Beach Boys Vs Beatles circa 66/67

[letsmakeit31]

I remember seeing that Brian Wilson said upon hearing Strawberry Fields Forever for the first time said that "Their won the race". But how can that be when Brian had already made and released "Good Vibrations". My point is this how did Brian come to this when "Strawberry fields forever" was made of two parts of the same song yet "Good Vibrations" which to my ears is so much better is made of at least 5 parts and that Brian when on recording new songs in the same manner how could Brian even think that his music is less than the Beatles latest offering??. And I'm a life long Beatles fan longer than being a Beach Boys fan but on becoming a Beach Boys fan I found Brian's music to be a step above Beatles music. What do you all think?. I wish I was there in early 67 to give Brian the boost he needed to carry on making Smile till it was finished. 

[puni puni]

put yourself in his context. it's not difficult to see how it would appeal to him

* the gentle flute mellotron contrasted by the thunderous drums, strings, and brass
* the sliding guitar leading into the chorus
* backwards cymbals
* the whole disorienting, marching feel. STRAWBERRY FIELDS BUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUM NOTHING IS REAL BUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUM. see also: the banging piano in the beginning of the coda
* the false ending
* specifically, the guitar with a lot of feedback
* the use of instruments

as brian would say, "it really rocked".

[Iron Horse-Apples]

'Cos the guy's an artist, and artists are notorious for fluxtuating between insecurity and invincibilty.

[letsmakeit31]

Of course I'm not saying Strawberry fields" didn't rock or was great but I think a lot of what when on that record Brian had done before e.g false ending as in Good Vibrations" after the arhhh part. Or even in "The little girl I once knew".

[puni puni]

he didn't do it like that though

[harrisonjon]

Strawberry Fields and Pepper are far less abstract than Smile. I love them equally but I have to say that The Beatles knew how to make popular art and how to make art popular. Smile does not do that: infact it is somewhat solipsistic. Different art forms, equally valid, but only one of them would have sold in the multi-millions.

[JohnMill]

I remember seeing that Brian Wilson said upon hearing Strawberry Fields Forever for the first time said that "Their won the race". But how can that be when Brian had already made and released "Good Vibrations". My point is this how did Brian come to this when "Strawberry fields forever" was made of two parts of the same song yet "Good Vibrations" which to my ears is so much better is made of at least 5 parts and that Brian when on recording new songs in the same manner how could Brian even think that his music is less than the Beatles latest offering??. And I'm a life long Beatles fan longer than being a Beach Boys fan but on becoming a Beach Boys fan I found Brian's music to be a step above Beatles music. What do you all think?. I wish I was there in early 67 to give Brian the boost he needed to carry on making Smile till it was finished. 

Same here.  When speaking of 1966 and 1967 taking the "Pet Sounds" album as a whole, "Good Vibrations" and the "SMiLE" sessions, Brian wins this argument hands down.  I mean with all due respect to The Beatles whom I regard as the greatest band of all time there is a compelling argument to be made that even without "SMiLE" Brian already by this time had crafted the greatest album of all time and the greatest single of all time.  That is pretty hard to top, The Beatles body of work in 1966 and 1967 notwithstanding.

[OneEar/OneEye]

Both bands were at the forefront of pushing what pop music could be, but they were on different tracks, two different types of pop music (albeit with similar attributes here and there).  The leaps Wilson was taking in this period, within the span of just a year or so, are to this day mind blowing.  What the Beatles (along with their producer and engineers) were achieving with four track technology is also still pretty amazing. 
They were two unique animals that complimented one another in the landscape.  The whole competition thing, the "better than" debates are really unnecessary.   The biggest thing is that one of the animals had a more obvious, integrated evolution, while the others was more chaotic and confused, taking giant leaps forward, yet retaining its stripes, growing legs, yet still afraid to leave the ocean and walk upon land.  One of the animals was fighting itself, pulling in different directions, couldn't make its mind up what it wanted to be, the brain and body weren't working together in harmony.   
Both were beautiful beasts though. 

[JohnMill]

Both bands were at the forefront of pushing what pop music could be, but they were on different tracks, two different types of pop music (albeit with similar attributes here and there).  The leaps Wilson was taking in this period, within the span of just a year or so, are to this day mind blowing.  What the Beatles (along with their producer and engineers) were achieving with four track technology is also still pretty amazing.  
They were two unique animals that complimented one another in the landscape.  The whole competition thing, the "better than" debates are really unnecessary.   The biggest thing is that one of the animals had a more obvious, integrated evolution, while the others was more chaotic and confused, taking giant leaps forward, yet retaining its stripes, growing legs, yet still afraid to leave the ocean and walk upon land.  One of the animals was fighting itself, pulling in different directions, couldn't make its mind up what it wanted to be, the brain and body weren't working together in harmony.  
Both were beautiful beasts though.  

