Other groups' Unsurpassed Masters / Sea of Tunes?

[orange22]

I don't need to tell many of you, but the Unsurpassed Masters / Sea of Tunes volumes are an absolutely incredible listen (or so people say, not that I've heard them myself...). The way you can hear songs taking shape, and how Brian and the musicians (and the other Beach Boys on vocal sessions) interacted, just conjures so many superlatives in my mind that I can't list them all. Suffice to say, the fact that these recordings are available to us is mind-blowing (and certainly an annoyance to the band, but that's another story).

Which leads me to my actual question: do any other bands/artists have comparable outtakes? I've heard a few from the Beatles, but they're much more limited; just a few clips here and there, not full sessions for a song. I've tried searching for others without success, though I did read somewhere that Elvis supposedly has some sessions out there. Does anyone have any insights?

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

 

[Jason]

The closest would probably be Elvis. Pretty much everything the man recorded that still exists is out there somewhere. The main difference is that RCA releases his outtakes in generous portions, and have since the early 1980s.

The Beatles' stuff doesn't really come close, except for the Get Back sessions, of course.

[guitarfool2002]

I disagree a bit with the Beatles outtakes, mainly because prior to Anthology there were some spectacular releases like Unsurpassed Masters, Ultra Rare Trax, Acetates, and various other studio sessions scattered about. There were some long strings of multiple takes for songs like "I Saw Her Standing There", "Strawberry Fields", "Help", etc. where you could hear them running through take after take and fine-tuning the song, not to mention some funny mistakes and studio/control room backchat. But I will agree and say the Beach Boys library of such sessions is much more complete, much more organized, and a much better "fly on the wall" experience than the average Beatles disc used to be back in the day.

I never got too much into the Get Back-Let It Be material because it wasn't capturing the process of The Beatles recording in the studio as much as a film session which was set up so it looked like they were recording in the studio. The interaction wasn't the same. Although when it did move out of the hangar and back into actual studios, it got a bit better.

[JanBerryFarm]

I wouldn't know why the SOT discs would be an annoyance to the Beach Boys. It's obvious that the band members (Totten, Foskett etc) all use them.

I mentioned them to David Leaf a few years ago, and he just smiled and shrugged. 

[Mikie]

I disagree a bit with the Beatles outtakes, mainly because prior to Anthology there were some spectacular releases like Unsurpassed Masters, Ultra Rare Trax, Acetates, and various other studio sessions scattered about. There were some long strings of multiple takes for songs like "I Saw Her Standing There", "Strawberry Fields", "Help", etc. where you could hear them running through take after take and fine-tuning the song, not to mention some funny mistakes and studio/control room backchat. But I will agree and say the Beach Boys library of such sessions is much more complete, much more organized, and a much better "fly on the wall" experience than the average Beatles disc used to be back in the day.

Agreed. For fans that couldn't get enough, we had the Beatles "Back Track" series, The "Unsurpassed Masters" sessions box sets, "Ultra Rare Tracks" boxes, "Acetates", "Contol Room Monitor Mixes", the 3 "Anthology" CD sets, "Get Back Journals" and "Day By Day" "Twikenham", "Abbey Rd.", and now the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

[Doo Dah]

Agreed. For fans that couldn't get enough, we had the Beatles "Back Track" series, The "Unsurpassed Masters" sessions box sets, "Ultra Rare Tracks" boxes, "Acetates", "Contol Room Monitor Mixes", the 3 "Anthology" CD sets, "Get Back Journals" and "Day By Day" "Twikenham", "Abbey Rd.", and now the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

72 DISCS? Didn't know about that one.

Somewhere, Neil Young is thinking..."I could do better than that..."

[orange22]

I disagree a bit with the Beatles outtakes, mainly because prior to Anthology there were some spectacular releases like Unsurpassed Masters, Ultra Rare Trax, Acetates, and various other studio sessions scattered about. There were some long strings of multiple takes for songs like "I Saw Her Standing There", "Strawberry Fields", "Help", etc. where you could hear them running through take after take and fine-tuning the song, not to mention some funny mistakes and studio/control room backchat. But I will agree and say the Beach Boys library of such sessions is much more complete, much more organized, and a much better "fly on the wall" experience than the average Beatles disc used to be back in the day.

