To make an album better

[thomasogg]

The Beach Boys are by far my favourite band of all time, and I rate them as better than The Beatles, but not everything they did was great. 'Take A Load..' was a B-side, 'Tears In The Morning' is too cheesy, 'He Come Down' is a mess etc. These are just my opinions, but they're jolly good ones. Even if you like these tracks, their were better ones remaining unreleased and i think they shoulda replaced 'em for sure, for the sake of the albums, and their image (what is gonna resonate more if an audience in the '70's, a song like '4th of July' about Vietnam, or a song about a guy called Pete taking care of his feet?).
I didn't think anyone liked 'Feet..' except Al Jardine haha!! The aforementioned Beatles were great, but that doesn't change the fact that 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' sucks ass!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I liked it. But really, I liked everything the BB did 1966-1976. I agree about Bruce's songs. I like them, but IMHO he was (and is) the weakest member of the group.

The aforementioned Beatles were great, but that doesn't change the fact that 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' sucks ass!

I agree 100%.

[MBE]

I think what makes Bruce's songs work in the context of Sunflower and Surf's Up are what Brian added to them harmonically. His falsetto lines were excellent and they also had a flow with the rest of the material. Were there better songs in the vaults? Yes but I think that at least on Sunflower the flow as an LP is perfect.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good point, Mike. I think too if you take what everyone's said about Going Pubic, you can see what Bruce can do by himself, without Brian or anybody else helping reign in his suckiness.

Or so I hear. I've never heard it.

[thomasogg]

Going 'Pubic'? Not THAT'S a typo!! I don't agree about TITM flowing with the rest of the material on Sunflower, I think it really jars.. Deirdre fits well, but 'Tears' seems out of place to me.

[MBE]

Good point, Mike. I think too if you take what everyone's said about Going Pubic, you can see what Bruce can do by himself, without Brian or anybody else helping reign in his suckiness.

Or so I hear. I've never heard it.

It's a joke

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Going 'Pubic'? Not THAT'S a typo!!

Freudian slip!:lol

[Andrew G. Doe]

These are just my opinions, but they're jolly good ones.

I knew it !! Welcome back, Bobby California !!!

...a song like '4th of July' about Vietnam

... which isn't about Vietnam but the New York Times - according to Jack Rieley.

[Glenn Greenberg]

On Sunflower, I'd drop "Tears in the Morning" and replace it with "San Miguel."

On Surf's Up, I'd drop "Student Demonstration Time" and "Lookin' at Tomorrow" and replace them with "H.E.L.P. is on the Way" and "I Just Got My Pay."

[matt-zeus]

I'd still ike to go for the Sunflower sprawling double LP, it could easily be done, it could have about 30 songs, it would be like the BB equivalent of the White Album, off the top of my head you could add

San Miguel
Soulful old man sunshine
I just got my Pay
When girls get together
Good time
Games two can play
Big Sur
Suzie Cincinatti
Sound of Free
Lady
Take a load of your feet
Loop de loop

Thats 12 songs already, i'm sure i've missed out a few. The others could be made up of more late 60s stuff - Breakaway, Cottonfields, We're together again, Walkin, over the waves etc. and/or wait a few extra months til the end of 1970 and get on stuff like My solution, Seasons in the sun, HELP is on its way etc..

[Smilin Ed H]

I'm not sure of the value of removing tracks from this 69-73 period, but there's still plenty of room to add two or three to make these albums even better.

Later on, it becomes more problematical, although call me masochistic if you like, but I'd be happy with an all-oldies 15 Big Ones.

MIU is easy: don't release it, but save My Diane and Pitter Patter for LA, adding Santa Ana Winds, Lookin' Down the Coast and California Feelin', while dropping HCTN, Lady Lynda, Goin' South and Sumhama.

[thomasogg]

Ok, it might not be about Vietnam then, but it stick packs somewhat more relevance than an over-produced ditty about foot care no?

[the captain]

I think Dennis had a penchant for over-producing, too, so I wouldn't use that particular criticism when trying to trade in his work for (in this case) Al's.

Admittedly "Feet" (which I quite like) is overly gimmicky in its production--something I think Al did far too much of throughout his production credits--but the song itself is nice in a harmless way. And 4th of July, like much of Dennis' stuff, is just too melodramatic for my taste.

[Fun Is In]

Who was the genius who put Cool Cool Water on the A side of the single and Forever on the B-side and expected to get radio play?

[the captain]

Who was the genius who put Cool Cool Water on the A side of the single and Forever on the B-side and expected to get radio play?

Actually, I do wonder--who was it? Was that a label decision or the band's? I have read of course that L. Waronker loved CCW, so was it his?

