Ok - so what do we "know" is missing frm the Smile sessions

[desmondo]

Bearing in mind that Mark and Alan may have got/found new stuff, what do we believe is missing

1. Multitracks for Wonderful and YAMS
2. Surf's Up second movement

That's a starter for ten..........what else

[hypehat]

Apparently there are portions of H&V and Vegetables missing, as the stereo mixes engage in some trickery. The H&V parts might just be limited to the changes done in the Smiley sessions, though.

Denny's 'Sunshine' vocals are only on acetates, as far as we know, but the track is on multi's....

It's really difficult to judge - were the SOT's stolen outright or just copied from the tapes?

[guitarfool2002]

One of the big ones would be the very first session for "Heroes" - a session which apparently was taped over and lost to history. We'll see in a few months if anything turned up, because they said a few early Beatles sessions were "lost" only to see them mysteriously appear on Anthology 1 after being found.

[Bicyclerider]

"I Ran/Look" vocal session
"Great Shape" vocal session
there are April Vegetables tracking sessions missing
Tones (carl's track) had a vocal session too, didn't it?  That's missing.

[Chris Moise]

Below is a post from Alan Boyd from a few years back..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How complete was Surf's Up in 1967?

I've heard about the existence of a tape of a full arrangement on that second section of SURF'S UP. It's been described to me, third-hand. Supposedly it's pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts. But I haven't heard it. We don't have it in the Beach Boys' tape library. And it's not among Brian's tapes either.

There is an enormous amount of SMILE material that's missing. I recently saw a photograph on Ed Roach's site of a tape shelf at Brother Studio, late 1970s. Right there, along with safety 1/4" masters of all the group's albums, is a tape labeled "BRIAN - DUMB ANGEL." Probably a 1/4" or 1/2". I nearly had a stroke when I saw that, and I immediately called anyone and everyone who ever had access to tapes at Brother, and asked what they knew about it. No one knew. What was on that reel? Where is it now? It certainly wasn't listed in the 1985 inventory of the group's tapes.

What WAS listed in that inventory are the many empty tape boxes from the SMILE era, on titles like "Heroes and Villains," "Cabinessence," "Surf's Up," "Vegetables," etc... they were empty in 1985, they're empty today. I'm certain, however, that excerpts from at least one of them (overdubs onto the last verse of "Vegetables") showed up on one of the SOT discs. They're almost all 1/4" mixdowns. Other SMILE tracks were assembled onto some of the 1/2" STACK-O-TRACKS assembly reels, and those SMILE songs are also....missing.

Never did find the multitrack of CABINESSENCE with Carl's lead vocal on it, by the way.

And "Heroes and Villains" is heartbreaking... there's almost NOTHING of any pre-1967 work on that song. I went through every tape on that title while scrounging up parts for the "Hawthorne" remix.... There are no multi-tracks on any of the verses from the early 1967 "alternate" version... nothing at all on the 3rd verse as found in the single (which is why the stereo spread goes a little, um...funky at that point in the Hawthorne mix), "Barnyard" exists only as a (not very good) dub onto an 8 track worktape, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're missing some significant work on "I'm In Great Shape" as well. We did find the first two verses for the single, but they seem to have been re-recorded by Brian specifically for the single. But there's no "3 score and five I'm very much alive" anywhere except on that partially mangled safety copy dated 2/10/67.

Was there indeed a completely diffferent version of the song (as Bruce has claimed) that may have included some sort of a Barnyard Suite (featuring Billy, who loved his chickens) and maybe even a barroom brawl? Did Brian have some sort of crisis in December 1966 that moved him to scrap everything he'd done before on that song and start again? Listening to some of those January 1967 tapes where he's almost obsessively tinkering with different chants of the song's title, it kinda sounds like he's fishing for inspiration.

And speaking of that early alternate mix, we have the tape box (which has a sort of "edit-list" written on it) for the master, but the song itself has been spliced out of the reel. I actually think the count-in may still be there.

Here's what's written on that tape box, dated 1/31/67:
_____________________________

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS
___________________________________

Here's what's written on the tape box for the SAFETY copy of "heroes and Villains"
_______________________________

“Heroes & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse
3rd verse (all edited together)

1 - bridge to 3rd verse
2 - bridge to fade
3 - cantina
4 - 2nd verse
5 - fade

(The above crossed out sort of...)

