Yet another "Pet Sounds" reissue....

[Jay]

I'm surprised the Beach Boys never went the SACD route with Pet Sounds and the planned Surf's Up DVD-A. If they had intended to move more units, the SACD medium would have been more commercially viable than DVD-A. SACD is a much bigger (although still niche) market than DVD-A.

EDIT - for those who doubt the SACD medium, consider checking out the European reissues of the Moody Blues' "Classic Seven" LPs. Three layers; CD stereo, SACD Stereo, SACD 5.1 Surround. PLUS bonus tracks. And they were EXCELLENT.

Listening to The Who's Tommy on SACD nearly had me moved to tears.

[Custom Machine]

This post has been formatted to fit your monitor and edited for content

As far as double blind tests, I would proffer that the average person couldn't tell the difference between 1080i or 1080p ...

Personally, I don't and have never bought in to the snake oil side of hi-fi, from $$$ cable to a lot of sound enhancements. ...  I also take great joy out of reading folks on the (digital) asylum who claim they can hear a difference in USB cable or other digital sources. That’s where I draw the line, ones and zeros are ones and zeros. At my age I can still hear 15Khz no problem, but sadly and only recently my ability for 16KHz went away. Considering I thought I went deaf at a show in 1980, not too bad.

Bwahahhahahah. Centuries? Damn. Did you keep them long enough for the foam grills to start rotting? God I hated those things. Gorgeous with crossovers from hell. I also had some decades before that. Whew. 12" white woofers and midranges that buzzed.

Ah well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me know how the PS SACD sounds - I'm still wary of MoFi. And, unlike vinyl there’s no degradation in the printing process, so waiting won't hurt none.

Dude. Jack Daniels? Really?
I guess that's another argument for another forum.

Yeah, most people are far more easily satisfied with audio/video matters than those of us who tend to obsess over such things.  I too have never gotten into the snake oil stuff, although some of the products have provided me with a good laugh.  

When I first saw a 1080i vs 1080p side by side demo, at CES (maybe around 7 years ago?) I was surprised that the difference was more subtle than I had expected when viewing a moving picture from a normal seating distance, whereas the difference between 480i and 480p, for example, is huge.  Most people think satellite radio has wonderful sound quality and look at me like I'm nuts when I tell them it sounds like hell to me.  I'm still a sucker and subscribe to Sirius XM in my car because I really enjoy the wide variety of music programming, but the listening experience is seriously compromised by the heavy duty data compression.

Unitl I read your post, I hadn't thought about checking out my high frequency hearing in years, and was dismayed to find that I can no longer easily hear 15 kHz in my right ear.  A number of years ago I was playing the same test CD (which goes in increments of 10 - 15 - 18 - and 20 kHz) and I needed to crank up the stereo so that I could hear the 18 k tone.  My kids were in the room and immediately put their hands over their ears and started jumping up and down, yelling that the sound was hurting their ears and asking me to turn it down.  Fortunately there was no dog present.

I well remember the L26 Decades and knew a number of people who had them.  Of course I still have my L100s!  I'm just too nostalgic about 'em to ever get rid of them, so they are in service in the family room, with the LE-25 tweeters having been repaired twice.  The foam grilles were replaced with official JBL cloth grilles years ago, and the originals are in storage in their wood frames in the garage.  And ya know what?  I just realized that the only times the six inch tall Beach Boys ever emerged from the L100 tweeters and began singing, suspended in space about a foot in front of the speakers, was when I had the foam grilles!  That's right, it's never happened since I went to the cloth grilles.  Those crafty JBL engineers obviously knew what they were doing when they introduced foam grilles to the world.  No wonder the Maxell guy is still pictured listening to L100 Centurys, complete with the classic foam grilles!

Yeah, it'll be interesting to actually hear the MoFi Pet Sounds, and how (if at all) it lives up to the claims of extracting previously buried information and obscured details, etc.

Yes ... Jack Daniels!  Really!  Totally great stuff.

[WaxOn]

I love the tech talk...

I have heard some good MFSL stuff, but I wonder if they remove tape hiss, along with the highs, and then add the highs back in. I know they use the Gain II thing as a selling point, but nothing beats a good ear. You need a good musical ear to hear if anything needs to be done at all. So just from a musical standpoint... "it's not the gear, it's the ear".