[thomasogg]

I couldn't disagree more re Dennis' songs being either too melodramatic or over-produced.  His productions were often surprisingly sparse i.e. Lady and, yes, 4th of July. But then if everyone felt the same there wouldn't be much point in sites like this...

[the captain]

I think if you look to his C&TP tracks, you'll see what I mean. They sound the way marshmallows taste.

[thomasogg]

No way, I hate marshmallow and I love those tracks. I think they get the balance just right. What about the middle of 'Cuddle Up' when the whole thing dies down and there's just a lone piano, a few strings and the BBs 'oooohing' - absolutely beautiful! They're about the only tracks on CATP which are produced well in fact.. 'Need a Mess..' and 'All This is That' could've been even better had they been more carefully produced.

[punkinhead]

what's wierd about so tough is that we never hear the beach boys sound like that again. It's a totally new sound from dennis (what could have been his first solo album)...Mess of Help, Marcella, All this; is sooo fresh and new...I feel like when they went to holland, it was back to the Surf's Up era of producing...not that that's a bad thing

[MBE]

That's true So Tough is really different from what came before and after. I think most of it works well. The song Brian wrote with Rieley are two of my favorites.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

what's wierd about so tough is that we never hear the beach boys sound like that again. It's a totally new sound from dennis (what could have been his first solo album)...Mess of Help, Marcella, All this; is sooo fresh and new...I feel like when they went to holland, it was back to the Surf's Up era of producing...not that that's a bad thing

In a way that's true with tracks like 'Steam Boat' and 'California Sega'. But I think that songs like 'Sail On Sailor', 'Leaving this Town', 'Trader' and 'Funky Pretty' are a step beyond So Tough.

[Julia]

Include more of Dennis' songs on the 70s albums, I agree Landlocked is a better title than SU.

Better cover art!! The cover art of most BB albums is middling to terrible. This goes for just about each one except: Surfin Safari, Shut Down Vol 2, SMiLE, Smiley, WH, Friends and Holland. EVERY SINGLE OTHER COVER needed to be better. The Surfer Girl and Summer Days albums are pretty good except retake the first with the guys more evenly spaced across the board and retake the second with Al. The rest are terrible.

Get rid of the spoken word filler wherever possible.

Instead of secular santa, their christmas album shouldve been 100% choral hymns. More Silent Night, less Santa Claus is coming to town with weird ass carnival music

Include a different song from the LY sessions than Love is a Woman

More of Adult/Child on MIU

Less "smooth as velveeta cheese" production on some of their latter albums, especially KTSA.

[BJL]

Include more of Dennis' songs on the 70s albums, I agree Landlocked is a better title than SU.

Better cover art!! The cover art of most BB albums is middling to terrible. This goes for just about each one except: Surfin Safari, Shut Down Vol 2, SMiLE, Smiley, WH, Friends and Holland. EVERY SINGLE OTHER COVER needed to be better. The Surfer Girl and Summer Days albums are pretty good except retake the first with the guys more evenly spaced across the board and retake the second with Al. The rest are terrible.

Get rid of the spoken word filler wherever possible.

Instead of secular santa, their christmas album shouldve been 100% choral hymns. More Silent Night, less Santa Claus is coming to town with weird ass carnival music

Include a different song from the LY sessions than Love is a Woman

More of Adult/Child on MIU

Less "smooth as velveeta cheese" production on some of their latter albums, especially KTSA.

I think it's a teeny bit ironic that one of the biggest defenders of spoken word material in Smile wants it out of the rest of the catalogue Not sure you can have one without the other, personally! That goes for the Christmas album too, sort of. Not that I disagree with you, I also wish we had more choral arrangements and less Frosty. But Brian was using the orchestral songs as a learning opportunity re: arranging larger assembles and working with horns, so it served an important larger purpose in his overall development as a record producer, even if it feels like an odd and spectacularly dated choice from a contemporary perspective.

Also the All Summer Long cover is iconic!

But other than that I agree across the board.

[Julia]

I think it's a teeny bit ironic that one of the biggest defenders of spoken word material in Smile wants it out of the rest of the catalogue Not sure you can have one without the other, personally! That goes for the Christmas album too, sort of. Not that I disagree with you, I also wish we had more choral arrangements and less Frosty. But Brian was using the orchestral songs as a learning opportunity re: arranging larger assembles and working with horns, so it served an important larger purpose in his overall development as a record producer, even if it feels like an odd and spectacularly dated choice from a contemporary perspective.

Also the All Summer Long cover is iconic!

But other than that I agree across the board.

