What I Find So Perplexing About the "SMiLE' Saga......

[Mike's Beard]

I think the single version of H&V is hands down the best version there is. The Smiley parts contrast perfectly with the older parts, giving the song a really eerie quality.

[The Demon]

I honestly think the one thing that keeps Smiley Smile from being a stone cold classic to everyone is one thing: the fact that it is missing the important classic payoff song, ala "A Day in the Life".

And we know what song that is....."SURF'S UP"

It seemed like quite a few of the reviews at the time of the review mention the lack of this song. And I honestly, I think Smiley Smile almost works as an album. With "Surf's Up", it would have had its third cornerstone (the others being "Heroes and Villains and "Good Vibrations"), and its emotional masterpiece. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it seems it was not considered for release. I think the rest of the material on the album is top class, but I just think there's no payoff, and that's why album seems like it's missing something. Pet Sounds had its payoff in songs like "God Only Knows" and "Caroline No", and Smiley Smile didn't.

I think the appearance of "Heroes" and "Surf's Up" at the same time, on the same album, would have had a major effect for the boys, and may have changed things. I just gotta wonder why it wasn't considered for the album, because it seems most of the SMiLE biggies were. And of course, after the Smiley sessions, Brian returned to it, possibly either for Wild Honey or possibly the 10-track SMiLE, or maybe neither.

But yeah thats where I stand.

No version of "Surf's Up" would ever fit though.  Smiley is a goofball record  by someone who has given up and isn't really enjoying humor, but making it anyway and trying to force/rectify a family dynamic.  It's not a grandiose statement like Smile.

If Smiley Smile didn't have Smile tunes, we wouldn't confuse the records at all.  They're not the same record, period.  You get some of the same compositions because he had to put something out and that's what he had to work with.  And I think that's why the band was okay with that record coming out, even if some feel it's weirder.  They had to release something, and this was at least a record they could play easily.

Both records are absolutely part of the same initial inspiration, but they are totally different products.  It's like a person at very different times in their life--they've changed.

[Chris Brown]

And why butcher the brilliant 'In The Cantina' version of H&V in favor of the terrible, disjointed, and  mutilated released single version? Hell, the Beatles were releasing long songs like 'Strawberry Fields', 'Within You Without You' and 'A Day in the Life'. I don't think the world would have ended if The Beach Boys released the longer, more complete version of 'H&V'.

It's just so frustrating knowing that Surf's Up, Bicycle Rider, In The Cantina, Roll Plymouth Rock, and Child is Father of the Man were shelved while the bizarre 'She's Goin' Bald' with the sped up vocals and the vastly inferior re-working of Wind Chimes came out instead.

All you needed to add was IMO and I'd have been fine with this post. Not everyone agrees you know

I personally think the Smiley Smile Wind Chimes is the greatest thing they ever recorded, but then I hear beyond the surface to the structure within. You obviously only hear things on a very simple level, i.e, just the production.

Smiley Smile contains as many brilliant musical moments as SMiLE, it's just the bare bones.

As for Hereos and Villains, the Smiley Smile version flows much better than the Cantina version. All about structure and balance again.

I mostly agree with you.  I love almost every track on Smiley, but as I've said, that version of "Heroes" just doesn't work for me.  It's a little too structured, IMO.  Too much of the song is consumed with the verse and chorus (which is too long, if you ask me).  I love the other sections, particularly "my children were raised" through "sunny down snuff," but the rest just isn't adventurous enough.  What I love about the Cantina version is that it's fast moving, exciting - you don't know where the hell it's going to go, and you're just knocked out by the rapid succession of one amazing section after another.  It doesn't over-rely on one or two ideas to carry it like the single version does.

[juggler]

Personally, I like the 'Cantina' version, and that's what I use in my Smile playlists.  However, it really doesn't sound complete.  It really does sound like "part 1" of some mysterious longer version of H&V. 

I know that Chuck Britz talked about a 5-6 minute version of H&V that was as good or better than GV. Frankly, though, I've never heard any version or mix of 1966-67 H&V that truly sounds like it could have been an artistic and commercial triumph on the level of Good Vibrations. 