I’ve got a lot of MoFi stuff, both their original half speed masters and of course the gold disks. I don’t think any of it has ever bowled me over save for their original vinyl. Most if it seems fairly dull and even muddy – which may or may not have a positive effect on Pet Sounds. They even claim the GAIN 2 system brings “warmth and ambience” to the digital medium. http://www.mofi.com/store/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=9
Yeesh. In almost all cases I’ve found better versions – from newer masters to SACD’s.

But, I have to stress different systems handle digital differently. For instance, I bought a (rather pricey) Japanese pressing of XTC Nonsuch almost 20 years ago. My ears bled. So bad it went into the “assorted” heap (after several more attempts). Tizzy and forward, the original sounded just so much better.

Then, after a move and a huge step up in my amp and preamp, one evening while listening to the original, I decided to throw the discarded disk on for comparison. Holy MOLY! It sounded fantastic! No longer tizzy and forward – it was open and smooth. In comparison the original was dark and compressed. Go fig. I guess it just didn’t get along with solid state. On the other side of that coin, the MoFi stuff still sounded just as dark and distant as ever. Maybe I should go back and reevaluate some of those MoFi Ultradiscs.

...Unitl I read your post, I hadn't thought about checking out my high frequency hearing in years, and was dismayed to find that I can no longer easily hear 15 kHz in my right ear.  A number of years ago I was playing the same test CD (which goes in increments of 10 - 15 - 18 - and 20 kHz) and I needed to crank up the stereo so that I could hear the 18 k tone.  My kids were in the room and immediately put their hands over their ears and started jumping up and down, yelling that the sound was hurting their ears and asking me to turn it down.  Fortunately there was no dog present.

They employ "the mosquito" sound at some malls to send teens running. I still can't have the halogen lights in my listening room on (that light the artwork) as they put out a high frequency buzz that seems to only bother me.

For those interested - here's a test site. Prepare to be depressed: http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
Granted - some PC systems can't play it back correctly - but if you've got an ok sound card and a couple of speakers it should work.

It's sad that the 15khz tone I can hear doesn't sound nearly as high pitched/painful as I remember the 17khz one. Technically I guess I can hear the 16khz, but it's more of a "pressure" and not a tone at this point. Not 2 years ago I could hear it just fine.

...I just realized that the only times the six inch tall Beach Boys ever emerged from the L100 tweeters and began singing, suspended in space about a foot in front of the speakers, was when I had the foam grilles!  That's right, it's never happened since I went to the cloth grilles.  Those crafty JBL engineers obviously knew what they were doing when they introduced foam grilles to the world.  No wonder the Maxell guy is still pictured listening to L100 Centurys, complete with the classic foam grilles!

See, that's what I hated about the centuries and similar US speakers at the time. The giant woofers gave people chest cavities the size of a hippo. That's when I moved to smaller drivers that gave a realistic scale to voices and instruments - granted, at the loss of bass. This is no longer the case. I never got a "soundstage" out of my centuries - although I did manage a similar "in front of" effect, but still very much emanating from the speakers. Now, with my setup the sound is far beyond the back wall, and off past the side walls several feet. So dramatic is the soundstage I've never felt any need to move to 5.1/7.1 - the best of which I've heard doesn't create that same sense of space - it's all coming from the speakers again, only a bunch of 'em this time. Not to say it can't be done - but that's a LOT of tweaking. Not to mention $.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to actually hear the MoFi Pet Sounds, and how (if at all) it lives up to the claims of extracting previously buried information and obscured details, etc.

Holding my breath not am I (best Yoda impression).

Yes ... Jack Daniels!  Really!  Totally great stuff.

Hmm. We gotta get you onto Four Roses or Knob Creek or something. Although my tolerance for brown liquor is much diminished, I still have it from time to time. Back in the early 90's (again) at a stereophile show (I think '93) I was in a liquor store (go fig) and found a bottle of original "lead top" 8 year old (as opposed to "old number 8 brand") Wild Turkey. I used to drink this stuff so much, well, I had a college nickname. Anyway, I bought it with the intention of cracking it when the year 2000 rolled around. Party like it's 1999. http://www.bourbonenthusiast.com/forum/DBvd.php?id=416&task=displaybottling  This stuff makes Rare Bird taste like Sterno. The French ruined it - then again, most commercial Bourbon is soooo much worse than it used to be. Old Grand Dad 101 used to be quite good too. Anyway - I still have the bottle as I've never had the heart to open it. It started to evaporate, so it's turned on its side to keep the cork moist. Next it'll probably wind up in the wine cellar!