2:57 MASTER

PROT COPY
_______________________________

I can't even tell for sure if they're referring to the same edit. There's no way to know any of this for sure, because so much is missing. And I'll admit I sometimes think it's kinda pointless for anyone to say "It was THIS way" or "That song was supposed to be constructed like THIS" when there are so many huge gaps among the tapes themselves. especially when it comes to discussing "Heroes."

-Did Brian actually destroy some tapes back in the day? I think he just might have...

-Are there one-of-a-kind tapes that have been stolen and are now in the hands of collectors? Yes...

-Were there tapes that Brian somehow left behind at a studio after working on them that have since found their way into the hands of collectors? Probably...

-Are there acetates of missing material in the hands of collectors and/or people who were around at the time? Absolutely...

[Rich Panteluk]

Thanks for reposting that Alan Boyd quote Chris.  It is a depressing read.  Heartbreaking really.  I'm holding out hope that they managed to locate a few cool bits and pieces, but I am keeping my expectations low so that  hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised when I get that deluxe box in my hands and on my player...

[guitarfool2002]

He's describing that same tape box photo which Ed Roach himself debunked on this board a few weeks ago - I guess that photo and those tape boxes were considered legit until the story came out.

[desmondo]

Below is a post from Alan Boyd from a few years back..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How complete was Surf's Up in 1967?

I've heard about the existence of a tape of a full arrangement on that second section of SURF'S UP. It's been described to me, third-hand. Supposedly it's pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts. But I haven't heard it. We don't have it in the Beach Boys' tape library. And it's not among Brian's tapes either.

There is an enormous amount of SMILE material that's missing. I recently saw a photograph on Ed Roach's site of a tape shelf at Brother Studio, late 1970s. Right there, along with safety 1/4" masters of all the group's albums, is a tape labeled "BRIAN - DUMB ANGEL." Probably a 1/4" or 1/2". I nearly had a stroke when I saw that, and I immediately called anyone and everyone who ever had access to tapes at Brother, and asked what they knew about it. No one knew. What was on that reel? Where is it now? It certainly wasn't listed in the 1985 inventory of the group's tapes.

What WAS listed in that inventory are the many empty tape boxes from the SMILE era, on titles like "Heroes and Villains," "Cabinessence," "Surf's Up," "Vegetables," etc... they were empty in 1985, they're empty today. I'm certain, however, that excerpts from at least one of them (overdubs onto the last verse of "Vegetables") showed up on one of the SOT discs. They're almost all 1/4" mixdowns. Other SMILE tracks were assembled onto some of the 1/2" STACK-O-TRACKS assembly reels, and those SMILE songs are also....missing.

Never did find the multitrack of CABINESSENCE with Carl's lead vocal on it, by the way.

And "Heroes and Villains" is heartbreaking... there's almost NOTHING of any pre-1967 work on that song. I went through every tape on that title while scrounging up parts for the "Hawthorne" remix.... There are no multi-tracks on any of the verses from the early 1967 "alternate" version... nothing at all on the 3rd verse as found in the single (which is why the stereo spread goes a little, um...funky at that point in the Hawthorne mix), "Barnyard" exists only as a (not very good) dub onto an 8 track worktape, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're missing some significant work on "I'm In Great Shape" as well. We did find the first two verses for the single, but they seem to have been re-recorded by Brian specifically for the single. But there's no "3 score and five I'm very much alive" anywhere except on that partially mangled safety copy dated 2/10/67.

Was there indeed a completely diffferent version of the song (as Bruce has claimed) that may have included some sort of a Barnyard Suite (featuring Billy, who loved his chickens) and maybe even a barroom brawl? Did Brian have some sort of crisis in December 1966 that moved him to scrap everything he'd done before on that song and start again? Listening to some of those January 1967 tapes where he's almost obsessively tinkering with different chants of the song's title, it kinda sounds like he's fishing for inspiration.

And speaking of that early alternate mix, we have the tape box (which has a sort of "edit-list" written on it) for the master, but the song itself has been spliced out of the reel. I actually think the count-in may still be there.

Here's what's written on that tape box, dated 1/31/67:
_____________________________

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS
___________________________________

Here's what's written on the tape box for the SAFETY copy of "heroes and Villains"
_______________________________

“Heroes & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse
3rd verse (all edited together)

1 - bridge to 3rd verse
2 - bridge to fade
3 - cantina
4 - 2nd verse
5 - fade

(The above crossed out sort of...)