" It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song.Then, I understand, they went up to his home, and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of (Brian's) pool to get the pool quality.They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. Our (version) ran about five or six minutes; it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations'. It had some great melodic lines. The arrangement was so full, and it was just something that I was very disappointed in when I heard the final product."

I don't know.  Perhaps the 45 in the box set will be a reconstruction of this version.  Or not.  We'll see.

Some folks will probably strongly disagree with me on this, but I actually think a more rockin' H&V along the lines of Al's live version from early '70s (e.g., on the In Concert album) might have had more potential to be a #1 hit.

[JohnMill]

Personally, I like the 'Cantina' version, and that's what I use in my Smile playlists.  However, it really doesn't sound complete.  It really does sound like "part 1" of some mysterious longer version of H&V. 

I know that Chuck Britz talked about a 5-6 minute version of H&V that was as good or better than GV. Frankly, though, I've never heard any version or mix of 1966-67 H&V that truly sounds like it could have been an artistic and commercial triumph on the level of Good Vibrations. 

" It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song.Then, I understand, they went up to his home, and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of (Brian's) pool to get the pool quality.They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. Our (version) ran about five or six minutes; it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations'. It had some great melodic lines. The arrangement was so full, and it was just something that I was very disappointed in when I heard the final product."

I don't know.  Perhaps the 45 in the box set will be a reconstruction of this version.  Or not.  We'll see.

Some folks will probably strongly disagree with me on this, but I actually think a more rockin' H&V along the lines of Al's live version from early '70s (e.g., on the In Concert album) might have had more potential to be a #1 hit.

A lot of good points here.  I'm probably not anymore of a H&V guy than I am a GV guy as I love both records however I think given the wealth of material Brian tracked for H&V It had the potential to be one of the most commercially successful pop records of all time, better than GV because conceptually I believe it was more advanced than GV. 

I've always felt the same way about the "Cantina Mix"  myself as well, I don't feel it's definitive but it's the closest thing out there to a mix of the song that actually sounds alive for lack of a better term.  The Smiley mix to my ears sounds underwater, its like someone placed blankets over the speakers and tried to blast a real groovy tune through them.  No offense to those that enjoy it but I've always found it pretty horrid or should I say the mix is horrid because the parts that comprise that mix aren't bad.

I remember someone (Mok?) put together a mix of H&V that I really enjoyed where he sourced everything from the multi-track tapes and the clarity of the song improved greatly.  I think this is so important to get across as it is a lack of sonic clarity that I feel is H&V's greatest detriment. 

[OneEar/OneEye]

Agreed the Smiley Heroes has the flow, but the "cantina" version is more exciting.  And in total agreement that it sounds incomplete, like there should be more to it, and maybe it would have been the "Part 1."  It sounds liek that, like you'd listen to that then flip the single over and you have the continuation on the b-side. 

I have another question, which maybe ought to be placed in the boxset thread, but people keep referencing a Wild Honey era Surf's Up as being on the coming release - where is that listed?  I know there's a Surf's Up 1967 listed, is that it?  How do we know that is from the WH sessions?  I don't know all the session date info, so I am assuming Surf's Up was only logged as being recorded in '66, and that this is where that assumption comes from?   Could it not be from the Smiley Smile sessions?  This may have been answered in some other thread but these Smile threads are getting so long that I haven't the fortitude to try and find it.  Just curious, though I guess my question(s) will be answered in about 2 months.

[JohnMill]

Agreed the Smiley Heroes has the flow, but the "cantina" version is more exciting.  And in total agreement that it sounds incomplete, like there should be more to it, and maybe it would have been the "Part 1."  It sounds liek that, like you'd listen to that then flip the single over and you have the continuation on the b-side.  

I have another question, which maybe ought to be placed in the boxset thread, but people keep referencing a Wild Honey era Surf's Up as being on the coming release - where is that listed?  I know there's a Surf's Up 1967 listed, is that it?  How do we know that is from the WH sessions?  I don't know all the session date info, so I am assuming Surf's Up was only logged as being recorded in '66, and that this is where that assumption comes from?   Could it not be from the Smiley Smile sessions?  This may have been answered in some other thread but these Smile threads are getting so long that I haven't the fortitude to try and find it.  Just curious, though I guess my question(s) will be answered in about 2 months.