Anyway, I think this thread is being hijacked again - I tend to do that.

MoFi SACD! Woot!

[The Heartical Don]

  *note to self: take those 200 CDs out of the freezer ASAP. They will smell of fish for sure. And buy green felt markers, a dozen. Idiot!*

[WaxOn]

*note to self: take those 200 CDs out of the freezer ASAP. They will smell of fish for sure. And buy green felt markers, a dozen. Idiot!*

I actually tried the marker thing for a bit. Never bought into the cryogenic thing.
I remember old Sam Tellig was telling people to use armor all on their CD's, freaked me right the f* since I knew it would delaminate the label side if people got carried away, which they did. And why he apologized.

What DOES help is Brillianize™ if the surface is compromised. Polishes the surface and takes away tiny scratches. Good for plexiglass framed artwork and helmet visors too. Just be sure to use a cotton cloth and not paper towels.

You might remember that when burnable CD's first came out, the surface was green to facilitate burning. What I never understood is why they don't sell music CD's that way (well I do - more expensive). Absorbs the stray red light - the theory behind the green marker. The surface itself makes sense. And probably why some mfg's "Audio" CD's are green. While I don't think it makes a direct impact on sound I do think it probably effects jitter on some transports. They've made tremendous leaps in the last 25 years.

[Custom Machine]

Yeah, this thread has been totally hijacked!  

Haven't tried Four Roses yet, but in addition to regular Jack and other old standbys like Crown Royal and Maker's Mark, I do also enjoy Knob Creek, and especially relative newcomers Woodford Reserve and JD Single Barrel.  All good stuff, especially the Woodford and JD Single Barrel.

Light green dye CD-Rs are still available from Taiyo Yuden, now owned by JVC.  Unlike most CD-Rs which are made in Taiwan (although Chinese CD-Rs have recently appeared as well), the Taiyo Yudens are made in Japan and are also sold by Maxell as CD-R Pros.  The light green dye is said to be more stable and longer lasting, superior to the silver colored dye used in mass market CD-Rs which go for a bulk price of 10 to 20 cents a pop, whereas the Taiyo Yudens cost an unconscionable 40 to 50 cents each in bulk!  

If you go to the Music Direct site they'll be happy to sell you the Audio Desk System, which "Trims the Edges of Your Discs (to a 38° angle to reduce laser scatter), Improving Sound and Picture Quality of Any Disc!"  It includes a black marker, since the green marker treatment has been passé for ages.  Normally priced at $1000, be sure to act now as it's on sale for $695!  Not sure you can justify the price?  Put your amp, speakers, or whatever up on eBay, replace them with lesser equipment at a fraction of the cost, and spend the proceeds on something that will truly make a difference in listening enjoyment!

Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce, David, and even Blondie and Ricky.  There!  Now the BBs have at least been mentioned again in this thread.

[WaxOn]

Yeah, this thread has been totally hijacked!

Somebody has to say it.

Take thees thread to Cu-ba!

Haven't tried Four Roses yet, but in addition to regular Jack and other old standbys like Crown Royal and Maker's Mark, I do also enjoy Knob Creek, and especially relative newcomers Woodford Reserve and JD Single Barrel.  All good stuff, especially the Woodford and JD Single Barrel.

Try the Four Roses. At least all hope isn't lost for you yet!
I'm pretty much on Tito's vodka nowadays. And red wine since we have an award winning winemaker friend. Hell to get old.

Light green dye CD-Rs are still available from Taiyo Yuden...

Got a stack of 'em. Don't know why - I only burn CD's for the cars. Believe it or not they're branded memorex whoops - Sony. Hmm, think I got 'em at Costco - they were called "audio" disks in pretty rainbow colors.