Agreed. For fans that couldn't get enough, we had the Beatles "Back Track" series, The "Unsurpassed Masters" sessions box sets, "Ultra Rare Tracks" boxes, "Acetates", "Contol Room Monitor Mixes", the 3 "Anthology" CD sets, "Get Back Journals" and "Day By Day" "Twikenham", "Abbey Rd.", and now the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

There is certainly a lot of variety in Beatles outtakes, but it's mostly bits and pieces of lots of different tracks. You don't often get all, or nearly all, of the takes for a song, except for a few cases that guitarfool pointed out. Even the edited versions on the Pet Sounds box set are more than you can get for many (any?) Beatles songs.

The Real Beach Boys, is there any particularly interesting material for Elvis that you'd recommend? I lean towards his early years, but would be interested in hearing about anything that's worthwhile.

[Jason]

As far as Elvis goes, RCA has released a lot of his outtakes. Pretty much anything from 1954-58 is worth hearing. The 1960 Elvis Is Back/His Hand In Mine sessions are great. The 1966-68 country/blues/gospel sessions are great as well, mainly to hear a rejuvenated Elvis singing stuff he wants to sing after years of shitty movies and soundtracks. The 1969 American Sound sessions are required listening. The 1970 Nashville sessions that made up That's The Way It Is and Elvis Country are required, too.

RCA has released much of the material from all of these sessions, but the bootlegs still catch a few nuggets that RCA hasn't put out. I don't ever see RCA putting out take 1 of U.S. Male with the impromptu "ball of a big hairy coon" version of The Prisoner's Song.

[Mikie]

Agreed. For fans that couldn't get enough, we had the Beatles "Back Track" series, The "Unsurpassed Masters" sessions box sets, "Ultra Rare Tracks" boxes, "Acetates", "Contol Room Monitor Mixes", the 3 "Anthology" CD sets, "Get Back Journals" and "Day By Day" "Twikenham", "Abbey Rd.", and now the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

72 DISCS? Didn't know about that one.

Somewhere, Neil Young is thinking..."I could do better than that..."   

Yeah, lookit this sombitch, Doo Dah. 62 CD's and 10 DVD's.  Saw one on Ebay for 735 plus change.  I'm sure it's stuff that's already out there. Nice to have all in one place though, eh?

http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-The-Complete-Recording-Sessions-Anthology-Boxed-Set/release/3498059

Don't think Neil or Dylan or Hendrix or Zep or Floyd or anybody else have the same kinda bootleg studio sessions stuff as The Beatles & The Boys. There's a few things from the Elvis Sun sessions, but nothing like we have with the Unsurpassed Masters tracks. Not everything is on the Sea Of Tunes boots, either. There's a few things scattered, like on Capitol Punishment. To me, SOT is the best - you have some interesting talking between instrumental and vocal takes and instructions from Brian and the Engineers, and just a lot more songs and more takes and mistakes and do-overs. Most of it is pristine quality (like most of the Beatles sessions stuff).

Orange 22, don't forget to check out the entire Dumb Angel studio/live series!

[JohnMill]

I don't think any band has ever been as comprehensively bootlegged as have The Beach Boys.  A lot of that is just plain due to dumb luck or good fortune on the part of collectors given that so many complete (or near complete) session tapes leaked out during the making of "An American Band".  That in enough of itself is very unusual.  For example nearly all of The Beatles' outtakes in existence come from one source and that is the preparation of "The Abbey Road Video Show 1983" which during the preparation of that presentation the tapes that were being screened for possible inclusion were allegedly copied offsite and then returned to the vaults unnoticed.  This is why for the most part the only Beatles outtakes that circulate (outside of what was released on the "Anthology" series or were facilitated by the ROCK BAND video game) pertain to most of the material found on "Past Masters Volume 1 & 2".  There are very few outtakes that circulate that revolve around album tracks.  The "Get Back" sessions of course are the exception to that rule, but those are sourced from Nagra reels that have apparently been in collectors' hands since the seventies but took over three decades to leak out in full.