2:57 MASTER

PROT COPY
_______________________________

I can't even tell for sure if they're referring to the same edit. There's no way to know any of this for sure, because so much is missing. And I'll admit I sometimes think it's kinda pointless for anyone to say "It was THIS way" or "That song was supposed to be constructed like THIS" when there are so many huge gaps among the tapes themselves. especially when it comes to discussing "Heroes."

-Did Brian actually destroy some tapes back in the day? I think he just might have...

-Are there one-of-a-kind tapes that have been stolen and are now in the hands of collectors? Yes...

-Were there tapes that Brian somehow left behind at a studio after working on them that have since found their way into the hands of collectors? Probably...

-Are there acetates of missing material in the hands of collectors and/or people who were around at the time? Absolutely...

Yes thanks for that - but so sad

[Runaways]

all you thieves suck!

[Curtis Leon]

He's describing that same tape box photo which Ed Roach himself debunked on this board a few weeks ago - I guess that photo and those tape boxes were considered legit until the story came out.

I don't remember Ed debunking it. I think he posted a thread about it a few weeks ago, asking for any information on the subject. After a couple of arguments about the authenticity about it, the thread sort of floundered without any hard information in regards to the tape boxes.

[Curtis Leon]

Bearing in mind that Mark and Alan may have got/found new stuff, what do we believe is missing

1. Multitracks for Wonderful and YAMS
2. Surf's Up second movement

That's a starter for ten..........what else

A proper Barnyard w/ BVs multitrack/vocal, for one. The one on most SMiLE boots is acetate sourced.

[c-man]

there are April Vegetables tracking sessions missing

Really?  Which ones...?  Documentation exists for the April 6 session (at which the upright bass & some other parts were added) and the April 12 session (at Gold Star, where the Vegetables fade section, as it appears on the '93 box set, was recorded).  If you know of some others, please share!   

[Roger Ryan]

there are April Vegetables tracking sessions missing

Really?  Which ones...?  Documentation exists for the April 6 session (at which the upright bass & some other parts were added) and the April 12 session (at Gold Star, where the Vegetables fade section, as it appears on the '93 box set, was recorded).  If you know of some others, please share!   

I believe Alan covers this question with this quote:

What WAS listed in that inventory are the many empty tape boxes from the SMILE era, on titles like "Heroes and Villains," "Cabinessence," "Surf's Up," "Vegetables," etc... they were empty in 1985, they're empty today. I'm certain, however, that excerpts from at least one of them (overdubs onto the last verse of "Vegetables") showed up on one of the SOT discs.

That would be the vibes/keyboard (?) overdub that Brian had such a hard time perfecting. You hear a lot of attempts on the SOT release, but you never hear the master take that shows up on SMILEY SMILE. Note that Mark was unable to include this overdub in the HAWTHORNE, CA stereo mix (and it didn't show up in the GV Box set assembly either).

[BiG GRiN]

Thank you for all the informations, and Yes, Alan Boyd's quote is very sad and disturbing.
Not really encouraging, and I wonder what the Box Set to come can bring to light. Very worrying!
But I'm still hoping for a great surprise a big bag of SMiLE era photos never seen before, and awesome video, maybe?
I hope for something new, never appeared on Boot and in the CD Rom 'Project SMiLE'. I cross my fingers!

[The Shift]

I know Adma's cautioned against it but my mind keeps going back to his "Whoa" post from a couple or three months back!

OK, I'm going to regret posting this, but:  I saw Alan Boyd last night and I asked him specifically what new stuff they had found so far for the SMiLE sessions.  His first answer back to me was, "well, what have you heard?"  Which was a fair question given the avalanche of bootlegs that have gotten out there.  I'm not going to relay the contents of a private conversation, and he of course didn't talk too much about details, but I don't think he'd be too bothered if I relayed that they have found some new stuff.  Of what was told to me, one thing in particular that he said they had just discovered raised an eyebrow and made me go "whoa, really?"

My take on it, based on the minimal information I was told, was that there will be some cool unheard material, but people should also keep their hopes in check, because some of the "holy grail" material just isn't there to be found.  Also keep in mind that Alan and Mark don't have the final say on what gets released.  But you know those guys will do the best they can, and we should all thank them for their efforts.

Seems to me like he wasn't hinting at any new mind-blowing material, so I wonder whether there could be material out there that we've not associated with SMiLE before, and turns out it had SMiLE origins all along? Can't Wait Too Long, fer instance?  Diamond Head?