If you go to the Music Direct site they'll be happy to sell you the Audio Desk System, which "Trims the Edges of Your Discs (to a 38° angle to reduce laser scatter), Improving Sound and Picture Quality of Any Disc!"...

Yeah, I've seen that. Can't really buy this thing that it goes out the edges. Back when transports were iffy I'd buy off on something to actually stabilize the disk. Now they shove crap in PC's for $40 that are superior to thousand dollar technology from a decade ago.

Best "tweak" I ever got was a record cleaner. That's worth it.

Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce, David, and even Blondie and Ricky.  There!  Now the BBs have at least been mentioned again in this thread.

Don't forget John Stamos!

JOHN!

Ah God, am I going to Hell for that?

[The Heartical Don]

*note to self: take those 200 CDs out of the freezer ASAP. They will smell of fish for sure. And buy green felt markers, a dozen. Idiot!*

I actually tried the marker thing for a bit. Never bought into the cryogenic thing.
I remember old Sam Tellig was telling people to use armor all on their CD's, freaked me right the f* since I knew it would delaminate the label side if people got carried away, which they did. And why he apologized.

What DOES help is Brillianize™ if the surface is compromised. Polishes the surface and takes away tiny scratches. Good for plexiglass framed artwork and helmet visors too. Just be sure to use a cotton cloth and not paper towels.

You might remember that when burnable CD's first came out, the surface was green to facilitate burning. What I never understood is why they don't sell music CD's that way (well I do - more expensive). Absorbs the stray red light - the theory behind the green marker. The surface itself makes sense. And probably why some mfg's "Audio" CD's are green. While I don't think it makes a direct impact on sound I do think it probably effects jitter on some transports. They've made tremendous leaps in the last 25 years.

Interesting, cheers! I understood that the laminated label side has the essential digital code just below it; so that the label side is in fact the super-sensitive side, and not the other, silvery side. Treating the label side with some detergent is therefore dangerous. Am I right?

[Custom Machine]

Interesting, cheers! I understood that the laminated label side has the essential digital code just below it; so that the label side is in fact the super-sensitive side, and not the other, silvery side. Treating the label side with some detergent is therefore dangerous. Am I right?

A typical commercially pressed CD is comprised of a polycarbonate substrate which has a series of pits and lands, representing the digital data, molded into it.  On top of this is an aluminized reflective layer.  A relatively thin coat of acrylic lacquer is applied on top of this reflective layer, with the label, covering all or part of the lacquer, screen printed on top of that. 

So, yes, the any scratches or other damage to the label side could ruin part of the thin reflective layer and the data below it.  The bottom of the CD is not as susceptible to minor scratches as one might think, as the focal point of the laser reading the disc is not the bottom surface of the disc, but on the reflective layer above it.  Plus CDs have redundant error correction data built into them, which can handle many relatively minor scratches.  A water based detergent should pose no problem.  However any solvent based solution, which could include solvent based permanent pens, could react with the lacquer or label and lacquer, potentially damaging the reflective layer underneath.

It's important to keep the bottom side of CD-Rs away from direct sunlight, as over time it can degrade the photosensitive dye layer into which the data is burned.

[The Heartical Don]

Interesting, cheers! I understood that the laminated label side has the essential digital code just below it; so that the label side is in fact the super-sensitive side, and not the other, silvery side. Treating the label side with some detergent is therefore dangerous. Am I right?

A typical commercially pressed CD is comprised of a polycarbonate substrate which has a series of pits and lands, representing the digital data, molded into it.  On top of this is an aluminized reflective layer.  A relatively thin coat of acrylic lacquer is applied on top of this reflective layer, with the label, covering all or part of the lacquer, screen printed on top of that. 

So, yes, the any scratches or other damage to the label side could ruin part of the thin reflective layer and the data below it.  The bottom of the CD is not as susceptible to minor scratches as one might think, as the focal point of the laser reading the disc is not the bottom surface of the disc, but on the reflective layer above it.  Plus CDs have redundant error correction data built into them, which can handle many relatively minor scratches.  A water based detergent should pose no problem.  However any solvent based solution, which could include solvent based permanent pens, could react with the lacquer or label and lacquer, potentially damaging the reflective layer underneath.