Surf's Up 1967 has been confirmed to be the WH version by people on this forum who would know what is what.  

[OneEar/OneEye]

Oh, well, then since I rarely know what's what I'll accept that answer and look forward to Nov. 1st.   I wonder what that is going to sound like"?

[Dr. Tim]

 Quote from Guitarfool re "Wind Chimes": "there is a stunner of a split second on the track."

That's actually a dodgy tape splice, which goes silent for that brief moment so as not to wreck the rhythm coming out of the prior section.   If it had been butt-spliced cold it would sound like a mistake.

It will be interesting to see if this is "rectified" on TSS, or they could find a better mix/edit of this section, that makes a more musical version of this edit.  (It should sound like the transition into the big band section on the BWPS Wind Chimes).

[joshferrell]

personally I think that both H&V and GV seem out of place on smiley smile..they are just too complex compared to the rest of the songs..

[SurfRiderHawaii]

It is perplexing, great posts on the songs of SS.  Not sure who else in the band were doing some drugs at the time besides Brian.
(Doesn't Al claim to have never done drugs. Mike?  But was Mike smoking mj at the time)

But in hindsight,I'm glad we have Smiley Smile; they could well have done nothing for a year.  Or split up.

[ghost]

Are you kidding me? Al was baked as a cake from Wild Honey to Holland.

Back in the day everyone on the in knew that when you saw Al Jadine anywhere at any time of day the man was high out of his mind on the finest buds in California. Sure he was a square for a little while but who wasn't? Were you born shooting dope? Al Jardine wrote Wake The World to celebrate his wake n bake erryday routine.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Are you kidding me? Al was baked as a cake from Wild Honey to Holland.

Back in the day everyone on the in knew that when you saw Al Jadine anywhere at any time of day the man was high out of his mind on the finest buds in California. Sure he was a square for a little while but who wasn't? Were you born shooting dope? Al Jardine wrote Wake The World to celebrate his wake n bake erryday routine.

Wouldn't surprise me.  But I just read the interview from Mike talking about the band "anti-drug faction" (Mike, Al and Bruce) vs. the drug faction (the Wilsons).  I're read interviews where Al claims he never did drugs ("keeping it clean with Al Jardine").  Course, I never really believe everything I read.  As to artist drug use, the PR side tries to project and alternate reality frequently.

Were you born shooting dope? - Huh?

Wondering how much effect drugs had on the weirdness of Smiley Smile.

[ghost]

Are you kidding me? Al was baked as a cake from Wild Honey to Holland.

Back in the day everyone on the in knew that when you saw Al Jadine anywhere at any time of day the man was high out of his mind on the finest buds in California. Sure he was a square for a little while but who wasn't? Were you born shooting dope? Al Jardine wrote Wake The World to celebrate his wake n bake erryday routine.

Wouldn't surprise me.  But I just read the interview from Mike talking about the band "anti-drug faction" (Mike, Al and Bruce) vs. the drug faction (the Wilsons).  I're read interviews where Al claims he never did drugs ("keeping it clean with Al Jardine").  Course, I never really believe everything I read.  As to artist drug use, the PR side tries to project and alternate reality frequently.

Were you born shooting dope? - Huh?

Wondering how much effect drugs had on the weirdness of Smiley Smile.

Dope... was a joke. Were you born shooting dope [i.e., that cool]. The joke is... shooting dope is not really cool at all.

Little known fact about Al Jardine: it's all lies. Why do you think he wanted to be a dentist so bad? FOR THE ENDLESS FREE SUPPLY OF NITROUS OXIDE! Al was the one who turned The Wilson's onto Reddi Whip which we know they were so fond of. Al Jardine first had laughing gas as a kid and was hooked for life. When Al gets stressed out he just goes to the dentist for a nice long session with nitrous oxide. The pitch shifted vocals on She's Goin Bald are totally a Reddi Whip creation/idea.