Also something else to consider about The Beatles and that is for years collectors were nickle and dimed by the bootleg labels who initially did not release all the recordings they had.  Instead they compiled sets such as "Unsurpassed Masters" which gave fans an overview of rarities but were basically just compiled at the whim of a bootlegger without any attempt to present the recordings in their most complete and definitive context.  It was only with the re-release of these rarities on sets over the past decade (such as the much heralded "Deluxe Edition" series) that collectors finally got sets that at least somewhat resembled the SOT series.

As for other artists, there are a few from the seventies that have quite definitive sets as far as they pertain to the artist in question in terms of quality and depth but not as comprehensive as the SOT series.

[guitarfool2002]

There is also the issue of the changes which happened in the recording process itself, and how that incredible process we can hear on certain studio session tapes from the 60's changed when more tracks became available. So the kind of thing that got many of us addicted to hearing this stuff, that studio chatter back and forth, wasn't as much a part of the process.

I listened to some Sinatra sessions featuring the Wrecking Crew - those times when Frank went with guys like Hal, Tommy, and Glen because they were part of the hit-making machine of that era. I wasn't disappointed but it wasn't as exciting to hear the musicians playing several takes of the same arrangement, and with a few minor exceptions there wasn't near the amount (or style) of banter on the studio floor or from the control room. Same with some Elvis sessions, I was expecting more but in reality a lot of it seemed to be the band running through the same take over and over with little variety or little change involving banter between the musicians. Too much of the control room talk on other artists' sessions was the engineer slating the track number before a take.

(Although the Doors box set offered a nice teaser for some neat sessions to be heard. I'd like to hear more of that stuff, actually.)

With Brian's sessions, you hear the song develop and you hear the people there interacting with each other. That was Brian's working method, we get to hear it, it's incredible. I say this not knowing exactly how many people may be sitting on amazing sessions from "Band X" with similar events captured on tape, but beyond that a lot of similar sessions aren't as compelling - essential for fans, but not as compelling. I like to hear the process and not just take after take of the same arrangement.

[Catbirdman]

the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

Are there any bonus tracks?

[guitarfool2002]

the totally bitchin' Beatles COMPLETE RECORDING SESSIONS ANTHOLOGY 72 CD box.

Are there any bonus tracks?

Carnival Of Light?   

[JohnMill]

There is also the issue of the changes which happened in the recording process itself, and how that incredible process we can hear on certain studio session tapes from the 60's changed when more tracks became available. So the kind of thing that got many of us addicted to hearing this stuff, that studio chatter back and forth, wasn't as much a part of the process.

With Brian's sessions, you hear the song develop and you hear the people there interacting with each other. That was Brian's working method, we get to hear it, it's incredible. I say this not knowing exactly how many people may be sitting on amazing sessions from "Band X" with similar events captured on tape, but beyond that a lot of similar sessions aren't as compelling - essential for fans, but not as compelling. I like to hear the process and not just take after take of the same arrangement.

Again I think it's just a case of being very fortunate regarding what has survived more than anything else.  As Beach Boys fans we can find stuff to gripe about as well as I believe the SOT series attests to there were far fewer outtakes from the vocal sessions when compared to the tracking sessions.  Some of this may have had to do with what was available to the bootleggers to copy but as we know other things factor in as well such as tapes going lost or never being preserved to begin with. 

Honestly if we are talking about the sixties, I think the real loss to the collecting community at large at least in my opinion is the fact that no session work for The Mamas And Papas survived the years.  From the small clips we do have their session work would likely be the top contender for those resembling what went on with The Beach Boys in terms of how they recorded their records.  Whomever gave the high sign to purge/destroy those tapes at least in my opinion really committed a cardinal sin in terms of what we are discussing here.

I believe as you progress from the sixties into the seventies artists became a lot more aware of preserving every hiss and pop they recorded in the studio instead of preserving tape which seemed to be a practice that occurred far more often in the sixties.  They also seemed to be far more diligent in storing their material which resulted in far less lost or misplaced tapes.  Of course a biproduct of this was that security got a bit tighter as well and with the exception of some of the more obvious leaks which we've already discussed fewer outtakes emerged from the top artists of the seventies and onward as they did from their sixties counterparts.