It's important to keep the bottom side of CD-Rs away from direct sunlight, as over time it can degrade the photosensitive dye layer into which the data is burned.

Thanks!

[WaxOn]

Interesting, cheers! I understood that the laminated label side has the essential digital code just below it; so that the label side is in fact the super-sensitive side, and not the other, silvery side. Treating the label side with some detergent is therefore dangerous. Am I right?

As Custom Machine said.

The "armor all" thing was supposed to be a tweak - supposedly filling in gaps or greasing the surface of the read side. Point is, people got it on the painted label side of the disk. And, the armor all would penetrate the surface (as is its job) and it would separate from the plastic! Cool!!

Brillianize works great and actually will save DVD's which tend to be a lot more sensitive to scratches (read side). If you got kids or drunks in the house it's a lifesaver. As durable as they are, poor handling can still cause scratches and or hazing which affects read. If you actually scratch the label side so it goes through (silkscreen, lacquer and reflective), there's nothing you can do about it! Go ahead, key that old crappy DCC Pet Sounds and see.

Supposedly the life span of a CD is around 20 years, depending on how they're kept. So the "forever" medium turns out to be less than my LP's. Gold CD's are supposed to be less susceptible to oxidization than ultra-pure aluminum and supposedly have a longer life span. In addition, gold is less porous than the aluminum, thus enhancing playback in theory. Also the reason they use it for cable contacts and pins.

I'm not sure what material they used to make old CD's out of (we're talking commercial), but you couldn't break one to save your life. Only bend it. Now they snap quite easily. So it's not the same "polycarbonate" formulation - at least the ones that have incurred my wrath. Perhaps the new stuff is more stable and transparent? I know there are lots of dye formulations for CD-R's, so it would make sense these would affect "brittleness".

Burp.

This ends the Smiley Smile dot net technical seminar for May 27, 2011.
 
Your hosts, Custom Machine and WaxOn will be available for questions and autographs all week.

Next up in the Seminar Series " Toilet Paper and You : 2 Ply or not 2 Ply".

Thank you, and don't forget to tip your waitress.

[The Heartical Don]

Interesting, cheers! I understood that the laminated label side has the essential digital code just below it; so that the label side is in fact the super-sensitive side, and not the other, silvery side. Treating the label side with some detergent is therefore dangerous. Am I right?

As Custom Machine said.

The "armor all" thing was supposed to be a tweak - supposedly filling in gaps or greasing the surface of the read side. Point is, people got it on the painted label side of the disk. And, the armor all would penetrate the surface (as is its job) and it would separate from the plastic! Cool!!

Brillianize works great and actually will save DVD's which tend to be a lot more sensitive to scratches (read side). If you got kids or drunks in the house it's a lifesaver. As durable as they are, poor handling can still cause scratches and or hazing which affects read. If you actually scratch the label side so it goes through (silkscreen, lacquer and reflective), there's nothing you can do about it! Go ahead, key that old crappy DCC Pet Sounds and see.

Supposedly the life span of a CD is around 20 years, depending on how they're kept. So the "forever" medium turns out to be less than my LP's. Gold CD's are supposed to be less susceptible to oxidization than ultra-pure aluminum and supposedly have a longer life span. In addition, gold is less porous than the aluminum, thus enhancing playback in theory. Also the reason they use it for cable contacts and pins.

I'm not sure what material they used to make old CD's out of (we're talking commercial), but you couldn't break one to save your life. Only bend it. Now they snap quite easily. So it's not the same "polycarbonate" formulation - at least the ones that have incurred my wrath. Perhaps the new stuff is more stable and transparent? I know there are lots of dye formulations for CD-R's, so it would make sense these would affect "brittleness".

Burp.

This ends the Smiley Smile dot net technical seminar for May 27, 2011.
 
Your hosts, Custom Machine and WaxOn will be available for questions and autographs all week.

Next up in the Seminar Series " Toilet Paper and You : 2 Ply or not 2 Ply".

Thank you, and don't forget to tip your waitress.

Thank you. I want a seminar on the next generation of Gillette shaving devices - reportedly they will have 12 blades apiece below the Lubrastrip. Quite a jump from the current 5.

[Mikie]

What was this thread about again?

[The Heartical Don]

What was this thread about again?

Whiskey.