[guitarfool2002]

Quote from Guitarfool re "Wind Chimes": "there is a stunner of a split second on the track."

That's actually a dodgy tape splice, which goes silent for that brief moment so as not to wreck the rhythm coming out of the prior section.   If it had been butt-spliced cold it would sound like a mistake.

It will be interesting to see if this is "rectified" on TSS, or they could find a better mix/edit of this section, that makes a more musical version of this edit.  (It should sound like the transition into the big band section on the BWPS Wind Chimes).

  That's why I said this: "Whether the pace and timing of that edit was from Brian, Chuck Britz, or Mark Linett, I don't care - it's amazing."

One listener's dodgy can be another listener's amazing. I loved that box set version with that splice: any version on other sources without it still doesn't sound as cool to my ears.

[adamghost]

Agreed the Smiley Heroes has the flow, but the "cantina" version is more exciting.  And in total agreement that it sounds incomplete, like there should be more to it, and maybe it would have been the "Part 1."  It sounds liek that, like you'd listen to that then flip the single over and you have the continuation on the b-side.  

I have another question, which maybe ought to be placed in the boxset thread, but people keep referencing a Wild Honey era Surf's Up as being on the coming release - where is that listed?  I know there's a Surf's Up 1967 listed, is that it?  How do we know that is from the WH sessions?  I don't know all the session date info, so I am assuming Surf's Up was only logged as being recorded in '66, and that this is where that assumption comes from?   Could it not be from the Smiley Smile sessions?  This may have been answered in some other thread but these Smile threads are getting so long that I haven't the fortitude to try and find it.  Just curious, though I guess my question(s) will be answered in about 2 months.

Surf's Up 1967 has been confirmed to be the WH version by people on this forum who would know what is what.  

[chris.metcalfe]

The mood of the times was changing so rapidly then, for those who remember it.

November 66 felt very different to September 67, and Smiley Smile suited the latter perfectly. I also think it had wider appeal in the sense of humour and less personal 'troubled sensitive soul' aspect which had pervaded Today/Pet Sounds etc.

Smile would have been different again, in say May 67 just before Flower power and Pepper, but Brian was trying to do the work of the 4 Beatles and George Martin combined -  never gonna happen.

[ghost]

I WAS TOO BUSY PARTYING TO REMEMBER THE 60S DUDE, AN ENTIRE DECADE WENT BY WITHOUT ANY RECOLLECTION ON MY PART. OH, MY ALZHEIMER'S...

[redlicktrout]

When Smiley was released,I thought it was a dreadful,depressing album--Since then I have come full circle,I now find Smiley to be mezmerizing even historic because of it's weirdness and rythmic arrangments of BW's SMiLE stuff.

[ghost]

When Smiley was released,I thought it was a dreadful,depressing album--Since then I have come full circle,I now find Smiley to be mezmerizing even historic because of it's weirdness and rythmic arrangments of BW's SMiLE stuff.

Hmm, I could actually see the strange style of that album giving someone these feelings. To compare Pet Sounds > Smiley Smile (!!!!!!) - PS's substantial emotional depth in a normative sense and SS's abstract acid tinged stoned psychedelic humor, it's like there's been a total break in Brian Wilson's reality. A huge transformation has occured. The last we heard of him he was sensitive soul singing about lost innocence in Caroline No. Now he's still tripping on the same thought in Wonderful but it's become almost demonic, sick, perverted. Strange transition. Good Vibrations was the bridge inbetween the two worlds, the prayer that took them there, into the abstract beyond, out of the normal into the unusual.

[Bill Tobelman]

Going back to the post that started this thread, IMHO the reason that SMiLE didn't come out was because of Brian Wilson. Why do you think it's coming out in November? Brian said it was okay.

I think it was in '68 when Brian said something about SMiLE being personal but not right for the public. He was good with it but maybe it wasn't right, or 'inappropriate', for the masses.

This is all awesome SMiLE stuff. The challenge is to make everything work out okay so that you can explain nearly everything. Awesome. I have my answer.