I agree in theory that the debates are unnecessary because of everything you just said.  However I think there is a legitimate reason for this issue being such a hotly debated topic and I personally think it boils down to this.  For years after the release of "Let It Be", the breakup of The Beatles and the end of the sixties, The Beatles were anointed as I once read "The four happy minstrels of an unhappy time".  They were looked upon as the artists who more than anyone else (with apologies to Bob Dylan) defined their generation.  Having been anointed  and some would say rightfully so as such by both the media and public at large many people drew the conclusions that the most innovative and important of the sixties came out of Abbey Road Studios and that The Beatles albums represented the best records pressed to wax during that era.

I would say around two decades ago something interesting began to happen: A lot of the musical papers started to publish on a frequent basis pieces on the music of the sixties.  The era was now far enough in the rear view mirror that it could be considered history and therefore was the subject of a great deal of scrutiny unlike ever before.  Articles were being written and books were being published at a rapid clip on all the popular bands of the sixties.  While this was being done, a lot of albums from the era were being dusted off and rediscovered by these reviewers and one them was obviously "Pet Sounds".  In fact I'd say more than any other mainstream pop/rock album that I'm aware of PS generated more from this renewed interest from the media in the music of the sixties.  Slowly but surely you started to hear people make the case for PS being the greatest album of all time and I believe MOJO was the first publication where I personally read immense high praise for that album.  

So then the question for people like most of us became, if Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys arguably had the greatest record of all time in their closet then maybe The Beatles music did not represent the high point of the music of the decade in which they were created.  So to me, debates aside that in enough of itself is fascinating.  The fact that when so many people went back and started pulling records out and playing them again that so many of these people came back with "Pet Sounds" an album which was kind of under the radar as either the greatest album of all time or one of the top three albums of all time.  

[sidewinder572]

I like to put it like this, The Beatles made more better albums than The Beach Boys, but they never made an album as good as 'Pet Sounds.'

[Alex]

IMHO, the BBs did a lot of things the Beatles did, before the Beatles did it...and were either too early for it to matter, or just weren`t in bed with/get their asses kissed by critics/the press like the Beatles were.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

IMHO, the BBs did a lot of things the Beatles did, before the Beatles did it...and were either too early for it to matter, or just weren`t in bed with/get their asses kissed by critics/the press like the Beatles were.

 

[Chris Brown]

I like to put it like this, The Beatles made more better albums than The Beach Boys, but they never made an album as good as 'Pet Sounds.'

That's generally my feeling as well.  The Beatles were more consistent as a band in terms of the quality of the material they put out (the fact that they disbanded in 1970 certainly helped in this respect), but even at their best, they never quite reached the level that The Beach Boys/Brian did.  The period of Pet Sounds, "Good Vibrations" and Smile is untouchable by any band, including The Beatles, in my opinion.

[Dead Parrot]

Personally I don't like to compare the 2. I love both, but I couldn't imagine Brian,  Mike, Van Dyke Parks or Tony Asher coming up with something like "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Rain", "Eleanor Rigby", "A Day In The Life", or "I Am The Walrus". And I couldn't imagine The Beatles coming up with anything like, "God Only Knows", "Caroline, No", "Good Vibrations", "Heroes & Villians", "Wonderful", or "Cabinessence". But IMHO, the world is a better place for having all of those songs in it.

[Keri]

It's an intriguing time period for both bands, marking their peak and fall.

For the Beatles it covers Revolver, SFF/Penny Lane, Sgt Pepper & Magical Mystery Tour

For the Beach Boys Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations, SMiLE sessions, Smiley Smile & Wild Honey

What a rich feast of music, I've got to say I love this stuff to bits. Unlike many here I don't rate Pet Sounds more highly than Sgt Pepper, I think it is a more perfect album, Instrumentally Brian used the best session players, he got the best out of them and he was musically extremely creative. You get the feeling that Brian knew what he wanted and he didn't stop till he got it. By comparison Sgt Pepper is a bit amateurish, also worth keeping in mind that the Beach Boys were using 8 track against the Beatles 4. But Sgt Pepper is a much more colourful album, less personal but culturally richer. Art is highly subjective but I think SMiLE and Pepper are much closer in spirit.