[hypehat]

No Scotch, no credibility. When I can afford it, this is amazing


 

[Mikie]

Buncha alki's on this thread.......

[WaxOn]

Buncha alki's on this thread.......

Not at all!

We're having a technical discussion about which makes a superior coaster for Single Malt Scotches (or cheap, crappy bourbon), the Pet Sounds DCC, the recent Capitol releases and how those might stack up against the new MoFi SACD.

We've pretty much come to the conclusion that LP's are useless (such as the Carl and the Passions double LP) and cumbersome, unless you are serving chips with the drink.

My take was that most of the MoFi releases tend to stick to the bottom of the glass after a while, but find that SACDs work better on the whole compared to a standard redbook CD. Custom Machine seems to think that it's all in my head - and a double blind test would show that both are equal as far as keeping moisture rings off of the furniture.

Oh well, I better get myself ready for the Moodies show! 

[hypehat]

Son, I will defend the '72 CATP/PS pressing to my death 

One can appreciate fine whiskey/whisky and not be an alcoholic, honestly. It is proof of a kind and benevolent God....

[Bean Bag]

Mmmmm.  Quarter Cask. 

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Did anybody receive this yet? Is it worth the money?

[anazgnos]

Mastered from original first-generation analog stereo mixes by Brian Wilson and Mark Linett, Pet Sounds has never sounded better.

This line confuses me.  The stereo mixes were a digital production, no?  I thought they had to sync-up the seperate instrumental & vocal multis and that this was done in the digital domain, so how can there be "analog" stereo mixes?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Don't want the thread to get too off-topic but HELL YEAH on the Moodies!

An SACD of "Long Distance Voyager" would get me to invest in a player no doubt!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah, this thread has been totally hijacked!  

Haven't tried Four Roses yet, but in addition to regular Jack and other old standbys like Crown Royal and Maker's Mark, I do also enjoy Knob Creek, and especially relative newcomers Woodford Reserve and JD Single Barrel.  All good stuff, especially the Woodford and JD Single Barrel.

Light green dye CD-Rs are still available from Taiyo Yuden, now owned by JVC.  Unlike most CD-Rs which are made in Taiwan (although Chinese CD-Rs have recently appeared as well), the Taiyo Yudens are made in Japan and are also sold by Maxell as CD-R Pros.  The light green dye is said to be more stable and longer lasting, superior to the silver colored dye used in mass market CD-Rs which go for a bulk price of 10 to 20 cents a pop, whereas the Taiyo Yudens cost an unconscionable 40 to 50 cents each in bulk!  

If you go to the Music Direct site they'll be happy to sell you the Audio Desk System, which "Trims the Edges of Your Discs (to a 38° angle to reduce laser scatter), Improving Sound and Picture Quality of Any Disc!"  It includes a black marker, since the green marker treatment has been passé for ages.  Normally priced at $1000, be sure to act now as it's on sale for $695!  Not sure you can justify the price?  Put your amp, speakers, or whatever up on eBay, replace them with lesser equipment at a fraction of the cost, and spend the proceeds on something that will truly make a difference in listening enjoyment!

Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce, David, and even Blondie and Ricky.  There!  Now the BBs have at least been mentioned again in this thread.

I'm a scotch man myself. And with scotch, you tend to get what you pay for, so it is an expensive love affair. Talisker, Oban and Johnie Walker Green (I'm  not a single malt snob) or Double Black are my faves. Not big on "regular" whiskey but JD Single Barrel is FANTASTIC!!!

[Wirestone]

Mastered from original first-generation analog stereo mixes by Brian Wilson and Mark Linett, Pet Sounds has never sounded better.

This line confuses me.  The stereo mixes were a digital production, no?  I thought they had to sync-up the seperate instrumental & vocal multis and that this was done in the digital domain, so how can there be "analog" stereo mixes?

In the recent iconfetch interviews, Linett said the PS box -- which was the first appearance of the stereo mix -- was created in the analog domain. It was done back in 95, before Protools was standard.

[Custom Machine]

Did anybody receive this yet? Is it worth the money?

Received an email yesterday from Music Direct stating that my copy has shipped and is scheduled to arrive next Thurs.  I'll report back after some extended listening sessions.