Or maybe there're sections of familiar SMILE music turned up in unfamiliar places?

Or maybe there's new evidence that Mike the lyrics wrote Surf's Up & Cabinessence, and that's Denis drumming all over the percussive take of He Gives Speeches?

As I say, Adam advised caution against getting carried away… but I've been gnawed away on this for a while and can't help it!

Sorry to dredge this one up Adam but I'm mildly intrigued!   

[JohnMill]

I can't even tell for sure if they're referring to the same edit. There's no way to know any of this for sure, because so much is missing. And I'll admit I sometimes think it's kinda pointless for anyone to say "It was THIS way" or "That song was supposed to be constructed like THIS" when there are so many huge gaps among the tapes themselves. especially when it comes to discussing "Heroes."

-Did Brian actually destroy some tapes back in the day? I think he just might have...

-Are there one-of-a-kind tapes that have been stolen and are now in the hands of collectors? Yes...

-Were there tapes that Brian somehow left behind at a studio after working on them that have since found their way into the hands of collectors? Probably...

-Are there acetates of missing material in the hands of collectors and/or people who were around at the time? Absolutely... [/i]

Fascinating read.  I wonder what that "DUMB ANGEL" tape was that was found among all the other safety masters?  Whatever it was it seemed to have survived the sixties which I guess when speaking of "SMiLE" can only be considered a good thing.  But where is it now?

Also I guess the general consensus I drew from this is that Brian did junk some of the tapes himself as he repeatedly claimed prior to 2003 and that some other tapes are just the victims of misfiling or thievery.  It makes perfect sense since it seems that The Beach Boys' vaults are more porous than most.  I know collectors are missing stuff (some of which has been detailed in this thread) but compare it to other bands and you'll get an understanding at what I'm driving at.  This begs another question...why was tape security so lax when it came to The Beach Boys?

[The Shift]

This begs another question...why was tape security so lax when it came to The Beach Boys?

Partly, I think, because they recorded at so many studios. As has been pointed out (I think by Andrew), whereas the Beatles recorded at Abbey Road almost exclusively, allowing for excellent filing of tapes, Brian's habit of recording where the fancy took him must have led to tapes ending up all over the place – prob why the unused vocal tracks recorded at Columbia ultimately ended up in a landfill.

Put it like this -  if you drank in the same pub every night, you'd know where you'd left your hat. But if you went out on a pub crawl every night, you wouldn't have a clue. 

[buddhahat]

Put it like this -  if you drank in the same pub every night, you'd know where you'd left your hat. But if you went out on a pub crawl every night, you wouldn't have a clue.  

Factor LSD into the equation and your hat (fire helmet?) is probably in multiple places simultaneously, the exact number of which corresponds to the amount of stripes in Brian's vibrating wallpaper minus the number of piebald marks on Mrs O'Leary's Cow AAAARGH don't start that again!!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Fascinating read.  I wonder what that "DUMB ANGEL" tape was that was found among all the other safety masters?  Whatever it was it seemed to have survived the sixties which I guess when speaking of "SMiLE" can only be considered a good thing.  But where is it now?

There's so much questionable and just plain wrong about the photo in question that I'm fairly sure that if there was a tape in the box (or indeed any of the boxes), there wasn't a note of BB music on it: and in this I'm not alone.

[guitarfool2002]

He's describing that same tape box photo which Ed Roach himself debunked on this board a few weeks ago - I guess that photo and those tape boxes were considered legit until the story came out.

I don't remember Ed debunking it. I think he posted a thread about it a few weeks ago, asking for any information on the subject. After a couple of arguments about the authenticity about it, the thread sort of floundered without any hard information in regards to the tape boxes.

Ed debunked the origins of the photo if I recall - the thread got so long it's hard to pinpoint all the details. One issue that stuck out was Ed said it was a Polaroid photo and he never took Polaroids, so it wasn't one of his -  and it was said on pretty good authority later in that thread that it was *not* the Brother tape vaults in that photo.

The issue of the type of tapes and the tape boxes themselves debunks it even more, at least in my opinion. There probably should not be talk of a "Dumb Angel" tape if that photo probably isn't the Brother vault some thought it was years ago.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Someone refresh my memory-what was on the tape labeled 'Dumb Angel' that is in the box set photo? Next to the box labeled 'Endless Sleep'?