With the comparison of SFF and Good Vibrations I find that again GV is the more perfect recording. In another thread someone spoke of how they liked the original lyrics more for GV and i feel some of that too. The imagery is pretty but pretty external:

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air

This line is quite good:

I don't know where but she sends me there

The title of the song and the idea seemed pretty internal introverted, almost psychic, the idea of people giving off vibrations. But much of the imagery doesn't deliver on this wonderfully crazy idea it's just a boy likes pretty girl song.

I liked the original "She's already working on my brain" not as pretty but much more internal.

Whereas SFF the song is very internal and is lyrically very strong, the diction has an immediacy of speech, with his changing his mind, the uncertainty and dreaming takes you right into his head.

Always, no sometimes, think it's me
But you know I know when it's a dream
I think I know I mean a "Yes" but it's all wrong
That is I think I disagree
Let me take you down, cos I'm going to Strawberry Fields
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about

I also see something of a correlation between Smiley Smile and Magical Mystery Tour after the earlier high points Sgt Pepper and SMiLE both bands stepped into a touch of weirdness.

A really amazing period which marked the peak and the point from which both bands started to fall apart.

[Dunderhead]

I think this about sums it up:

"I remembered a pretty tale of a matter which happened some time ago in Italy when I happened to be there. I should like to tell it to you, as it shows very vividly what true friendship can accomplish"
"It so happened that a certain noble prince, a zealous friend and protector of the arts, offered a valuable prize for a picture, the subject of which, very interesting, and not overdifficult to treat, was duly announced. Two young painters, who were close friends, determined to compete for this prize. They were in the habit of working together; they told each other their respective ideas on the subject, showed each other their sketches for it, and talked much together as to the difficulties to be overcome. The older of the two, who had soon grasped the idea of his picture, had sketched it, and was helping the younger with all his power; for the latter was so discouraged at the very threshold of his sketch for the picture, that he would have given up all idea of going on had not the elder unceasingly encouraged him, and given him advice and suggestions.
"Now when they began to paint their pictures, the younger, who was a master of color, was able the elder many suggestions, which he skillfully used; thus, the elder had never colored a picture so well, and the younger had never drawn one so well. When the pictures were finished, the masters embraced each other, each of them inwardly delighted with the work of the other, and each convinced that the well-earned prize belonged of right to the other.
"The younger, however, was the winner of the prize; upon which he cried out, thoroughly ashamed: 'Why should I have it? What is my merit compared to my friend's? I could not have accomplished anything worthy of praise but for his help.' But the elder spake thus: 'And did you not help me with valuable counsel and advice? No doubt my picture is by no means bad; but you have got the prize, as was proper. To strive towards the same goal, bravely and openly, that is real friendship. Then the laurel which the victor gains honors the vanquished too. I like you all the more for your having labored so doughtily, and brought me, too, honor and renown by your victory.'"

[Keri]

^^^ That's great

[Cam Mott]

Maybe he meant they had done the "childhood" thing.

[letsmakeit31]

Lovely story. Thank you Fishmonk. Of course its so easy for us to all look back with hindsight but I truly believe that the Beach Boys could of "Won the race" easily. At least we all can be thankful that both Mr Wilson & Macca are still with us making music & playing live

[runnersdialzero]

I like to put it like this, The Beatles made several good albums, but they never made an album as good as Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Today!, Summer Days, Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surf's Up, and probably Love You and maybe other albums.

[Micha]

Personally, I think GV is the most influential single of all time. IMHO it was more influential than the whole Pet Sounds album. Before I got myself informed about the hiostory of the Beach Boys I thought GV was a 1967 record because it fits more with the 1967 songs and sound of other bands. In fact it sparked the whole summer of love music of 1967. Brian was first with the new sound.

I'm not sure though Brian really said that the Beatles had "won the race" when he heard SFF - it would make more sense if Brian thought so when they released SPLHCB.

Brian also beat the Beatles to stop touring, and Mike Love beat the Beatles in growing a beard.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think Brian might have realized that SFF rocked!!! It had a killer guitar riff here and there and kickin Ringo drums that the kids could bop to, not to mention the whole tribal Ringo outro.

GV is the THE Better song/production, but SFF sounded like a band and rocked and Brian knew the kids would dig that aspect of it.