[guitarfool2002]

There is also the issue of the changes which happened in the recording process itself, and how that incredible process we can hear on certain studio session tapes from the 60's changed when more tracks became available. So the kind of thing that got many of us addicted to hearing this stuff, that studio chatter back and forth, wasn't as much a part of the process.

With Brian's sessions, you hear the song develop and you hear the people there interacting with each other. That was Brian's working method, we get to hear it, it's incredible. I say this not knowing exactly how many people may be sitting on amazing sessions from "Band X" with similar events captured on tape, but beyond that a lot of similar sessions aren't as compelling - essential for fans, but not as compelling. I like to hear the process and not just take after take of the same arrangement.

Again I think it's just a case of being very fortunate regarding what has survived more than anything else.  As Beach Boys fans we can find stuff to gripe about as well as I believe the SOT series attests to there were far fewer outtakes from the vocal sessions when compared to the tracking sessions.  Some of this may have had to do with what was available to the bootleggers to copy but as we know other things factor in as well such as tapes going lost or never being preserved to begin with. 

Honestly if we are talking about the sixties, I think the real loss to the collecting community at large at least in my opinion is the fact that no session work for The Mamas And Papas survived the years.  From the small clips we do have their session work would likely be the top contender for those resembling what went on with The Beach Boys in terms of how they recorded their records.  Whomever gave the high sign to purge/destroy those tapes at least in my opinion really committed a cardinal sin in terms of what we are discussing here.

I believe as you progress from the sixties into the seventies artists became a lot more aware of preserving every hiss and pop they recorded in the studio instead of preserving tape which seemed to be a practice that occurred far more often in the sixties.  They also seemed to be far more diligent in storing their material which resulted in far less lost or misplaced tapes.  Of course a biproduct of this was that security got a bit tighter as well and with the exception of some of the more obvious leaks which we've already discussed fewer outtakes emerged from the top artists of the seventies and onward as they did from their sixties counterparts.

Good points, John. Just to add onto two of them:

Another factor I didn't consider is the way the formulation of the tape itself changed sometime around the late 60's. If my memory serves, they were using something like a whale-oil based formula on the tapes up until the late 60's/early 70's. Then they switched to other formulations which led to "sticky shed" syndrome, where over time the material would actually break down and fall off the tape. This is what led to remastering projects needing to physically bake the tapes in an oven in order to re-seal the particles and be able to play them without losing what was recorded, or seriously damaging the sound quality of those old reels.

It could be an issue as to why certain sessions from certain bands might not be as readily available. If someone tried to copy them through the years, illegally or whatever, and didn't know this, the tapes could have been destroyed. That, and there were several notable fires which destroyed hundreds of master tapes housed at various facilities, and those would be lost forever.

With the Mamas and Papas, I agree, those would be nice because it's practically the same crew of characters and the same working methods at the same studios as we hear on the Beach Boys tracks. According to Hal Blaine, John Phillips could be a pain in the ass at times, and would usually have his bottle of Chivas Regal at his side as he led the sessions. So the more of the Chivas he downed, I guess the sessions could either get better or worse, depending on his mood...

I also have heard tantalizing bits and pieces of M&P sessions, and I know there exists video/film footage of them at a vocal session at Western which was filmed by ABC and broadcast in '67. I can't find anything from that ABC footage 9even though it was featured in an older M&P TV documentary), unfortunately, and asking around hasn't led too far. I'd love to see that.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I suspect that there are Jan & Dean multis still around somewhere.  There have been some decent J&D boots, but the best I've heard was on that official set where we get a short bit of the Dead Man's Curve basic tracking session, which is really cool.  A stereo remix of the complete backing track with the woodwinds and stuff would be incredible.

And I bet there's more.

There's the Spector set, the Byrds UM which I think is just the first album but does have lots of takes of Tambourine Man which is wrecking crew, of course.

Mamas and Papas sessions would indeed be neat. 

I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff is still around, but of course, not everything gets bootlegged or put out, unless there is a demand.

[Mikie]

Jan & Dean. There's a few things, for example on the "Jan & Dean Collector's Series" and "Rough City".

[Mikie]

Are there any bonus tracks?

Yeah, a few boner tracks, including the 22 minute version of Helter Skelter and of course the aforementioned Carnival Of Light.