Haha, touche   But in all seriousness, I think there's just something kinda funny, not ha-ha funny but innately humorous, about the Veggie Fight and "trapped in an instrument" concepts that make them work where "Im Bugged at My Old Man" and ESPECIALLY the Bull session just feel pointless. With the bull session its like, wtf is that? Is that even supposed to be funny? I dont get it, its just such a weird thing to include on the album. The Beatles never did something like that even at the beginning, much less in 1965 which for me is the year the album as an artform emerged.

Your other points are well taken. ASL's cover is iconic, that one can stay although personally Im not the biggest fan. Ill even add that I kinda like the KTSA album cover even if it is tacky. Had it not been associated with a particularly bad album, Id gladly hang it on my wall as a cool poster.

Another note too, the band needed better management. Murry was great at getting their foot in the door but needed to go around when he did. Jack Reilly was great at making them seem cool again but as I understand it was a liar and manipulated them against each other--I dont know enough to say whether it was a fixable situation or not. At every other time in their careers, the guys have had bad management both as a group and whenever anyone went solo. Anytime they stumble back into an opportunity for success, like BWPS or the C50 & Love and Mercy film, there's always some lackluster marketing, lawsuits, bad PR or resurfaced off-putting drama that dampens the moment. People's eyes will be on the Boys for the first time in decades thinking "hey maybe there's more to them than I thought" and bad press makes those casual would-be fans go "ehh, no thanks."

[BJL]

I think it's a teeny bit ironic that one of the biggest defenders of spoken word material in Smile wants it out of the rest of the catalogue Not sure you can have one without the other, personally! That goes for the Christmas album too, sort of. Not that I disagree with you, I also wish we had more choral arrangements and less Frosty. But Brian was using the orchestral songs as a learning opportunity re: arranging larger assembles and working with horns, so it served an important larger purpose in his overall development as a record producer, even if it feels like an odd and spectacularly dated choice from a contemporary perspective.

Also the All Summer Long cover is iconic!

But other than that I agree across the board.

Haha, touche   But in all seriousness, I think there's just something kinda funny, not ha-ha funny but innately humorous, about the Veggie Fight and "trapped in an instrument" concepts that make them work where "Im Bugged at My Old Man" and ESPECIALLY the Bull session just feel pointless. With the bull session its like, wtf is that? Is that even supposed to be funny? I dont get it, its just such a weird thing to include on the album. The Beatles never did something like that even at the beginning, much less in 1965 which for me is the year the album as an artform emerged.

Your other points are well taken. ASL's cover is iconic, that one can stay although personally Im not the biggest fan. Ill even add that I kinda like the KTSA album cover even if it is tacky. Had it not been associated with a particularly bad album, Id gladly hang it on my wall as a cool poster.

Another note too, the band needed better management. Murry was great at getting their foot in the door but needed to go around when he did. Jack Reilly was great at making them seem cool again but as I understand it was a liar and manipulated them against each other--I dont know enough to say whether it was a fixable situation or not. At every other time in their careers, the guys have had bad management both as a group and whenever anyone went solo. Anytime they stumble back into an opportunity for success, like BWPS or the C50 & Love and Mercy film, there's always some lackluster marketing, lawsuits, bad PR or resurfaced off-putting drama that dampens the moment. People's eyes will be on the Boys for the first time in decades thinking "hey maybe there's more to them than I thought" and bad press makes those casual would-be fans go "ehh, no thanks."

Well, my lengthy defense of Bull Sessions is in the next thread down, so I won't belabor the point. It's definitely not supposed to be, like, funny funny. And it is undeniably a weird thing to include on a record. But there's just something magic to me about the last notes of In the Back of My Mind fading out and then getting a couple minutes of the Beach Boys hanging out in the studio, shooting the sh*t. And I've always loved Bugged at My Old Man but I'm not sure I could put together a coherent defense of it, other than that it reflects a way of handling childhood abuse through making light of it that is really, really common and all over comedy but almost unheard of in music.

Big time agree on bad management across the board. Even just Murry maintaining power for long enough to force out Dave on bullshit grounds, thus foiling Brian's plan to make a soft exit from touring, and forcing a nervous-breakdown induced hard exit a year later, is one of those things that probably marks a major "what if" in the band's, and Brian's, story. And that just should never have happened, because the band should have had professional management and control over their own destiny by then, and they didn't, and on some level they never really got it.

Though on the Brian's solo career stuff, I tend to think that that went about as well as it could (at least post Gettin in Over My Head), and the problems I think you're thinking of, which I completely agree were very real, were fundamentally, in my view, a product of Brian Wilson (and Mike Love) and probably not something any manager could have fully reigned in.