned or not but no one is taking up the OGoldin challenge. Seems like a sciencey way to approach it.

I haven't been following this very closely but am I wrong that some are hearing something on fan recordings that some in the audiences didn't hear at the live performance of the same audible product? 

The "challenge" will probably do more to reveal the shortcomings of the way the show was recorded by the audience member, it wouldn't do much for figuring out what was going through the mixing board then through the PA that night.

You are not wrong on the second point. The only way to end this once and for all is to actually go to a show and hear the feed of the live signal which is going into the PA.

[Cam Mott]

Or ask the sound guys for the tour.

[guitarfool2002]

Or ask the sound guys for the tour.

If it were only that simple! I think it may be near the "grassy knoll" stage where no matter what they say the debate will still rage on.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Now that you mention it some of the above album was from multitrack, but a major chunk of it was from an audience tape from the End of Cole Ave. in Dallas.  And, the bootleg is widely regarded as sounding better than the officially released version, for having less generational loss.   So yeah, all three of those were largely audience tapes.

And the version of Rock N Roll on that album and one of the versions of Heroin (an extra track on the separate: parts 1 n 2 CD versions) were actually taken from the Quine tapes!

[send me a picture and i'll tell you]

For instance, the video you linked, when he sings "how come you ARE". Bs live, this discussion will end.
[/quote]

Here ya go, Lenny...WAV files!

http://www.mediafire.com/?5rx8y0yvpcabd3v

This is that very spot, slowed down 66%.  Granted, there are digital artifacts, but notice that Brian's voice shifts in rapid half-steps, without any "slide" between. And even with digital artifacts, you'd expect it to settle between notes from time to time, but no, it's always one of the 12 definable pitches of the Western octave.

I'm hearing the song in F major. On the words "How come you are?", I hear the following pitches consecutively:

how: g - g# - g (should be g)

come: d (unwavering) (d is correct)
you: d - d# - e - f - e (should be slide from d to f)

are: e -c# - b - c - rapid flutter between c & b (should be f - d - c, all slid together)

To prove that it's not the recorder or Audacity causing this, here's the same section from a BW solo show:

the original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKMxVnzerug

slowed down 66% (from approximately  the 40-48-second point in the video):
http://www.mediafire.com/?kfspbgko35vivc5

Now there's sliding between the notes, as opposed to the stair-stepping effect on the first example.

Tah-freaking-DAH.  It's pitch correction, folks.

[OGoldin]

You win, Spil.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I did the same thing on something without pitch correction, but used various other VST plug-ins, and the same thing happened. That's not a proof that there was pitch correction used, just digital effects.

[18thofMay]

I did the same thing on something without pitch correction, but used various other VST plug-ins, and the same thing happened. That's not a proof that there was pitch correction used, just digital effects.

This^^^^^

[send me a picture and i'll tell you]

I did the same thing on something without pitch correction, but used various other VST plug-ins, and the same thing happened. That's not a proof that there was pitch correction used, just digital effects.

This^^^^^

But pitch has been modified, in a way that it stairsteps through pre-defined pitches.  If THAT's not a product of pitch correction, I don't know what is...

[Autotune]

I did the same thing on something without pitch correction, but used various other VST plug-ins, and the same thing happened. That's not a proof that there was pitch correction used, just digital effects.

This^^^^^

But pitch has been modified, in a way that it stairsteps through pre-defined pitches.  If THAT's not a product of pitch correction, I don't know what is...

I hear what you hear, Sir.

I still wonder why and if this does not sound like this in the venue. About 70 thousand people have heard the live shows, many of them enthusiastic fans that deaf-happy to be therer, others not so much, and among them professional music writers. Apparently none of the guys that made any of these recordings heard anything funny live. Had this half-step sliding and wobbling taken place before 140.000 ears, this should be MAJOR scandal already. But it's just a topic in a die-hard fan forum.